DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Paris Terror Attacks

I do not value America over my own health and my family's well-being. Sorry.

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöller

i highly doubt that anyone would fight over albuquerque if it was on fire. that's essentially what syria is. i know if i was a resident of albuquerque and it was on fire, i probably would not put it out because some things just aren't worth it.

Weren't we talking about people who don't want to defend their country because they are now in a better place? Obviously if there were no where else to go I would defend myself.

You specifically asked about the non-radical Muslims.. No they do not..

Funny thing.. As much as Americans feel about the Muslims that live here in the U.s. Kind of hateful towards them and fearful..

The gangs and killers among our streets consist of ?

How many Muslim gangs do you have running in your neighborhood ?

No muslim gangs in my neighborhood. Actually, no gangs at all in my neighborhood. Or town. I prefer to have it stay that way.

But, you do have a point: I've never heard of muslim gangs in the sense that most Americans think of "gangs".

Most gang bangers kill other gang bangers. Most. Not all.

I don't want them around here either.

However, the radicals tend to go out in search of innocent people. muslim Radicals, Christian radicals, and just plain old "no religion" radicals. Muslim radicals seem to be more prevalent though, don't they?

Not so much a race card as the description of a trait that's been here since Day One. It actually transcends race- because it's universal. It only LOOKS like 'race card' because of the homogeneity of the immigrant waves that wash up on our shoes. No matter who they've been or where they've come from... their 'welcome' has always been pretty much the same. THAT was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I didn't do such a good job of conveying my thoughts. I hope this clarifies it.



Because this:



...is what they'd win for their efforts.

I dunno about you, but if I were a peace-loving Ordinary Joe, I'd be inclined to find a new life where there's at least some infrastructure to support my life....



Slow to develop, that's for sure. Too much historic sectarian tribalism to build consensus. Inertia's a bitch, 40... and these folks have been conditioned by 3,000+ years of clan warfare. You don't change that overnight... and consensus MUST be reached before any such force can be cobbled together.

Don't forget: Shia and Sunni fight each other with more malice than either seem to reserve for even Israel at present. Add to that a demoralized populace still being crushed by brutal dictators, and the political will simply isn't there. Something that must be remembered: the Islamic faith is not a monolith. There are as many different sects of Islam as there are Christianity. All one need to observe is the political climate of Northern Ireland to see how fractured 'like-minded' faith followers can be.

It's a complex set of problems with no clear-cut solution that can be easily implemented. If it were, ISIL would never have gained the ground they did in such short time. Their success is actually based on the fractured dynamic I've just described. They were better organized than the populations they bullied into submission, so short-term victory was assured.

What is NOT a foregone conclusion: ISIL will be able to hold their territory, spread their ideology, and become the spear's point in some 'Armageddon' scenario. Already, their ground holdings are starting to shrink, their outside supply routes are being strangled, and a coalition of governments is uniting to bring the heat. They are beginning to feel the financial effects of being a nation state, and are being forced to pay their followers with a finite cash source. It was a lot easier when they were dividing and conquering... it's a different ball game to keep what you have AND spread what you believe. They were really great at the former... and they're pretty unspectacular at the latter.


My personal take on ISIL: they are the schoolyard bully du jour. They usurped Al Qaeda's influence by playing a different game, but they'll lose out too. 90% of the world simply has no place for them, and already their game is being figured out- and countered.



Here's an interesting POV to add to the conversation. Now seems an appropriate time.

I suppose it COULD be argued that things are a bit different this time. Personally, I rather approve of the tack we've been taking: subsidizing local regional states to handle the bulk of the refugee numbers. I'm not inclined to change that at all. It's a great example of leading from behind... and it's entirely appropriate for the most part.

One of the best things about America is its geographical isolation from the conflict areas of the world. You have to get across huge bodies of water to land here... and that alone has kept us safe, relative to places like France and England. Noone is totally safe from threats like this, but that buffer is a HUGE factor in limiting the frequency of threat.

I think we CAN take in our share of these displaced people, as long as we take all available measures to ensure that those we do bring are vetted properly. Our present system is slow and cumbersome, but that's a plus as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not so sure how high the 'likelihood' actually is, DC. From what I'm gathering, ISIL's main export isn't people... it's ideology. And ideology can spread over the internet to home-growns much easier than physical infiltration.

This is going to sound flippant, but it's really not meant to be. ISIL is the first international terror organization to use propaganda more than weapons to make their inroads. They've succeeded here, because they caught the world unawares. They've managed to grow their ranks through not just graphic images of extreme violence, but also the power of words and ideas.

So.... why not launch an "all-out assault" of logic, facts, humor and ridicule to counter their efforts? A coalition of true Islamic scholars, pitch men and comedy writers like the ones who work for Colbert could easily mount a counter-campaign, debunking their premises, poking holes in their assertions, exposing just how small they really are... and turning the entire world against them.

In other words: use the 'ubiquitous power of the media' to attack, deride and discredit them... in the way some fundamentalist Christians claim are being waged upon them?

Hey- it's war. Anything's fair game, right?

And I would posit that every single American family can trace his ancestry back to poverty-stricken, oppressed, under-represented people who fixed their gaze upon that "Shining city on the hill"... and said to themselves:

"I'll do anything to get to that place."

As a nation whose greatest strength (and very identity) lies in the resolve and determination of its potential citizens to reach these shores, how can we legitimately turn these new people away? Can they not be the next influx of 'great Americans' who add their contributions to the good of The Whole? If not- why not?

It worked for the Irish.
It worked for the Italians.
It worked for the scores of Koreans, Chinese, Eastern Europeans, East Indians and Mediterraneans who now share The American Dream with us all.

What makes these 'new' refugees different from any other group that has come here since 1776?

There is only one point-blank, honest answer to that question, as far as I can see: "They're new, they're 'different'.... and as such, we must fear them more than we've ever feared any other newcomers."



If this was the prevailing thought in America since 1776, we might still be free of British colonialism- but we'd be a nation of only two peoples:

1. English descendants of 'disreputable family history'
2. African descendants brought to these shores under duress and in chains.

That paints a fairly bleak and limited demographic for a nation, if you ask me.

___________________

The lion's share of the refugees that now seek citizenship elsewhere are the very definition of what America has always sought. Anyone who is willing to risk life and limb to come here is exactly what America was designed to accommodate. It's the genius behind our present status as the world's preeminent Superpower.

Please... let's not ever forget the oppression and lack of voice that prompted our secession from the British Empire. The very conditions that prompted the Boston tea party and subsequent bloody battles are now being visited upon the next wave of new potential Americans to seek a place upon our shores.

Our historical advantage over other nations has ALWAYS lain in the diversity of our populace: "E Pluribus Unum."

The day we pre-emptively cull potential American citizens because of 'fear of the unknown' is the day we abdicate the very thing that made us the greatest nation the modern world has ever seen.

I'm a patriot.
I believe in America's vision.
And I refuse to let 40K religious extremists in some far-flung desert dictate how I want My Country to operate.

To succumb to their tactics is the epitome of weakness, as far as I'm concerned.

I am not weak. I can handle and accept New (potential) Americans, even if it means that a handful of 'bad actors' slip in with them.

Why?


Because I believe in US more than I fear them.
Your mileage may vary.

peace/out,
Clemmy.

[quote]There is only one point-blank, honest answer to that question, as far as I can see: "They're new, they're 'different'.... and as such, we must fear them more than we've ever feared any other newcomers."/quote]

Respectfully brother but no one fears them because they're new and different. They are feared because they have within their numbers (and there is no way to genuinely make sure there are none) those who would do us harm.

Bad actors? Okay, I'll ask this question, which of yours or your neighbors loved ones can you bring back once they're gone?

What if one of the 'bad actors' happens to unload his weapon that he snuck into a 'gun free zone' into your children or grand children?

See, the odds of it happening are high but not high enough that you should feel comfortable enough risking the lives of your fellow citizens like that.

The people you want brought in seem to have a huge problem integrating with society in Europe. So huge in fact, that they have set up 'no go zones', they've demanded the halt of Octoberfest, they've broken in on Christian services in Germany to protest, and keep refusing to integrate.

The core problem is ideology. This podcast explains how I feel on the subject as well as anything I could say.

Still Sleepwalking Toward Armageddon

so should we start shipping out all the atheist in this country, since christians believe there's a war on christmas here in America?

you yourself has said you don't believe, so what country would you like to be deported to?

Your posts are well thought out as usual and I would like you to reconsider my position on allowing these refugees into America...

Which of the People you named above were we at war with as they immigrated to our shores? None. We do not risk bringing enemy combatants into our Country.

We have zero problems with the Christian Syrians and this group is the most oppressed in the middle east, bring them to our shores, not those from the ranks we are at war with.
America First. PC last.
This is how America has always approached the refugee situation and what you are suggesting is a break from our
normal operating proceedure.

You're going to pull a muscle stretching that much.

maybe so, but by your logic, you already have appointments lined up for physical therapy.

The whole thing with ocktober fest was a joke. they had what? 400 signatures? and the number of muslims in Germany are how many again?

but i guess you would know if people are reaching or not, since you're the yoga instructor.

Weren't you just ridiculed out of believing all of this after you tried this last time?

And I was just as right then as I am now.

No go zones don't exist. Fox News perpetuated a huge lie.

eh, to be fair, there's a small amount of truth to that.

but i've explained it before. it's the equivalent of a white guy walking in east cleveland.

is something going to happen? no, but people hear stories of very few incidents happening and just run with it as if the entire place is jacked up.

but you know how Erik is. people can tell him and show him the truth, but Fox news already has convinced him.

If that's what "ridicule" means to you...

Meanwhile the French police raided an apartment this morning killing one suspect and a women strapped a suicide vest to herself and detonated it.

Since I seriously doubt that vest was meant for use in the apartment, what innocent civilians do you feel it was meant for? Shopping Mall, soccer match, restaurant, bank? How many innocent victims were saved today from the religion of peace?

That was proven wrong, if you're smart enough to look it up. They used that period in time to bash Jindal for something they've said for years. And they are saying it again.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/eri...of-no-go-zones/

"So, is Molenbeek a “no-go zone”? The Independent seems to think so: “Paris terror attacks: Visiting Molenbeek, the police no-go zone that was home to two of the gunmen.” NewsBusters, a blog that dogs the mainstream media, appears to think it qualifies: “Two Paris Terrorists Lived in Supposedly Mythical ‘No-Go Zone’ Neighborhood in Brussels.”"

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/were-cnn-and-foxs-no-go-zone-apologies-excessive/article/2559204

"This, even though the New York Times in 2005 reported on areas in France that have "become a symbol of France's failure to integrate millions of Arab and African immigrants — many of them Muslims — and their French-born children and grandchildren.”

A freelance journalist who frequently covers and travels throughout the Middle East, told the Washington Examiner media desk that these areas do still exist, though emphasized that “no-go zone” is an unofficial label. He requested anonymity out of concern for the subject matter’s sensitivity.

"I know that these so-called 'no-go zones' exist, primarily in the northern Paris suburbs,” the journalist said. “They are certainly not closed-off communities to other non-Muslim individuals. While non-Muslims probably do tend to avoid certain areas, the problem has more to do with assimilating these communities into mainstream French society and its associated ideals and norms.”"


Oh gosh. I didn't post from Breitbart, as foolish people discount anything from there without any reason behind their decision.

All 8 Terrorists Named so Far Had EU Passports (none are refugees)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...s-a6738821.html

And so it begins.

What's beginning?

Oh I made a post, maybe even in a different thread stating that with each terrorist attack around the world there is going to be a race by some to prove refugees had something to do with it and by others to prove they had nothing to do with it.. it's going to be a big part of the aftermath story of every attack for a long time.

That's true -- though it seems to me that data (even small number statistics), is better than rabble rousing and ridiculous conjecture.

Where's the fun in that?
Data is boring.
Ridiculous conjecture (and projection) is much sexxxier.

I was just making the observation that it's likely to happen, wasn't really using it as any kind of justification as to whether we should or should not allow refugees here... because it's going to happen whether we do or not.

And yes, data is an important and useful tool... what data do we have?

Is this the kind of people we are turning away? This video is tough to watch without breaking your heart for these folks.

Joints, beer but little religion in lives of Paris attack brothers
AFP By Alexandre Hielard
3 hours ago

Brussels (AFP) - In the Brussels bar they ran before the authorities closed it down for being a drug den a few weeks ago, brothers Brahim and Salah Abdeslam were known to be fond of drink and a joint, according to friends.

As they drank their beer in Les Beguines, their nightspot in the Belgian capital's largely immigrant Molenbeek area, there was no sign in their behaviour that they were radical Islamists who would take part in the Paris attacks.

"We're still in shock," said Youssef, a local man in his thirties wearing a white tracksuit with a backwards red baseball cap, standing in front of the bar's closed shutters. "They were friends of ours, big smokers, big drinkers, but not radicals."

Their family is also in shock, with a third brother, Mohamed, who was arrested but released without charge after the attacks, lighting candles for the victims on the balcony of the family home during a vigil in Molenbeek on Wednesday.

The last time many people heard of Brahim and Salah was on November 5 when local authorities shut down the bar on the ground floor of a red brick building after police said it was "used for the consumption of banned hallucinogenic substances".

"There was a strong odour of drugs and the ashtrays contained partly smoked joints," the closure notice said.

Just over a week later it emerged that Brahim, 31, had blown himself up outside a cafe in Boulevard Voltaire during the Paris attacks.

Salah, 26, is now one of France's most wanted men for his alleged role in the atrocity.

"Lots of people were smoking drugs there, it went too far," said Abdel, 34, who has been coming to the bar since his teens.

"The atmosphere was more festive under the old owner, you could play Playstation there. Of course there was dope there, like in most of the bars here, but it was discreet.

"With Brahim, as soon as you went in he jumped at you to try to sell you something."

Islam seemed to have little role in their lives, friends said.

View galleryA woman walks past the bar "Les Beguines", …
A woman walks past the bar "Les Beguines", owned by Brahim Abdeslam, one of the suicide bo …
"On Fridays (when Muslims hold their main weekly prayers) they would stay smoking on the terrace. I never saw them at the mosque," said Karim, 27, who lives in the flat above the bar.

Jamal, a teacher and friend of the brothers, agreed.

"They weren't practising Muslims. They didn't have big beards, they wore jeans and sneakers, and they drank their Jupiler (popular Belgian beer brand) like everyone else," he said.

"Their lives were the same as all young people: they liked football, going clubbing, coming back with girls."

Salah was known as a ladies' man who would buy aftershave and teeth whitening products at the local market.

"He was very charming, he liked to take care of his looks," said market manager Pharred.

View galleryPolice officers pat down a woman before she enters …
Police officers pat down a woman before she enters the square in Molenbeek where people were taking …
- Wrong people, wrong time -

So how did they turn into jihadists?

"Meeting the wrong people at the wrong time," explained Jamal.

Salah Abdeslam was fired as a technician on the Brussels trams for skipping work at the beginning of 2011 -- and around the same time he was arrested for robbery along with another Molenbeek native called Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

Police only made the link after the Paris attacks, but Abaaoud went on to become one of Belgium's most notorious jihadists and, allegedly the mastermind of the massacre in the French capital.

"We can assume that Abaaoud taught him taqiyya -- the Islamic theology of dissimulation -- to fool the security and intelligence services," said Mathieu Guidere, a French terrorism expert.

Under this strategy, set out in manuals published by the Islamic State group in Syria and Iraq, would-be "martyrs" can smoke cannabis or blaspheme to hide their religion from the authorities.

It appeared to work.

Brahim tried to travel to Syria in January this year but was stopped at the Turkish border. Belgian authorities interviewed him and Salah on their return but took no further action, and did not put them on a terror watch-list, saying they showed "no sign of a possible danger".

Their family was deceived too.

"My brothers were normal," Mohamed Abdeslam said earlier this week.

Linkarooski

As I am endeavoring to learn how to tell a Killer Muslim from a Normal Muslim I must ask...

Were all those Turks who booed the moment of silence for the killings in France during a Turkish/France soccer match, were they all ISIS members?

Turkey fans boo minute's silence for Paris victims
ISTANBUL
Turkish fans booed during the minute's silence for the victims of the Paris attacks before their national team drew 0-0 with Greece in a friendly international soccer game on Tuesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/1...I12aacPK7xcG.97

Are you also endeavoring to learn the difference between a gang banger with dred locks and a seminary student with dred locks?

how about a proud southerner with a confederate flag decal and a white supremacist with a confederate flag decal?

how about a financial planner that is going to try to grow your wealth and a financial planner that is going to embezzle your money?

if you figure out the Muslim one or any of these other ones, please let us all know.

No, this thread is about Paris and Muslims.

I liked yesterdays DC personality better that today's.

I don't think the intention to block Syrian refugees is totally cold stone them permentantly, I think the new speaker said it - it's until we can do our due diligence on checking to see who the heck we are welcoming into our nation, and if they're a threat or not.

The overwhelming amount of governors that have refused to follow Obama (which he has already threatened to veto anything about his Syrian refugee ordeal) on this matter is quite overwhelming.

Also, I can't watch anymore surveillance video on the shootings. It's just too messed up.

This seems to me to be a reasonable and prudent way to approach the situation. It will never fly with the Liberal Agenda though.

Not many *logical* things these days seem to fit the liberal agenda...

Luckily for the sake of The United States of America, you and I are still here.