DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel will start for the rest of the season.

I'm hoping those CB's have the physical tools to improve and just need to get more comfortable in the system. I've seen enough of Manziel to believe that his highest possible ceiling is physically thinner version of Doug Flutie. I don't believe that, that's the guy that will lead this team to competence.

Having said that, I know it's hard to believe, but I truly do hope that I'm wrong and that Manziel turns into an elite quarterback (hell, at this point I'll take above average) because that means he's not only got skills that I don't believe he has, but also that he's got his head on straight and truly shut out all of the off the field things that cost him, and us more than a year of his career.

As for built in excuses, it will be more than a little obvious to those who are not fanboy's of Manziel whether or not he's playing like a professional quarterback or if he's making a living on one read passes and playground football. If he progresses, and I'm right that the defense is improving then that should translate into wins. If I'm wrong about the defense or he stagnats we'll keep losing. Both have to happen for us to succeed and above all else I want to see wins. I don't care who gives them to us.

Because backyard improvisation won't work in the NFL? I'm sure the thought was to bring him in, coach him up on what it means to be a professional quarterback and then when necessarily let him fall back on what he did in college. The problem is that we've seen nothing but what we've seen in college although some here would say that he's damn near Payton Manning with his pre-snap reads and ability to work the WR's progression like Tom Brady.

Who are these "fanboy's of Manziel?" You mean the people that say they doubt he is going to be great, but are willing to give him a shot? Those fanboys?

bruh i'm tripping hard. he says the CB's are young and have a chance to grow, yet somehow he's seen enough of a second year QB with not even 5 starts in his career?

my head hurts.

I remember Mannings first 2 years, it wasnt very pretty as he had to learn the NFL game. Hell many were writing derek carr off at this time last year. Microwaved football players doesnt work. When there is slow and steady you have something good. Not being patient and letting it develop one way or the other is just foolish. If he fails he fails, if he keeps growing then we have our QB.

No, at least those guys are still shooting for plausible deniability I'm more speaking of the ones that are claiming that he's going to be our franchise quarterback for the next 10 years and that the Browns and Pettine specifically have been trying to retard his growth.

And yes Swish, Manziel has had ample opportunity to earn playing time and he pissed it away. He couldn't beat out JOSH FRIKKIN' MCCOWN until the season was lost. Aside from the lawfirm of Manziel, Gordon and Gilbert, I want to believe that the rest of the team is at least making improvement a priority and therefore cut them some slack.

I hope you end up being right, I just havne't seen the "slow and steady" yet.

Carson Palmer was a slow and steady guy.. He sat for a year before they put him in.

Does anyone remember how bad Elway was? Wow.. Had he come here, I doubt our fans would have allowed him to remain without beating on him LOL Hindsight is a funny funny thing.

I hope Johnny is half the QB either of those guys are/were.

I can't recall anybody saying that he's a sure thing. I don't see it that way, and I like him (or more accurately, have hope for him) as much as almost anybody on here.

I hope Manziel "wrecks the league" so to say... I don't think anyone can say that what we saw last week wasn't a huge improvement over last year or even the beginning of the year. If he continues to grow and mature and learns how to play from within the pocket as well as game plan to roll him out every now and then he can be a very successful QB just like a Russell Wilson type. If we can say he's our guy going into next year then maybe we can draft him some help at WR and get him some weapons to work with.

Is Andy Dalton a franchise QB or is he just a good QB with great weapons around him? I believe he is just average to good with great weapons. Why did people think Derek Carr was just average last year and now he's improved, because of Amari Cooper and getting him some weapons on offense. We can only hope that we are in that position next year.

Worst case scenario is if Manziel digresses or gets hurt in the next game or two and we still don't know what we have and then we are forced to draft another QB like Lynch next year.

It's hard to show slow and steady growth when you get a start, take a year, don't get starter reps in camp, come off the bench cold, get another start, sit for four more weeks without starter reps, come in in relief, get a start....

Even considering that inconsistent contribution, he has still looked better the last couple weeks, last week specifically.. people just need to remember that slow and steady growth isn't linear.. he could drop a turd this week for all we know, then come back and do well the next week.. we just need to see a trend upward and I'm sure the staff is looking for specific improvement rather than just yards and TDs.. though those would be nice.

j/c

All I can say is I wish JFF the best of luck! The best thing that could happen for us and this team is if we have answered our question at the QB position!

Go Johnny Go!

It's even harder when you don't have the physical tools.

I'll leave it at that and just say that I have faith in Pettine in this regard. He doesn't seem to play players unless they've earned the nod and while my gut tells me he's starting Manziel just to "answer the question" as opposed to because he's earned it, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I personally haven't seen the improvement despite the yards he put up last week. I hope our coaching staff has and that's the reason he's starting. Either way, I'm glad he is.

[quote] I'm more speaking of the ones that are claiming that he's going to be our franchise quarterback for the next 10 years and that the Browns and Pettine specifically have been trying to retard his growth./quote]

Who are those guys? I really haven't seen a whole lot of that. Bums like Couch, BQ, and Weeden got a lot more love from fans before they ever did anything good. I see more negative comments about JM than anything else.

Did you say physical tools? Tell me where he is lacking other than height? His arm is strong. He is agile. He is quick. He has huge hands. Are you Randy Neuman and just hate short people?




Please enlighten me w/your expert evaluation. You really didn't see him throw from the pocket? You didn't see the accuracy? You didn't see him extending plays? You didn't see him making reads? You didn't see him alerting his OL to possible blitzers? You didn't see the touch throw to Barnidge for the TD?

Did you watch the game?

You know, I hate defending Manziel. He is not the kind of player I would typically defend, but you and a few others, make it really hard not to. Your bias screams off the page!

Apparently he has a near-photographic memory - so I've read - which obviously can't hurt.

I've seen him have to put his whole body into throws that McCown was making flat footed, I'm seen plenty of passes flutter that less highly rate quarterbacks throw on a rope, I've seen him fumble much more than would be expected from one with such "huge hands" (maybe it's just a weak grip?), I've seen him get chased down by 300 interior lineman and I've heard him explain that he can't see over the other guy's linemen.

I did watch the game and I saw a singular lack of touch on passes that require it and ducks that ones that don't, a penchant for throwing behind receivers (as bad as Hoyer) slowing them down to limit YAC, I did see the nice pass to Barnidge but a lot more of his passes looked like a shortshop trying to hit first base. He does have a quick release when he decides to get rid of it, I'll grant him that, it just appears to me that unless he winds up it takes an awful long time for the ball to get there.

Even if you disagree with all of that (although I can't objectively understand how you can) I simply don't understand what you think makes me biased? I don't like the player, and I don't like the person he appears to be, but I have no alterior motive than to see this team win. We can disagree on what we see and what we think, but do you think I lost a bet to the guy and so can't evaluate him (to the best of my ability) fairly? I have no reason to personally dislike Johnny Manziel I just don't like him on my favorite team because I don't think he's good for it.

Stetson, I have to respectfully disagree about Johnny's arm. I think, in fact I am pretty sure, he has a stronger arm than McCown. It's harder to believe a 6-foot guy can have a strong arm, but I think he is the exception that proves the rule.
I could be wrong, and I hear what you are saying about him putting his body into throws. But I think he has a plus NFL arm.

Fair enough, but even McCown had some really nice things to say about how he has been playing.... like well beyond just normal professional courtesy stuff.

Alec does this for him.

Fair enough, it's just my observation that when I see other smaller QB's throw the ball like Brees or Wilson they don't need to put as much full body torque into the throws to achieve the same results.

Right now he is compensating for bad mechanics. He doesn't set his feet and everything gets screwed up from there.

say what?

Yep, they are making things up again.

That could be true. Sometimes he will throw a bullet from a weird angle, and of course he has hit some nice deep passes. If you guys are right, it could mean that his arm can get better.
But man, that TD to Barnidge, while more touch than arm strength, was beautiful! When you remember he is only 22, there is reason for hope.

Anyone who has an issue with Manziel's arm talent is just making things up.

If he plants his feet and steps into his passes he can throw a good 65+ yards. He did that easy on his pro day when he didn't have to worry about a pass rush and could think about his mechanics.



If you can't see that, I think you are making up that you are a coach. Maybe you are a track coach or something.

He has plenty of arm talent. He just has bad mechanics.

Yes.

Look Barnie.............I never said I AM a coach. I was a coach. If I were still coaching, I wouldn't have time to come on here. If you wanna turn this into a personal pissing contest by saying I am/was a track coach, go ahead. That will put you in the category of the other guys on here that suck.

Footwork is essential to almost every qb, other than maybe Rodgers, who can make any throw from any stance. Stop acting like this is unique to Johnny. You are trying to deceive your readership and I will call you on it.

Johnny's arm is fine. I don't even really like the guy that much, but I am very tired of a few of you making crap up.

You made the accusation that I was making things up and I just made the observation that you don't seem to know what good QB mechanics looks like. If you did you wouldn't be nagging at me every post.

This passive/aggressive stuff is getting a little old from you.

I gave you a compliment on another thread. I respond to each post. I have nothing against you, other than you "appear" to be very biased against JM.

I understand the mechanics of the qb position very, very well. Now, you can call me a liar. That's fine. But, I think there are people on here who have read my posts since 2001 that know that I have always talked about mechanics and emphasized them.

Choose your battles.

And yet you accused me of making things up. So either you were upset that I stated something that was entirely correct and lied that I was making things up or you don't know that I am correct.

What?

I explained that mechanics are important to every qb. You act like it is is exclusive to JM.

I am saying that you and Stetson are making things up regarding his lack of arm strength. Nothing more. Nothing less.

As soon as you show me where I said it was only Johnny who has this problem I might believe that.

Stetson even acknowledges that the other opinion seems valid he just doesn't notice Brees or Wilson with such a strange throwing motion.

So either stop your finger pointing and saying others have an agenda or start breaking down some film with some demonstrations where I am wrong. I've posted some before to give you the chance to rebutt and quite frankly I'm am tired of you trying to take the easy way out when we bump heads on this.

Put up or shut up.

Brees throws from his tippy-toes. Are you kidding me.

You and Stetson are way off base. Manziel's arm is stronger than many qbs in the league. Do some freaking research.

Oh, your head won't explode if you admit you are wrong once in awhile. Seriously.

I already said Johnny has plenty of arm talent. You still haven't really quoted where I have said something wrong. Maybe you are worried about your own head exploding.

yea, he does throw off his toes.

The first one I posted just because it's pretty awesome. The second and third ones will give you good views of Drew Brees feet.