DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Running game.

I've said this before multiple times, we don't have any maulers on the line. they are cupcake when it comes to straight up blocking their guy man on man. We have a finesse line, and thats fine.

Shanny's system helped bring out our strength in the O line, which was the guys a very smart and very agile. the zone blocking scheme, what a beauty that was. we still had trouble converting 3 and short situations, but that comes with time.

We had a run game with the EXACT same O line, and at least the same RB from last year in Crow.

so in my opinion, we need the scheme back. if we are hell bent on having our guys block man on man, than we need to draft some straight up nasty O linemen in the draft, because our current group will never cut it.

I like our backs.. the issue is the o-line. Not getting enough push off the line, and honestly doesnt look like they want it more than the person lining up in front of them.

Running game? We have a running game?

I liked Crow last year, but just looks like he doesn't even want to try to shake-n-bake or truck anyone this year.

Duke seems to be able to squeeze inbetween the gaps, I'm rather impressed with his running. But, with his frame, how many running plays can you dial up for him before he gets crushed/hurt?

The offensive line, and Swish said it best - we just don't have any maulers. No killers there.

Obviously with pretty much the same o-line, Shanny was able to generate a solid running game, so maybe scheme even factors in.

Whatever the this-n-thats, our run game sucks. It was the one thing pretty much everyone banked on being the strength of the offense, and reality hit and it's all but opposite of that notion.

@swish

People keep saying that, but Bitonio was the only one drafted with zone blocking in mind. Here's some excerpt from scouting reports.


http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/7535/mitchell-schwartz

The Browns' staff believes RT Mitchell Schwartz will "excel" in new OC Kyle Shanahan's zone-blocking scheme.
Coach Mike Pettine previously hinted Schwartz could move to guard, but it appears Schwartz will stick at right tackle while John Greco mans the right guard spot. At 6-5, 320, Schwartz is more of a mauler than the athletic lineman one would expect to thrive in a zone scheme. The Browns need their offensive line to take a step forward to improve on last year's bottom-five rushing performance. Shanahan will bring more of a commitment to the run. Sat, Jun 14, 2014 11:34:00 AM

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/john-greco?id=238

Takes good angles, but his long foot speed is not evident, but he does strike with force when landing...In straight-up blocking, he is a good mauler...Has adequate anchor and slide in pass protection, showing the vision to read and react to twists and games. Will be better when he improves his hand placement...Good working down the line of scrimmage, but needs to be lighter on his feet sliding back in pass protection.

http://www.sbnation.com/2008/9/17/616259/alex-mack-center-californi

Run Blocking: Mauling run blocker who uses his powerful lower body to push back tackles. Incredibly adept at cut blocking. Exceptional trap blocker. Mack is a really good finisher.

Bitonio also isn’t strong enough, evident by his lowly 22 bench presses at the NFL Combine. He certainly doesn’t fit the bill for a mauler tackle, plowing defensive lineman.

http://nevadasagebrush.com/blog/2014/04/...y-his-position/

But for what Bitonio lacks in brute strength and size, he makes up for in athleticism. At the combine, he was one of five lineman who ran the 40-yard dash below five seconds and set the second best time in the 3-cone drill at 7.37 seconds. Bitonio is a prototypical zone-blocking guard who can make blocks at the second level.

I couldn't find a decent one for Joe Thomas, but I think he could play well in either scheme and has both strength and agility.

I think Mack could play in either system as well. So really is system should work equally fine.

Crowell is better when he doesn't dance. His stop & start is not a move that has panned any gold for him or for us. Can't seem to avoid blockers and piles of people.

Running to daylight like old tailbacks did might help. He is a real liability at this point and the standard draw or middle run is as predictable as it has proven to be about worthless. Our OC might help this with dual backs and excluding our FB more often.

Just to stick this in, some of the offense shown by Cincy was interesting in the first quarter, Formations worked. We need better scheming in the blocking IMO.

I like Duke, but I don't see how anyone can say he is a better runner than Crow. He isn't. Crow is the new guy to pick on, much like Mingo and Whit.

Crow has been much better at running the ball than Duke. Duke is best used as receiver. I see him in the Sproles role. Perhaps Bernard.

I mentioned this on another thread, but I think that Crow plays more because he is way better in pass protection than Duke. Duke has the want-to, but he gets blown-up a lot.

I think our running game struggles for two main reasons:

--Flip doesn't stick w/it. He gives up on it too early. I debated some guys on this before the season when they claimed our running game would be great. We see how that turned out.

--Our linemen are not power run blockers and it's stupid to believe they can excel in that role. We miss Shanny a whole bunch.

the scouting report and the play on the field is completely different.

please, show me plays where schwartz week in and week out routinely blows up people on the line.

then i'll believe it.

Wilbert Montgomery had some things to say about the running game today:











http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/11/browns_wilbert_montgomery_cant.html

At least our coaches are on the same page. . .

Wow. Looks like things are unraveling quite rapidly.

So far we have multiple defensive players taking shots at the defensive scheme (and coordinator), running back coach taking shots at the offensive coordinator, and the head coach unhappy with the GM (or whoever was trying to trade some of our players).

And these are the things in public.

I know. I'm, well, I didn't realize it was this bad.

Not much tape out there on NFL guards that isn't college highlights.

It would be more interesting if you could show me how you see lumbering 6' 5" 320 Schwartz as an agile zone blocker.

his blocking was way better last year than it is this year.

so i'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

Yea, evidence is beginning to mount that it might not just be Pettine, Farmer, Scheiner, Haslam that are not on the same page but the staff under Pettine seems to be questioning a lot too.

I mean I could get that the RB coach is lobbying for his RBs to get used more.. that wouldn't be the end of the world, but when you put it with everything else.. it's not looking good.

the other part that I don't like is the "I don't know why we do that" or "I don't why that happens".. do these guys not meet? Do they not come up with the game plan as a group? It seems like everybody within out organization from the owner to the position coaches operate in a vacuum and never talk to each other.

When there is no leadership (or the leadership stinks), people will look start to look out for themselves.

Wilbert Montgomery needs everyone to know it's not his fault the run game stinks because he will probably be looking for a job in 2016.

Everybody is familiar with the Patriots saying, "Do your job".. well there is a second part to that which is implied I think and the whole saying would go like this, "Do your job, and trust others to do theirs"... and I think that is where we fall short, it seems like that trust of others isn't there. And yes, that starts at the top.

We are still running a zone blocking scheme.

I think his blocking is better this year than last year btw. Especially the last part of last year.

Well, our Fullback is one of the worst I've ever seen. Johnson constantly misses blocks or gets blown up. Reminds me of Owen Marecic.

And Duke Johnson got killed trying to block Shazier. No leverage and bad technique.

I don't think our run plays are very well designed. Other teams seem to know exactly when to run blitz effectively.

I'm not going to put this on Crowell. Yes, he makes his share of missed cuts but even Adrian Peterson wouldn't get much more in this offense.

Diehard, the difference between last year and this can't be fullback play, because we didn't even have one last year! I think you're right about play design, and that means the ZBS.
Wilbert sounds pissed off. It doesn't help that we often fall so far behind that by at least the fourth quarter, we are passing every down.

Yeah, I know. This year's scheme has been to use a FB. But it's been terrible production at best.

Watching the pressers right now.

O'Connell is young but seemed impressive.

Wilbert seemed exasperated. As in a "I wish I was anywhere else but Cleveland" exasperated. He also doesn't seem all that intelligent.

Hafey was hard to read. Started out at buzzword bingo. Seems like a Pettine clone. Lots of double talk. Said they will play the players that practice best that week, but then talked about playing the same group of guys for continuity. Seems really young and inexperienced. Inexperience is a common theme in this organization.

Still need to watch Weaver and I thought Joker did one but didn't see it.

All off-season we talked about being a power running team. Then we ignored the fullback position. Jerome Felton, the best fullback in the league, was a free agent. No interest (he signed with the Bills). Jalston Fowler is available in the draft. Nope.

You know we had no interest? Maybe we talked to him and he declined.

I've often seen fans blame the team for not signing this or that FA. FAs are not on a shelf at the FA store. There has to be dialog and the player must be willing to join the team. If not, we don't get him.

We're not always privy to whether or not the team talked to those players. I can't see a good reason for the team to advertise/publish having talked to someone who didn't want to sign here.

I'm certain there have been FAs that the team didn't want for one reason or another. But every one we didn't sign doesn't mean we didn't want them and didn't try to make a deal.

There was no reported interest and the fact that we largely ignored the position the rest of the off-season leads me to believe that he was not an option. Also, compensatory picks.

Ok.

However, that there was no reported interest does not indicate that there was none. Or that we didn't talk to him and he declined.

That we largely ignored the position the rest of the off-season could be what it looked like from the outside, our viewpoint, while they were leaving no stone unturned trying to find one. Perhaps he was our only option rather than not being one at all.

I'm not sure what compensatory picks have to do with it but I'm certain it makes some sense since you brought it up.

I played Duke in my fantasy league this week, so I paid even closer attention to him. He seem winded very early on in the game. Seems like every play he made, he signaled to the sidelines to get a breather.

The complete lack of a run game hamstrings this offense. I don't know if it's the inability of Crowell or the fact that the O-Line can;t run block or if our running plays are too easily diagnosed. What I do know is that our running game can basically be described at Crowell running straight into a mash up of people for a 2 yard gain. Time after time after time after time.

My leaning is that its the line or the plays as when you see Crowell in some space on the rare run that breaks or on a pass in the flat, he runs well with good wiggle.

Having Erving playing against Pitt certainly didn't help. He had zero push the whole game.

It's amazing how well our QB position has done with no running game.

We hear about everything with this team. They want people to know they are trying. We heard nothing about any fullbacks. Nothing.

The running back position has been devalued the last 5 years or so but I think a good back or 2 is still vital to a team. It may have become a passing league but there is nothing wrong with having a strong run game and just a decent passing game. That's the way many teams have won in the past and can still win now. Of course you need to be able to stop the run on D. We had a sound plan last offseason but it just hasn't worked out for some reason. Could it be coaching and schemes as well as some questionable personnel moves?

Browns assistant coaches shed light on a few dark issues
Nov 19, 2015 -- 6:00am

The Morning Kickoff …

Notes from the last Browns’ practice before their bye week recess …

The assistants talk: Except for the coordinators, who by NFL rule are made available to media once a week, assistant coaches generally are spared the occasional pestering of reporters. The Browns lifted the curtain to assistant coaches this week. Here are the highlights of those Q&A sessions:

I say nothing! I say a lot: Running backs coach Wilbert Montgomery has been one of the more candid assistants in the past, but he bit his tongue hard on Wednesday. Montgomery’s frustration with the state of the running game was quite apparent.

It started with this layup: What’s the state of the running game?

“That’s a tough question, especially being the running backs coach, because it’s hard when you don’t get opportunities to carry the ball,” he said.

OK, let’s get to specifics. Why does Duke Johnson disappear in the second half of games?

“That’s a question you have to ask Flip (offensive coordinator John DeFilippo) because I don’t call the plays. I’m not the play caller so I put guys in the game based on, like I said, we call personnel groupings and they run out on the field based on that, but I’m not the play caller.”

Are you satisfied with the commitment to the running game?

“I can’t answer that one. I can’t answer that question because you look at the history of the guys that I had … (laughter) … they got the ball.”

Can you explain the periodic use of the Wildcat formation, which doesn’t seem to be very effective?

“That’s a tough one, too (laughter). Most people put in a gadget or two so it takes the defense of opposing teams that you’re going to play in the future. It gives them other things to work on because they know you have it in your package. It takes some time putting that in, but you have to be more innovative and do a lot of things with that. When that came in the league a few years back, it was the new thing. It’s still a part of the game and you just have to work it if you want to be good at it. We have so many other things we have to work on to get good at.”

How do you explain the number of negative runs in the Pittsburgh game?

“I was shocked at Pittsburgh because Pittsburgh was never a penetrating defense. They were always a key-read defense, a two-gap defense. They saw where you were going then they would run and make tackles. They played fast. This Pittsburgh defense was different. They penetrated, and that was the difference in the ball game because now, they’re getting you off your spot, they’re getting you off your landmark and that becomes a trouble for the backs and for the offensive linemen and the tight ends.

“Now, you work against something that you thought they were and then you get in a game, they’re doing something totally different. Those guys were big and strong and explosive, and they were getting up field on us.”

This is a fairly amazing admission. Our scouting report on the Steelers made a point of new defensive coordinator Keith Butler switching to a one-gap, penetrating scheme up front. Montgomery’s comments suggest the Browns did not do a good job of advance scouting the Steelers.

Jack of all trades, master of none: Assistant offensive line coach George DeLeone, who took on double duty when line coach Andy Moeller departed in September, conceded that first-round pick Cameron Erving may have been better off in his first season by concentrating on one position rather than all five along the offensive line. Erving’s NFL debut at left guard in Pittsburgh, understandably, was not a rousing success.

“In the short term, he probably would have been better off if we left him to one spot exclusively, but our goal was to get him on the field as soon as we could,” DeLeone said. “We had to mix it in there, mix and match get him dribs and drabs to get him in games. That helped him in the game Sunday in the fact that that wasn’t his first real action. From that standpoint, it helped him.

“From his development mentally, I think he’s a smart enough kid that I think in the long run, it’ll help him, but I don’t know in the short term if he just played one position, obviously, he would have gotten more exposure there and probably would have done a little better.”

The Gilbert chronicles: Defensive backs coach Jeff Hafley said that second-year cornerback Justin Gilbert was a healthy scratch in the Pittsburgh game because of a less-than-scintillating practice week. Gilbert sat while rookie sixth-round pick Charles Gaines made his NFL debut.

“I think what everybody has seen is that the guys that go out and practice the best and the guys we believe give us the best chance, we are going to play those guys,” he said. “We have been through a lot of them this year. You have seen just about everyone in our room has played. That is the way we believe in. You have to go out and you have to practice.

“If a guy is practicing the best and he shows it, you have to go with that guy. There is no magic to this game. It is not a fairy tale where you have a bad week of practice and then you play a guy and he goes in and plays great. It doesn’t happen. We have to keep working to get him better. I know that. We have and we will continue to.”

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=51821

What a freaking mess.

Do other crap teams have these problems, or is it only us?

Jack of all trades, master of none: Assistant offensive line coach George DeLeone, who took on double duty when line coach Andy Moeller departed in September, conceded that first-round pick Cameron Erving may have been better off in his first season by concentrating on one position rather than all five along the offensive line. Erving’s NFL debut at left guard in Pittsburgh, understandably, was not a rousing success.

He took 90% of the reps at LT for what freaking reason? he was the 3rd best left tackle on the roster in preseason. Stupidity.

“I think what everybody has seen is that the guys that go out and practice the best and the guys we believe give us the best chance, we are going to play those guys,” he said. “We have been through a lot of them this year. You have seen just about everyone in our room has played. That is the way we believe in. You have to go out and you have to practice.

“If a guy is practicing the best and he shows it, you have to go with that guy. There is no magic to this game. It is not a fairy tale where you have a bad week of practice and then you play a guy and he goes in and plays great. It doesn’t happen. We have to keep working to get him better. I know that. We have and we will continue to.”]

Hey coach, there are guys that are legendary practice players because they dont hit and dont tackle. There is no pressure to perform in a freaking practice. Playing Gaines and Bad over Gilbert is stupid. Desir will never be the corner that Gilbert is. None of those guys have his physical skills. Let the kid play. Its not like he is gonna hurt a defense that doesnt force a single punt last week and has 200 yards in penalties along with giving up 400 yards in the air.

I have just seen way to many stupid decisions by this staff. Its like they outsmarted themselves over and over and over and over again this year.

I actually put more credence into what Montgomery has to say than anyone else on this coaching staff. He came here for a reason and I agree with everything he said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

When Montgomery was let go after a six-year stint with the Baltimore Ravens last January, he jumped at the opportunity to work with Kyle Shanahan. Montgomery was blown away at Shanahan’s vision for the Cleveland offense and the tremendous expectations the coordinator puts on his stable of running backs.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-1/Wilbert-Montgomery-brings-strong-credentials-to-Cleveland-Browns%E2%80%99-coaching-staff/955dc7f4-e831-4b34-8db1-dc8d35656de1

My only comment. The oline is OK. I've been reassured by the posters here we can't blame the oline.