DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Manziel (Continued)

Vers, not pushing buttons, but I leave it to others sticking their neck out. We both know Coaches will do anything to save a player who wins games. It is all I'm saying.

I always listen.

I think you made good points. I don't really agree w/the first one, because I know for a FACT that a huge percentage of NFL players party. And they party hard. I love Joe T, but he parties, too. That is not to knock Joe. My point is ............so what?

I have already admitted that there could be a lot more to the story. If that is the case, then I will take back my negative comments. I am not one to be afraid to admit I was wrong.

Now, let's see if you wanna listen:

I think a lot of the negative fan reaction towards Manziel is because they don't like the kid personally. I think a good percentage of our posters didn't ever want to give him a chance and have looked for the negatives. I think that those same posters are blowing some of these things out of proportion. I think that many of these same posters cried and whined over and over and over again about Gordon was being mistreated, even though Gordon had actual crimes and JM has has not been busted once. I think that type of "reasoning" is illogical and unfair.

Thanks for showing your true character. You quote arch because I have him on ignore. Why?

I know why.

What was your point about JM and Pet again?

Oh.........you didn't have one. Your sole intent was to criticize me?

Awesome.

I think a lot of the fan reaction to Manziel is he's an idiot who's used to getting his own way to the point where his daddy had to bribe him to act responsibly in freakin high school. Manziel may have some talent to be a good QB but he's a Ken Stabler on steroids when it comes to dumbass decisions. He's not putting his team and teammates first, he's the ultimate user and I for one am glad Pet did what he did. Thumbs up to Pet for being a decent human being and trying to get the kid on the right track. I may question his head coaching talent but as a human being, he's top notch as far as I'm concerned.

So............what are your thoughts on Gordon?

I don't hate anyone bud. Not even you.

Yeah, it's a message board. If you didn't have me on ignore, you'd see that, get this, when I agree with you, I say so. And, when I disagree, I say so.

And you'd also see that, when you do to other posters the exact thing you gripe about, I call you on it.

That, sir, is the problem. You can't handle being called on your 2 facedness. So, you put me on ignore. But, you bring my name up, AND, you reply to me.

That, sir, is odd, at best.

I don't hate you. You know that, from the deleted thread. I do, however, question you. And that's what bugs you.

Agreed.

I'll give my thoughts: He's an idiot that the league suspended for not abiding by the rules. He's serving his "sentence". He may or may not get back in the league. And really, he's almost beyond making the choice for himself.

I have hopes Gordon's head is extracted from his derriere and he will put his team first and realize once his career is over he can do whatever he wants and no one will care. Until then he can make a lot more money acting responsibly.

If Johnny had not turned himself in to Rehab -voluntarily - would this still be the case? He has apparently been on a good path - according to Pet - and maturing. Zero tolerance? Interesting word choices.

As many have mentioned, it would be nice to know just what specifically Johnny did that Pet told him not to do to break said trust.

Again, why demote him to #3 as 'punishment' instead of healthy inactive? With no more 'bye weeks', how long is Johnny grounded for?

How can this do nothing but build animosity between Johnny and the Browns? There are 2 responses to discipline - and they are based off of the relationship between the parties. One response is agreement in the positive direction and the other is a divide. With the clubhouse aligning with Pet, Johnny is basically an outcast now....

Why would Johnny want to stay here and ride this out? Anyone have a reference for this type incident happening in the NFL where it worked - specifically a QB?

I suppose you'll need to wait to hear from Johnny if he's willing to give details. Pet is not, which is appropriate.

Understand one thing: Manziel has no leverage in this situation. His message from the Browns should be clear: You do what we say or there's the door. Its up to him.

And you know what route he'll probably take? Show me the door. I'm Johnny, and I do what I want. I did last year, and the year before, and the year before, and the year before, etc.

As people sticking up for him say "He's an adult, he can drink if he wants to". Yup, he's an adult. He can suffer consequences for doing what he wants.


I was feeling a little sorry for him until Hartline and Thomas said what they said. Plus, the coach, the oc, the gm, and the owner all agreed with benching him.

That tells me something about John.

I see we're back to be ugly toward each other again.

That's Browns, for another fantastic season. Sigh....

For me I care less what a below average WR and a player who has no desire or has shown zero leadership has to say. They shouldn't be saying anything. If theres more to the story then the team needs to say so..right now they look childish and immature all around, johnny included. Though to be honest, I see Zero wrong with what he did. He is an adult, and you talk about consequences, there should def. be consequences, had he broken the law...which he didn't. So if theres more to the story, I think the fans that support this pathetic team should be given more information. Because right now there is a lot more hate towards the team's handling of it than JFF

along the same lines...the conversation between Pet and Johnny before the break should have been private. What I read of Hartline and Joe was that they supported Pet's decision...and that they 'thought' there was more to the story but I didn't see that they knew the details either [and probably they should not]. They are showing their support of the coach making a decision. I would think that only Pet and Johnny should know the details of the conversation and thus the reasons. It would be weird -maybe? - for the exact details to be common locker room knowledge - seems like Pet would just say "I have benched Johnny until further notice" and that would be it.

I get all the distractions and wanting to shut this down...I don't get benching him to #3 based upon him not keeping his word. Ok - I get benching as punishment from Pee Wee through College for external behavior..being in a coaches dog house usually comes from on-field issues..seems like on-field issues should have on-field ramifications and off-field issues should have off field ones (unless violating some league rules of course)...

Maybe I just don't see benching as a punishment in the NFL outside of league violations...am I wrong in thinking that benching is not the appropriate punishment for breaking trust OFF the field?

One more thought - will this be Johnny's and Pet's world for the next 2 years? Johnny is only 1 move [or drink] away every week from being #1 to going to #3?

This is what happens when your franchise team is a train wreck. Loser mentality. If we were 8-2 rather than 2-8 most of this trash wouldn't matter. People are so hung up on having "respectful, high character" players on the team. I'm glad we have the classiest bunch of losers in the NFL. Awesome.

The conversation between Pet and John probably was just between the 2.

But, as Hartline alluded to - things were obvious in the locker room. Hartline has nothing to gain by saying what he said.

Thomas has nothing to gain by what he said.

I think there's more to the story than meets the eye. Perhaps we aren't hearing what actually has happened over the course of the season.

Ya s'pose that could be?

I agree that there has to be more to the story..which again, is fine.

It's the benching 'thing' I am struggling with...maybe not even the benching - it's the demotion to 3rd sting. Why 3rd sting? I guess I have a hangup with it but if you want him punished - Healthy inactive. Put him on the naughty list...

So as of now,he is the same spot that Austin Davis has been..

So my understanding of 3rd string means " a team can insert its third-string quarterback for a short period at any point in the game, then take him out and put the starter back in."...

So his 'punishment' is to just not be a starter and get starter reps?

Probably just my hang up a small point..

Yep.

I've been thinking about thus a lot today as many of my friends side with Pet. IMO, he needs to concentrate on discipline ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD rather than care what a player does in his on down time.

Daddy Pettine exudes discipline on Johnny for having a drink at a bar during his down time, however he holds no players accountable for awful penalties, being out if position, not tackling, false starts, etc.

Hey Mike, maybe you should worry about ON FIELD discipline before off field fir a guy that has never even been in trouble with the league!

Whatever Pet did, the other players supported it. I'm more worried about those guys than a guy that would rather party than be a starting QB.

Johnny knew he did wrong when he hinted that it "may be an old tape" and then had his buddy quickly pull it and delete his account.

Johnny knew he did something he wasn't supposed to this weekend. You can put it on Pet if you want, but Johnny wanted to party more than he wanted to be a starting QB.

I won't put it all on Pet, but I find it hypocritical that he can preach discipline when he coaches what is most likely the most undisciplined team in the league. He is a crappy coach, we have a crappy FO, and likely a crappy owner.

Who gives a damn what Johnny does off the field, so long as it is legal, as long as it doesn't affect what he does on the field?

The 2-8 record and terrible defense is more embarrassing than what Manziel did. I wish we had a coach that cared about winning.

Weren't you the one who lambasted people for calling Banner, Lombardi, and Haslam "Bozos"?

Interesting.

One thing I seem to remember about the Gordon thing is.. when he was busted for drinking alcohol.. He was on a flight to Las Vegas with a group of teammates and 1 coach among those partying on the plane was Manziel.

Doesn't anyone here find it unusual that Manziel is involved in so many parties that make headlines, either for what happens to him or others? There are at least 64 other Quarterbacks on NFL rosters. In the past 2 years since Manziel has been with the Browns, how many other QBs have been in any, much less as many, immature situations involving alcohol as Manziel?

I wanted to see Manziel play these last 6 games. I wanted to see what he could do. Just when it looks as though he has turned the corner and may actually do something good, he does something dumb. His teammates see it, they say there is more behind it all. They understand why he is benched. Johnny just can't seem to get out of his own way.

I wouldn't use the word "interesting"....more like "typical".

Trust Hartline & Thomas, I do. I just can't believe arguing for no consequences for this kid. Pettine should have a presser and say, "We talked it over; no legal charges, no foul, no problem. Suit up, strap it on and play ball!! It's all good."

Refuse to entertain that. JF = Jonny Fail for now.

jc

Man, I'm two days off getting this news and kind of shrugged when I read it 5min ago. That's my level of fandom right now.

All I'll say, many of you wanted Johnny Hollywood, you got it. Hope you enjoyed the ride. Wasted two years and two high picks on this attention clown. You could see the hypocrite in every interview and he didn't fool anyone in the locker room with his two faced ways.

Next up, some reality rehab show with Johnny Manziel. Would love to see him team up with Tim Tebow as commentators.

I've been thinking about thus a lot today as many of my friends side with Pet. IMO, he needs to concentrate on discipline ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD rather than care what a player does in his on down time.

Daddy Pettine exudes discipline on Johnny for having a drink at a bar during his down time, however he holds no players accountable for awful penalties, being out if position, not tackling, false starts, etc.

Hey Mike, maybe you should worry about ON FIELD discipline before off field fir a guy that has never even been in trouble with the league! [/quote]

............................................................

Hear , hear .. Hear , hear ! Well Said ..

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and their families. I too was disappointed with this news. He really didn't do much wrong on the face of it but like others have said there is more to it then we know. He obviously violated someones trust when he gave his word and did this. I really wanted to see JM do well these last 6 games. I was starting to feel maybe we may finally have a decent qb with upside. He needs to grow up some no doubt but he also needs to understand what has been created by himself and the media and he has a target on his back. He will always be watched closely whether it is here or wherever he ends up. He made his bed.

Here are some things I've been thinking about:

--Pettine is an awful head coach who only wants to coach choir boy types. That's why less talented guys see the field over more talented guys. It's because they know if they are teacher's pet in the film room that goes a long way in them playing. He raved about Austin Davis being "relentless" in his film study. LOL. He is not able to distinguish working hard and talent and he is not able to get the most out of guys. Yet those are all part of being a head coach.

--He further compounds the issue of playing less talented guys by refusing to adjust the scheme when they are in there. He's just clueless. Play like a Brown to Pettine is work hard, study hard, and be a teacher's pet.

--However, as much as I wanted to see Manziel play the rest of the season, I think Pettine made the right call on Manziel. It's obvious he violated a trust that goes beyond him having a beer. In essence he lied. That is really the only way to justify Pett's reaction. You cannot lie to someone's face and then make a fool of them.

--I honestly believe this move was made with Manziel's best interest at heart. I honestly feel that the team feels that without benching him, he may not reach his true potential. This move will actually help, not hurt him.

--But there are two rubs here. The first is that neither Pett or Farmer are likely to be here next year. Which means Manziel has likely taken his last snap as a Brown. So all this talk of doing what's best for him and that he can still be the future QB is a bit hollow.

--The second rub, which is related to the first, is while Farmer backed Pett's decision, I suspect in Farmer's mind it was a short term demotion. In Pett's mind it's for the rest of the year. We will go into next year with no clarity at the QB position. Not that the new guys will want Manziel anyway.

--As for Thomas, he is very similar to Pettine. Neither care about winning. They care about working with the type of people that they like being around. Thomas doesn't have any patience for a guy like Manziel. He likes guys straight laced, similar to his coach. This goes back to my inmates running the asylum comment. People don't want to believe it and that's ok. And I love Thomas, I really do. Probably top 3 all time favorite Browns for me. But he's not a leader. He's a hard working guy that earns his paycheck by doing what he's told to the best of his abilities. He would be great on a team that wins consistently. He's not going to help turn something around. That's just not who he is.

I'm late to the debate.

See temperatures sky rocketed and agendas came straight to the fore.

My 2 cents - I support the decision because of the simple fact that JM has shown a pattern of behavior that Football is not that important to him that he is willing to make personal sacrifice in order to prepare and be the best he can be. I don't know how destructive his self destructive tendencies are and whether this behaviour is a reflection of that - I don't know if this is a conscious decision by a young man who has decided living life to the full is more important that football - or anything in between that may have motivated him.... me or anyone else guessing at the reasons is pure speculation.

What I do know is that anyone - even the most gifted and physically prototypical QB to play the game - can't achieve their potential and be the best they can be until they put football first.

For all those arguing that JM doesn't deserve this - I tend to believe that it's any decision by the FO that you will disagree with. Letting a guy with recent history of rehab go scot free for such a cavalier and entitled attitude in the face of overwhelming public scrutiny simple ENABLES him to carry on. ENABLING and sending a message to team and all the players that it's cool to put football second place in your life is wrong on so many levels IMO.

I'd started to have some hope for JM - but after this episode I think the hope tank is empty again. It's not about his ability - it's about attitude and application of his craft ... that is simply not there.

I recently read a long piece on Tom Brady, about his long trip as a young boy through HS, College, and then the Pats. It focuses a lot on the work ethic that drives him. Teammates talk about taking the bus back to the practice facility from the airport after a road game. The teammate says that even though it was late, Brady didn't get in his car and go home. Instead, he went into the facility to watch film. Scott Pioli, former GM, recalls how he would get calls from security at the facility at 1AM, that their rookie QB (Brady) was there and wanted to be let into the film room. His super model wife, talks about recently waking at 3:30 in the morning, and finding him watching game film. It gives you a sense of the level of commitment that's required to excel, and I came away from it with an even higher opinion of Brady than I had before. 6th round pick ... Ai-Yi-Yi!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/re...3d0c_story.html

mac, did you read my post beyond the first bullet?

j/c:

But this is the media's fault!



Stop selling beers at the stadium. Can't you see the hypocrisy!?

/purple

It's been a roller coaster for me. I was, and still am, mad at Pettine for reacting like this to what seems like a relatively minor thing. But then, I know there might be more to it. And quick: Name the last time you saw an Instagram photo of, say Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning or even a whole lot of lesser, younger quarterbacks acting like idiots at a club?
Giving the keys to Johnny didn't do anything to strengthen his dedication. It's not going to work. I guess we know it. A shame, because I think he could be a special type of player.
On to Paxton Lynch, I suppose. Best case scenario, we'll be competitive in 2018.