DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case for Keeping Them

You were not wrong. There is a reason that I have cfrs on ignore.

I clearly stated that I think the key is getting a GM that suits the coach, not the other way around. How does he turn that into one person being the coach and GM?

Look, the coach is the one who is on the front line every day. He is the one who establishes the identity of the team. He needs support from the GM.

I think it is a much better scenario to have a GM who gets players that fit into the coach's system rather than having a coach who is a lackey for the GM. I think a lot of the best teams in the history of the league have that type of situation rather than just having a great GM and having his guy as the coach.

Heck, we hired Shurmur because he could work w/H and H. There is the jerk in Indy who wants to control everything. Those situations are toxic. Great coaches have GMs who support them by getting them the type of players the coach needs.

I am not trying to start WWIII here, but I firmly believe that the GM should support the coach and that having a coach who is at the mercy of the GM is a bad idea.

Then by that logic, I am absolutely shocked you loved LomBanner so much.

One more thing, Farmer went and got someone Pettine WANTED in Gilbert and Shelton. How did that work out?

What's even more obvious is that they both have to be good at their job and they need to have a shared vision for how the team will be built.

I think the Patriots actually do have a GM named Nick Caserio (local guy, John Carroll Univ). He works for BB, who is the de facto Team President, and also Head Coach. Its the model that should have been used here by Lerner with Mike Holmgren ... Holmgren: Team Pres / Head Coach and Tom Heckert as his GM. But Mike apparently didn't like the hours that would have required; not for a measly $5-10M per year.

He's actually just Dir. of Player Personnel. Belichek is the person running the draft/FA show over there. My guess is Caserio essentially does what Mike Lombardi did for Belichek when they both here in Cleveland...Think "Cleveland '95" on the NFL network.

My mistake - but the point remains that Heckert could have filled that function with Holmgren in the HC role here. Anyway, its hindsight, but I remember thinking when Holmgren was hired that we'd see him on the sidelines.

Speaking of Lombardi - isn't he back with the Pats? I wonder what he does there besides undermining Caserio?

He is. I think he is labeled as a consultant of some sort. Maybe if Caserio ever takes a GM position, Lombardi could be thrust back into a defined player personnel role.

"Ignore."

slow



clap

kokinos is another cocaine cowboy....

I agree with this 100%

To this date no one has been able to explain to me why it is so important that the GM has a preference as to whether or not we should run a 3-4 vs. a 4-3? Power run vs. finesse air attack?

Because as you said,
-the GM isn't on the sideline making calls on Game Day.

-The GM doesn't put the playbook together.

-The GM doesn't have to develop the player once they are here.

But in all fairness to the discussion, I think it also becomes a chicken and the egg kind of proposition:

Let's say Baltimore is looking for a new HC. It makes perfectly good sense that an established, successful GM in Ozzie Newsome would have considerable say in who they hire. After all, he knows what is on the roster.

Now let's say Belichik decides he wants to focus on coaching, now the Pats are looking for a GM. In that scenario it makes complete sense that they wouldn't bring in a GM who is going to override an established and successful HC.

Rightly or wrongly, coming in to last season we needed both a GM and a HC. There just wasn't anyone of either position that were successful that wanted to come here so we don't have the advantage of either of the above scenarios.

If Haslam feels like the dynamic between Pet and Farm isn't working and one of them has to go, I think the organization is set back more by firing Pet than by firing Farmer.

If Pet goes, so does everyone and everything else... Flip, OConnell.. yes Oneil, but IMO even if the DEF plays the next 3 games like this past weekend, I still don't think it's enough to keep him as DC. People keep trying to create this myth about Pet being too stubborn and being more loyal to his buddy than the team because Oneil hasn't been fired yet. My only question to them is: and replace him with.... whom?

But even if Pet is given another season or two and doesn't pan out, it's still at least 3 seasons of putting together a roster through 3 years of a system. Now the system make suck, or just isn't coached well, but it gives a potential hire a helluva lot more to work with. In that instance you might see a significant 1 season turn around because the guy you just hired actually runs the system better than his predecessor.

I have been and still am mad about how Pettine has handled Manziel. That aside I liked him until mid season and took up for him against detractors.

Logic dictates that I should want him to stay for the sake of continuity. BUT therein lies the rub, I think his ego gets in the way of his ability to coach and I'm not sure I want that kind of continuity.

Farmer is a bust. He is awful.

I think Flip will be a very good OC and is starting to get it.

O'Neal is in over his head.

Manziel is our best chance at a Franchise QB and we need to stick with him.

So I guess this line of thought would lead to keeping Pettine for a 3rd year on a short leash making JFF the starter for 2016 now. Fire Farmer, O'Neal, and as many of the position coaches deemed necessary.

I think ST had it's ups and downs this year but I attribute that more to Farmer doing a poor job.

I'll bite:



Nothing other than a 2-2 versus 1-8 record. Nothing but the fact that the defense statistically plays better when Johnny Manziel is the starting QB.



By all accounts, it appears that Pettine cannot motivate a 1st round pick to CARE about playing football for the Browns at the level of talent he has? An indictment of the coach if I ever saw one. When Gilbert has been on the field as a DB this year, he has done better than most. It is not like the coaching staff is motivating the secondary to excel this season.



We are a 3rd round pick used to pick him worse. We are the 4th round and 6th round picks we used to move up to get him. We saw some skills from West last season. Could it be that Pettine has no idea how to use the talent we have? I do not see the Browns so full of talent that we can afford to waste any of it.



Harder, schmarder. It is a production game. Do you believe that Bowe is any worse than a former practice squad WR, now released Jennings, a special teams players, and a converted QB? I believe that Pettine has been misusing the receiving corps, as much as it is a receiving corps. Imagine next season if/when Gordon comes back to the team. Will Pettine not play Gordon over Moore, Jennings, or any other WR because he does not practice harder?



Mayle was a 4th round pick. Up and down is exactly what coaching should be able to help. Pryor made the team until he was released to make room for a RB waived by Seattle because we needed a RB because we traded West.




Yes, I do believe he is doing exactly that. His motives may not be to screw the team over, they are probably his inexperience manifesting itself in anxiety. In order to protect his ego, Pettine acts in a self destructive manner in order to "rationalize" the failure of the team. It is not my fault. It is the talent, the players, the front office.



It is more likely that Johnny Manziel has decided to take his career seriously and to prove to everyone that he can be a NFL QB.



I believe that Pettine has buried many players on the team. Manziel not playing because McCown gives the team the best chance to win is evidence. Especially since we can see that Manziel has done better with the opportunity given than any other QB this season. The team has responded to Manziel.

I think "The defense plays better with [Insert QB]" is one of the most ridiculous ideas..

It can definitely be true. One QB controls the clock better. He makes plays that inspire the defense. Some QBs have a tremendous relationship with their defense and others do not.

high class kinda guy i guess...

absolutely!!

this can go here...

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...partner=ya5nbcs

It’s far from a given that the Browns have cast their lot with Johnny Manziel for the long term.

But for what it’s worth, Manziel has cast his with coach Mike Pettine and the current cast of characters there.

Manziel said, in the wake of a loss to the Seahawks that dropped them to 3-11, that he hopes the Browns go for continuity this offseason instead of yet another overhaul, as he works under his second offensive coordinator in as many years.

“The [Seahawks] have been doing this for awhile at a really high level,” Manziel said, via Mary Kay Cabot of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. “I think this is the best that he’s [Russell Wilson’s] played probably throughout his career, so I don’t know if I can really picture that [kind of stability] moving forward. We’ll see what happens. I don’t think anybody really knows. I want these guys to be here next year.

“I want to have these receivers and the people that we have on this roster on the staff so we can go through the spring and not have to learn what this call is and this play and be able to go through a spring and have some of the continuity like. So it definitely would be a luxury for sure.”

While I’m sure that makes Pettine feel much better, no one knows who will survive the offseason in Cleveland. Last week, when Manziel was speculating about a future with suspended wideout Josh Gordon, Pettine replied: “That would turn out to be a positive thing if Josh is with us next year and Johnny’s on the roster, that those two have built a rapport together.”

That was more a hypothetical than an endorsement or an omen, as no one can know what the future holds there other than Jimmy Haslam, assuming he’s met with his homeless oracle and decided himself.

Of course, the differences between the Seahawks and the Browns go beyond time spent punching the clock together. And another year of Pettine and/or Manziel might not necessarily be moving them in the right direction.

But after changing course so often, it would at least be a direction.

For the sake of continuity I have been on the fence all season about keeping Pettine. O'Neil and Farmer, however, have to go. But, I am now leaning towards Pettine being gone too simply for not firing O'Neil weeks ago. But, I also have come to the conclusion that he treats the players as if they were on his high school team. Why so many healthy scratches? What is up with Bowe, Desir etc.? Manziel hasn't helped himself but, he too seems to often be in Pett's doghouse and when he has played he has been the least of our problems. Is he choosing not to play these guys because he stubbornly doesn't like them or is annoyed and wants to discipline like he did back in high school? Gilbert too. No, Gilbert hasn't played to 1st pick expectations, poor attitude etc. but, I remember people wanting Skrine out his first year and with coaching, playing time and practice he has improved so much that we now wish he was still a Brown. Is gilbert just another one who has never improved due to Pettine's stubbornness and high school coach mentality of treating players like they are 16-17?

I also noticed yesterday in contrast to Carroll and his team...Pettine doesn't interact with the players (nor did O'Neil). Tabor, Flip, O'Connell & Joker P. were the only coaches I saw interacting with players. Tabor was the only one showing emotion. Carroll, however, 20yrs older than Pettine was high-fiving, fist bumping, talking, clapping, congratulating, cheering etc. every player as they came off the field.

This is something that can be seen at every home game too. Pettine seems very isolated from everything - DeisleDawg has brought this up on many occasions as well. I know there are coaches that are like this and it doesn't mean they are bad, but it would be nice to see some interaction.

As much as I've bashed Pettine, I am still on the fence. I hate his high school mentality in dealing with players. Hate it, hate it, hate it! I'm really not sure that he and Johnny can co-exist and I would really like to see what JFF can do next year if we can get some weapons around him.

Farmer needs to go, which would almost certainly doom Pettine as I can't imagine a GM coming in and not wanting his own coach at the wheel.

O'Neil should have been gone months ago, another knock on Pettine IMO. Our defense is just plain embarrassing. I think Flip has done a pretty good job with the hand he was dealt - for once QB has not been the problem regardless of who was playing.

Coming from a kid that's been benched and has a full knitted blanket of negativity to cover up with? Yeah, JF should be scared/worried about his own spot before preaching the saving of others IMO.

I've come to the conclusion that if Ray Farmer is retained and heads up another draft (we are sure to have a top three pick), I'll already accept another season of jokes, questions, anger and disappointments is on deck.

Quick question for anyone who goes to games ... is this normal?

Is it normal for a coach to have such little interaction with his players or anyone else during games? If you watched the other 31 coaches, would they do the same thing? To me, this behavior seems bizarre, but I don't go to games and have never seen what the "norm" is.

That kind of detached-ness seems counterproductive to having a successful team that rallies around each other.

I think it is even more concerning at the DC level.

This just doesn't seem normal.

I'm more patient than most, so I want them to stay except for O'Neil. You simply cannot have the season go the way it has without some sort of whip-cracking, and the defense is an abomination. Send the guy packing, and get someone good in here to get those guys tackling again. I won't shed a tear for Flip sent packing, but I'd prefer him to take his lumps and try again next year. Get a real Oline coach, though.

I'd really like Farmer to go, but that would likely precipitate a complete overhaul, and I don't want that yet. These guys are all rookie coaches, GMs, coordinators, etc. This is what we signed up for.

Manziel is one of the only guys that shows any leadership on the team. Or any competitive fire for that matter.

Pettine gets asked about Manziel and says "if" he's on the team next year.

Manziel gets his turn and says he hopes everyone will be back.

Now who's the leader and who's acting like a child?

Lying to your coach and letting your team down, yet once again, is a funny way to indicate or claim someone has leadership.

I'll admit JF is playing better football, no denying it - but it's just a matter of time before the kid's immature stupidity prevails again. I think Pettine's comments were fair. From now until the end of the week, who knows what could surface about JF.

Pettine handled the situation poorly though, I'll agree with that 100%. He handled that as poorly as clock management.

I was at the San Diego game and didn't notice it as much as yesterday. In Seattle Pettine was pacing up and down the sideline away from players coming in and out of the game. O'Neil was, at one point, while the team were backed up inside the 20, he (O'Neil) was nearer the 50 calling plays completely alone and 30+ yards away from his team on the field and several feet from the nearest coach/player on the sideline.

Bizarre.

I looked across the field several times and saw the spritely silver haired Carroll smiling and enthusiastically jumping around like he was a 35 year old. His team clearly love playing for him and it shows in their production.

Rishuz, I thought the same thing. Pet was just making his point with a backhanded slap that he doesnt want Johnny on the team.

I believe there is about an 85% chance Johnny is starting for us opening day next year.

There is no chance in hell Pet is retained.. He will be gone as soon as the season ends. Farmer likely will be gone with him.

I think being badass and winning games with a QB who throws 19 TDs and 0 INTs over 5 games will do that for you.

Carroll has always been like this. Dude has boundless energy. I think he might do cocaine.

cut with speed

Rishuz & PDX..My biggest concern is Pets dissing of the players and coaches during the game..I will repeat myself, But I have seen coaches go up to him and he turns his back on them..

To me that's just being a prick,If you show you don't care about what someone has to say then why would anyone listen to what you have to say...

This is a team effort and he shows no signs of being apart of the team when he stands as far away as possible from anyone..

His demeanor during the game just...can't say, I would get banned..I understand there are different ways people communicate... But I see none with him.

When players come off the field they walk right past him as if he isn't visible... When you have a record of 3-11 there's some kind of lack in leadership.

It maybe a personality clash, because I would be more involved with the players and coaches, which his personality or lack of feels different.

One thing he said that burns me under the skin to this day... " we are going to come out on Sundays and have fun playing and bloody some noses "...

Well Pet, just how much fun are you having ? Because keeping your hands in your pockets and arms wrapped around yourself sure doesn't show me your having much fun... Oh yeah, maybe because sucking this bad isn't fun.

I will say, I'm glad others are starting to notice, because up at the games I point it out to everyone.

Agreed. I have noticed during pressers he will throw players under the bus yet, rarely owns up to their own coaching mistakes (other than the occasional "we also need to coach better"). In fact, he will publicly defend the defensive scheme. He even said yesterday that he felt they "did well on 3rd down to create a 3rd and long". Umm....didn't they convert all 3rd downs bar 1, maybe 2? From the moment Seattle got the ball the defense were on their heels.

I also have no idea what the deal is with Bowe but 7 (?) healthy scratches for a 12mil player who has proven he CAN be successful in the league? Something is up with this and maybe it isn't just Bowe who is at fault. I also think Tramon Williams has totally given up. He has never played on a losing team and he has been noticeably bad the last few weeks but yesterday he looked awful.

Could Gilbert be a better player today if he wasn't constantly in the doghouse and benched? Probably. Not taking any blame away from him as he deserves his fair share but, for coaches to hold grudges for the sake of player development just seems odd. A celebrated high school coach is one thing...those are young, impressionable teens who are bound to disappoint or not live up to expectation at some point. But, a Pro coach deals with men and should treat them as such.

All speculation of course as we are a 3-11 team that seem to have regressed SO much. I know many expected us to struggle with the strength of schedule but, I don't think ANYBODY foresaw the defense playing as poorly as we have and the coaches seemingly not adjusting schemes to suit players skill set. Absolutely bizarre, unfathomable and a case of "only in Cleveland".

No idea what we end up doing on Jan. 4. If Pettine is told he will be given one more year and can retain his Offensive coaching with new O-Line coach but needs to replace Def Coord. it will be interesting to see where next season goes given we play AFC/NFC E + prob Titans and Chargers. Manziel needs to start and we can move on from Paxton Lynch discussions (actually, the more I think about it the more I personally believe Manziel may be the guy if given full support, offensive weaponry, control/keys to run the offense, allowed to play to his full ability and skills and learns to grow up and keep his head out of the papers). The latter is all on him but, Pettine and our GM need to provide the former.

Nevertheless, I think we are all in agreement that whatever the cost...O'Neil has to go.

I should also say....what happened to the "we are looking to cut it loose in Seattle"?

I saw a reverse to Benji and a Wildcat. Wow...those crazy, unconventional play calls! The reverse worked (although if somebody hadn't whiffed on a block near the wing he would have gone even further) but, once Pryor was back for the snap it was a tad obvious what he was going to do.

Browns' Joe Thomas and Gary Barnidge join the 'keep Mike Pettine' chorus

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com on December 21, 2015 at 9:26 PM, updated December 21, 2015 at 9:27 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns' two best offensive players, left tackle Joe Thomas and tight end Gary Barnidge, have joined the "keep Mike Pettine'' carol reverberating through the roster.

Johnny Manziel cast his vote for continuity after Sunday's 30-13 loss to the Seahawks, and Donte Whitner started the drumbeat before the victory over San Francisco.

Thomas and Barnidge, both playing at a Pro Bowl clip this year, both chimed in on conference calls Monday to reflect on Sunday's 30-13 loss to the Seahawks, which dropped the Browns to 3-11. It was their eights loss in nine games, and the 16th for coach Mike Pettine in his last 19 games.

"I guess I don't want to really think about it or talk about it much,'' said Thomas, who's already played for an astonishing five head coaches in his nine seasons. "But I will say that any time you make a change in an organization on the coaching staff or you make a change in the organization, there is a one step back that you have to take and that's just a part of making a change.''

Thomas, who was almost traded to Denver before the deadline in Nov. 3, has been through it so many times, that he knows the drill.

"You're going to get a lot of new players, you're going to get, obviously, new coaches, new people in the building and it does take time to teach people the new philosophy, the new procedures, the new schemes,'' he said. "There's a level of proficiency that you can get in a year to be ok, but it really takes a few years in a scheme before you can get really good at something."

Thomas said he hasn't voiced his feeling to Browns owner Jimmy Haslam.

"I'm happy to give a lot of input -- or to just be the left tackle,'' he said. "Not in my job description to discuss changes or anything like that, but if somebody asked me my opinion on things, I'll be happy to give it to him."

Barnidge, who tied Ozzie Newsome's record with his ninth TD catch for a Browns tight end in a season, echoed Thomas' sentiments that the status quo is the way to go.

"We've shown what we can do on offense,'' said Barnidge, the most pleasant surprise of the 2015 season. "We know what we can do. We've shown we can put up points against people. We can put up numbers and all of that kind of stuff. We just have to get rid of the miscues we have, and everything will be alright."

Thomas pointed to the offensive strides the Browns have begun to make, including 230 yards rushing against the 49er and almost 100 against the Seahawks.

"We're starting to kind of figure out what we do well and how personnel-wise we fit in with Coach (John DeFilippo's) schemes,'' said Thomas. "You're seeing that good, steady progress. We easily could've had over 100 yards rushing yesterday (94), had the game been a little bit closer in the fourth quarter to just get one more carry.''

He said the offense, which lost offensive line coach Andy Moeller early on in the season after his argument with his fiancee, is starting to find its way.

"You're starting to see improvement in protection schematically, where we need to go, how Johnny (Manziel) understands the fits,'' said Thomas. "So, it's a long process, it's something that takes time, but I'm optimistic about the improvement that we've been making and hoping that these last two games here, that we're able to show even more improvement."

Pettine acknowledged that the loss to Seattle was "another feeling of disappointment in a season of too many for our team and for our fans'' and "it was apparent after watching the tape that our level of play just wasn't good enough.''

He added, "the effort, the energy is there, but just the level of consistency that's required to win is not.''

But he's proud of the fact his team hasn't quit on him.

"The positive is I like our team's attitude, I like our fight,'' he said. "The players are still very much focused and intent on finding a way to finish the season the right way. I see that in how they practice. I see that in how they prepare and I see that during games. I see the emotion and the passion that you want to see in your team and we're going to be that way for the next two games.''

He knows that won't get any easier against two 9-5 teams gunning for the playoffs. The Browns head to Kansas City Sunday to play a red-hot Chiefs team that has won eight straight games, and then come home to close out the year against the Steelers, who have won three straight to improve to 9-5.

By the time it's all said and done, they could be 3-13, their worst record since 2000 -- the second season for the expansion Browns.

Gary Barnidge has been doing an excellent job this year, but I don't know how he can really say "we can put up points on people." We have the fourth least "points for" - 253. This, along with the NFL's second most "points against", makes me feel it's time to get rid of everyone again.

I don't trust any draft picks with Farmer and I don't see anything that Pettine does well as a coach.

I need the second coming of Bellichek, Brown, Lombardi, etc to be available and willing to step into this mess before I fire Pettine.

I want Farmer & O'Neil gone yesterday.

I have a good feeling about Flip but I'm guessing he'd be gone if Pettine left and a new GM were in town.