DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Game 2.. Cavs at Tha Palace 8 pm TNT

You know what? Last year at this time everyone was really down on the Cavs. When the Pistons were up 2-0 (and btw those games weren't even close). You know how that turned out? We were a bounce away from beating them. And I don't care what you say, the Cavs are a better team than they were last year and the Pistons are worse than they were last year. This series is far from over just like last year. If you want to count us out right now then just do it. That's fine. But if you won't even admit that the refs have certainly been in the favor of the Pistons so far then you aren't watching the same games that I am. Maybe we didn't play like Russell's Celtics or Majic's Lakers but Detroit played just as as we did.

I don't think mike brown is a good fit for the cavs. yea he has been successful here in his first couple of years, but I don't think his style is getting teh maxiumum out of the talent on the roster. why did we even sign larry hughes, when you have brown as your coach??? Hughes sucks in the half court,and that's what brown wants to do. brown wants to grind it out and play great defense. that's a nice philosophy, but you have to have a GREAT big man to run that offense through. similar to the spurs who have duncan. we have gooden and an aging Z.

I just don't know. I don't think brown is the guy to win us a championship. people might call me crazy since we're in the eastern conference finals, but with the conference we're in and with one of the best all around players in the game, that's not a great accomplishment if you ask me.

and no we're not getting jason kidd or chauncey billiups this off season. I don't know our cap situation, but we can't have a whole to spend. this is going to be the team the next few years with a tweak here or there.

I don't think the pistons are any better than us, like the national media makes it out to be, but they do beat us in experience, and closing games out. Lebron still chokes down the stretch. he had a great shot at the end, contact or not. he has 3 inches and about 80lbs on rip. that's ridiculous. rasheed made a much tougher shot than lebron's. that's the difference between champions and CHUMPS.

I acutally think we're in total agreement. Those here who know me (and judging by my name) will concede that I try to find the best of any Cleveland sports situation but I just can't find it when it comes to Larry Hughes. I just can't stand him. Like Mark Schawb (WTAM reference) said about Bruce Aven 4 years ago, "He may be a hell of a guy but I'll buy his bus ticket back to Buffalo." Larry Hughes does his best to turn the ball over and take the longest 2 point jumpers he can. That has to be the thing that pisses me off the most about him. He goes out of his way to avoid the 3 point shot. He'd rather take half a step inside the line and take the shot (and miss btw) instead of taking the 3. It's a fact that the percentages for a deep jumper and a 3 pointer are about the same, yet the reward for making the 3 is 50% higher than the deep jumper. I get on him EVERY GAME about this. I really am at a breaking point. If he steps inside the arch one more time and bricks a shot again I just might lose it... I could probably bitch about him all night but the facts are that we are just as good of a team as they are. They have caught a few lucky breaks and they are up 2-0. Now we have to go out and win 4 out of the next 6. It's not impossible. It's not unprescedented. It's what we almost did last year minus a bad bounce on a missed free throw. So, in closing, LET'S GO CAVS! Win 4 (or 8 ) for those of us who remember Ricky Davis shooting at the wrong rim or Dajuan Wagner's pretty floater in the lane or the John Lucas show and on and on... Just win some games for us all.. please?

History says you can stick a fork in the Cavs. Fifty-seven times a team has jumped out to a 2-0 lead in a series and only TWO have blown it. I've been hoping, and EXPECTING, Lebron to step up & take over this series. I don't think it's gonna happen...too timid.

The Cavaliers should be proud to have some of you chumps as fans.

j/c

After game 1, I totally blamed the Cavs for not being aggressive, LeBron in particular... A lot of people bashed the refs, I didn't.

Well I'm here to tell you that in game 2, the refs blew great big donkey........ Any high school ref could have made that call on the final drive, he was fouled, not once, but about 4 times. Yea, Larry Hughes should have made the shot, there were other things the Cavs could have done better, but let's not forget, they are playing a pretty good team, on the road, and twice they've taken them to the final seconds... once they gave it away, once they had it taken from them.

Now for my individual rants....

Mike Brown, what exactly does he say to the Cavs at halftime? "Good half, let's take the third quarter off." ???? or perhaps, "A lot of what we did worked pretty well in the first half, let's not do any of it any more." ????? I don't have the gripes some of you have with Mike Brown, I think he's doing a pretty good job overall, but he might be the worst halftime coach I've ever seen. The Cavs have scored 61 second half points in the 4 quarters they've played in the second half in this series... Just 27 third quarter points... Last night they stood around for msot of the 3rd quarter...

LeBron played a pretty good game overall but if I have one rant on the guy, he still needs to be the run stopper. For most of the game he was as assertive as I would have hoped him to be, but in the 3rd quarter, when the Pistons went on a run, he has to step in and get the basket....

That's it for now... Oh, and one message to the refs.. We get it, the Pistons are supposed to win this series, could you please try to make it a little less obvious that you also think the Pistons should win this series....

General reply

I am a Pistons fan but refs arent going to make bail out calls at the end of games. The Cavs coach takes the ball out of Lebrons hands in the 2nd half for whatever reason, it was dumb.

wasting his timeouts knowing he may need one to move the ball to the other end that was really dumb. It makes no sense at all to spend that last time out with 25 seconds left.

Getting the technical to ensure absolutely no chance was even more dumb.

Sideshow bob had flopped a couple of times and got the call Rashed pushed off and sideshow probaly gets the call if he doesnt overact.

All refs suck but man that was just flat out very bad coaching in these 2 games. Noone thinks the Cavs can win a close game but soon as the 4th quarter starts its playing not to lose.

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I am a Pistons fan but refs arent going to make bail out calls at the end of games.

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When LeBron is 4 feet from the basket, under control, and can't get his arms above his head to shoot, that means one of two things... he's either suffering some sort of temporary paralysis... or there is a 200 lb man hanging on his arm... since there are no reports of paralysis, I guess it was the latter. A "bail out" call is when you are out of control and flop or you jump into the defender, not when the defender is draped across your back.

Yea, Mike Brown made some mistakes... that in no way relieves the refs of their responsibility to make the obvious call. For much of what some people are blaming the Cavs, I choose to give credit to the Pistons... they are a great and experienced team that has great players and makes good adjustments..... The Cavs 34 point second quarter is an anomaly which isn't going to happen again in the series... So it gets me when people say, that all we have to do is keep doing what we did in that quarter... it doesn't work that way.

This is our scoring by quarter for every game of this playoff.

Wizards
27..21..26..23
23..28..24..34
26..35..16..21
22..22..22..31

Nets
23..20..16..22
24..24..26..28
15..28..21..21
19..23..29..16
18..21..20..13
32..21....8..27

Pistons
24..17..14..21
16..34..13..13

Average
22.4...24.5...19.5...22.5

We struggle in the 3rd quarter... and Mike Brown and staff need to figure out why, and fix it.

Just my 2 cents here...

Now, can everybody in the media shut up for ONCE! The loss last night was not on LeBron! It was the whole TEAM! Yes, some was his fault. But I have never heard anybody say being selfish was great..Yea, I understand when he has the ball he can turn the game around singlehandly, but still if it was just about LeBron, we would be called the Lebrons not the Cavaliers.. Don't get me wrong, I love LeBron, he is a great player and very mature for his age, and all the money he has..

Now to the Refs. Why does every FRIGGIN game have to be decided by ther referees?! With under a minute thirty left in the game, in the Eastern Conference Finals is not the time to swallow up the whistle! LeBron was CLEARLY fouled, Rahseed Wallace CLEARLY made a offensive foul, did we get the call, HEAVEN'S NO! It's the playoffs! You don't swallow up the whistle afraid to blow a call and screw somebody out of a game/championship! But you know what? The Cavs eventually got screwed.

I don't buy the arguement "It's the playoffs.. (or it's the final 2 minutes) you can't expect to get that call."

A foul is a foul is a foul, whether it's in the second quarter of a game in January or in the final minutes of a conference finals game. The ref the whole season giving the offense every conceivable advantage.. they let you take steps, they let you push off on offense, they allow illegal screen after illegal screen, they call touch fouls when the offensive guy clearly initiated the contact.. then in the playoffs they allow the defense to play like it's Australian rules basketball... I don't get it. I know the saying is "Defense wins championships" but it's not supposed to be because they change the way they call the game.. and it's not just basketball, this is what did the Colts in a number of times... the rules are what the rules are and they shouldn't change because it's the playoffs or because it's the final couple minutes. If you want a more physical defensive game, FINE, call it that way from the beginning of the season.

Just saw the last second Lebron play from an angle over the backboard where it was coming at you. Sorry kids, Lebron wasn't fouled. That's called defense, and it was great D. (I listened to the game last night, just saw the play on a good TV for the first time).

I've had to work for both games, so I can't really speak for myself and say the officiating was bad. But I've had people tell me that not just that last play, but in general, the Cavs weren't getting any calls at all.

No matter the feeling on the calls or lack of, bottom line is we got a rebound and bricked a 12 foot jumper with about a second to go.

The refs didn't cost us the game. Our inability to hold a nice halftime lead and not being able to drain a simple shot at the end of the game is what cost us the game.

And that is the bottom line.

Peen, I fully understand what you're talking about, I just disagree. Whether you are up by 12 or down by 12 at the half, whether you get the rebound for a second look or not, none of it is really relevant to whether a foul is called appropriately or not. You can make the argument that if the Cavs had made 3 or 4 other open looks throughout the game, they wouldn't have been in that situation... none of it matters. Each play is independent of the others.. it's quite possible that if they had called the foul, LeBron makes 1 of 2, then the Pistons win because there would have been about 6 seconds on the clock and they make a shot or it goes to OT and the Cavs lose... Lots of "ifs" could have happened, none of which affect the fact that a foul occurred and was not called.

I agree with DC. A foul is a foul period. To change the way the game is played in the playoffs, basketball, football, fooseball who cares, is just wrong. And it wasn't just that last drive. LeBron was getting fouled EVERY drive to the basket. I was getting mad he wasn't taking it to the hole hard till I started watching how he would be bashed from ten feet in.

If you took that exact same game and played it in February, 4 people would have fouled out for both teams and LeBron would have shot 25 free throws...

What's the point of playing all those games to see who the better teams are under one set of rules, then changing the rules for the playoffs?

From ESPN.com

Fine-worthy rebuke in order
Sheridan
By Chris Sheridan
ESPN Insider

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- I'm not going to kill Cleveland Cavaliers coach Mike Brown harder than anybody else in this column -- I'll save that honor for the referees -- for biting his tongue after the Eastern Conference finals Game 2 loss, 79-76, to the Detroit Pistons on Thursday, although I think he did his team a disservice in trying to take the high road by refraining from criticizing the officials in the interview room afterward.

"We're a no-excuse team," Brown said, a line that was echoed minutes later by LeBron James.

But make no mistake, the Cavs were absolutely livid at the lack of a call when James drove to the basket with eight seconds left and was hacked numerous times by Richard Hamilton, including a rake across his arm as he went for the shot everyone had been waiting three days to see if he would take.

I asked Hamilton in the locker room afterward if he had fouled James on the play, and Hamilton couldn't stifle a cackle before he gave his answer: "Nah, you know. I just put my hands up."

And let the record show that he cackled at the end of that answer, too.

The non-call was so egregious, I'd expect Jimmy Clark, Bernie Fryer and Mark Wunderlich to be told by the league office that they can watch the rest of the playoffs from Joey Crawford's man cave, since they don't deserve to be working at this stage of the postseason if they're too scared to call a foul on the biggest play of the game. But I'm not sure whether those three referees will be taking calls from the league office on Friday, since all three must be scheduled for surgery to have the whistles they swallowed removed from their stomachs.

You know, Brown could have come up with a line or two like that. Sure, a few angry remarks would have cost him a fine, but at least would have earned him the gratitude of the Cavs' fans, who will wake Friday morning feeling -- and feeling it rightfully, I might add -- that they were screwed.

If that had happened to someone on the Lakers, you can bet your bottom dollar Phil Jackson would have spoken frankly about it, then taken his $50,000 fine like a man.

Same would have happened with Pat Riley if that had happened to the Heat, and don't even get me started on what Mark Cuban would have done if the Dallas Mavericks had been on the receiving end of that non-call. His fine might have made it into seven figures.

But this is all Brown had to say:

"The officials get paid a lot of money, and that's their job. If they don't see anything, they don't see anything. We're a no-excuse team. We've got to get ready for Game 3."

I pressed Brown on the matter by telling him I wasn't looking for an excuse, just a description of how that final James possession looked from where he was standing.

"LeBron drove the ball. He shot it, he missed it. Larry [Hughes] got the rebound, he shot it, he missed it. Andy [Anderson Varejao] tipped it, they came up with the rebound and we fouled them," Brown said.

So why did you get so upset?

"Just emotions," he said. "Tough game."

Maybe Brown expressed everything he wanted when he drew a technical foul with one second left, walking on the court to complain. That move is going to merit an explanation Friday. Think about it, when's the last time you saw a coach take a tech in a one-point conference finals game with one second left?

I also asked James about the play in question and what he was shouting at the referees when play stopped.

"That's over and done with," he said. "Me and the ref had a good conversation, and I've moved on as a player."

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but where the heck is the indignation? By my count Hamilton slapped James on the arms three or four times when he was driving to the hoop, and that's not even counting the contact he took on the shot. If you wanted to be totally technical, there were probably five different instances of contact on which fouls could have been called.

Compared to Dirk Nowitzki's touch foul against Dwyane Wade in Game 5 of the NBA Finals last year, this was an absolute mugging.

I can understand the Cavs not wanting to be seen as a team that complains about the referees publicly, but there's a way to make your point without crossing the line.

What if Brown had said this: "I thought Hamilton fouled him three or four times, and I can't understand why the referees didn't call it, because I could see it plain as day from 50 feet away, and I only have two eyes. They have six. But what's done is done, and we're not going to blame the referees for this loss. We blame ourselves."

At least he would have been stating the obvious instead of acting like someone who feared the wrath of David Stern so much he was afraid to speak out.

And besides, complaining about a bad call or a non-call is not tantamount to making an excuse. They're two totally different things.

The Cavs had a right to be angry, and I felt Brown had an obligation to at least show a little emotion. If he wanted to go ballistic and spend $50,000 getting it off his chest, that would have been acceptable, too.

I just didn't like the whole specter of the Cavs slinking off into the night looking like they were almost afraid to stand up for themselves.

They got robbed, and either their coach or their superstar should have found a way to say so. Instead, the Cavs came off as being meek. And at this stage of the season, it is not time to be a pushover. It's time to stand up for yourself and state the truth, and if it costs you $50,000, so be it. At least the refs will hear your message, and the next time it happens you'll probably get the call.

It's called working the refs, and the best coaches do it when circumstances call for it. And on this night, Brown should have piped up more than he did.

Chris Sheridan covers the NBA for ESPN Insider.

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Compared to Dirk Nowitzki's touch foul against Dwyane Wade in Game 5 of the NBA Finals last year, this was an absolute mugging.

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thank you.

I understand all of that.....but I didn't really see a 1 sided game...especially at the end...if you look back...we got the ball a few times with a bunch of banging going on.

Again....Had Hughes made a simple shot of 10-12 feet, we wouldn't even be discussing the refs.

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Third-quarter blues have been Cavaliers' downfall
Saturday, May 26, 2007 3:29 AM
By James Walker

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Read what's on the minds of Dispatch sports reporters at dispatch.com/sportsblogs
DETROIT -- Largely unnoticed because of issues such as whether LeBron James should shoot or pass or whether he was fouled at the end of Game 2 has been the Cleveland Cavaliers' momentum-killing play in the third quarter of the Eastern Conference finals.

It's the reason both games have come down to the final possession even though the Cavaliers have outscored the Detroit Pistons by a combined 18 points in the first halves of games 1 and 2. Game 3 is Sunday in Cleveland, with Detroit leading two games to none.

So far, the Pistons have made all the proper adjustments at halftime and the Cavaliers have not. In Game 2 on Thursday night, the Cavs led by 12 at halftime and were outscored 22-13 in the third quarter, quickly cutting their lead to three points in an eventual 79-76 loss.

"That's something as a team we've got to figure out, but (the Pistons) do a great job in the third quarter of coming out and putting the pressure on you," James said. "We haven't been a good third-quarter team all year. I don't know why."

The problem dates at least to Cleveland's second-round series against New Jersey. In Game 5, the Cavs were trailing 47-39 at halftime, then were outscored 30-20 in the third quarter. The Nets coasted from there despite scoring just six points in the fourth quarter for an 83-72 win.

In Game 6, the Cavs scored just eight third-quarter points, but they finished strong for a series-clinching 88-72 victory.

Similar problems against Detroit could cost Cleveland in the conference finals. The Cavaliers are averaging just 13.5 points in the third quarter of the series. In Game 2, they scored just 26 points in the second half.

Teams trailing at halftime, such as Detroit has been in Games 1 and 2, know they have to make adjustments, but Cleveland's coaching staff has been slow to react.

"At halftime, we come in down 12, mad, angry but knowing what the problem is," Pistons point guard Chauncey Billups said. "We made a couple adjustments and stepped it up and were a little more aggressive."

Cavs coach Mike Brown said, "It's a good team. They come out of the locker room and they're ready to rock and roll."

With the Pistons defense focusing on James, another player will need to have a big offensive game to help the Cavs get back in the series. The pressure will be on players such as Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden and Donyell Marshall. The three have played important roles throughout the postseason but have disappeared against the Pistons, combining for just 14 points in Game 2.

Consistency also has been an issue for starters Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Sasha Pavlovic. Ilgauskas scored 23 points in Game 1 and three in Game 2. Pavlovic had nine points in Game 1 and 14 in Game 2, shooting 7 of 10 from the field.

jwalker@dispatch.com

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May 25, 2007
Refs to LeBron: Maybe later, kid
A couple years from now, LeBron James will get the same call he didn’t receive in the waning seconds of the Cavaliers’ 79-76 Game 2 loss to the Detroit Pistons.

But there was no chance of James getting that whistle last night. Zero. Zip. Nil.

Not as a 22-year old.

Not while making his first conference finals appearance.

And not against a veteran, championship-caliber team on the road.

Simply put, the time for “King James’’ has not arrived before he’s truly regal in the eyes of officials.

There is no doubt there was contact made by Detroit’s Richard Hamilton during James’ final shot attempt. Both teams admitted as much.

The only question is should James, one of the NBA’s top players in just his fourth season, receive the benefit of a possible foul call late in a playoff game?

After last night the answer is clearly no. James still has to earn the referees’ respect by continuing to play well in meaningful postseason games.

His only option yesterday was to make the tough shot, hack-be-damned.

James took the loss hard. After the game he looked disappointed, angry and a little confused of what just happened to him.

But if James calls his mentor, Michael Jordan, he’d certainly explain to James that he went through the same right of passage, against the same opponent, before the whistles blew to his advantage.

jwalker@dispatch.com

Posted by James Walker on May 25, 2007 2:56 AM

My prediction may come true were done...

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There is no doubt there was contact made by Detroit’s Richard Hamilton during James’ final shot attempt. Both teams admitted as much.

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Rip couldn't keep a straight face when asked if he fouled LeBron.

it's eerily similiar that lebron is going through these same problems that michael jordan went through...

i don't remember those games too well, but i do remember everyone here in chicago saying that for those 4 years (yeah, it took mj 4 tries to beat the bad boys) jordan was not getting the respect he deserved...

jordan was taking things on his shoulders with the scoring though... lebron is doing the same, but he's doing it by passing off to the open man, which is something jordan took years to learn (there was even a great article by rick telander of the chicago sun times last year, about how lebron is way ahead of schedule on becoming jordan-esque)

right now they aren't the same player, until lebron can develop a mid range game, he won't be mj...

when he does, there will be no stopping him, because he knows that mid ranger is going to be there if he wants it late in ballgames, probably a shot on thursday that he could have used...

the cavs can look at this like it's just not their time, like this article says, but that's not how it has to be... the cavs can overcome the pistons, no doubt...

it will be very difficult, but i think they can do it... now that i've cooled off and thought about it, i still feel ok... we've gotta get tomorrow, and we've gotta get tuesday... and if we can, i think detroit becomes scared, because they know the cavs are going to bring it at the palace, because they sure did in those first two games...

there will be no blowouts in this series...

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The Indians dumped their pitching after winning 90+ games

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Pardon my French, but what the hell are you talking about? I'm guessing you're talking about the thing that you've tried to argue for the past 2 years unsucessfully. I've already laid out the facts of this matter and the only pitcher that we lost after 2005 that has done anything worthwhile was Bob Howry and he got closer type money to be a set up guy. I know the economics of baseball mean nothing to a person as clueless as you but it was the right move. More often than not it's going to pay off if you make the right move based on the facts at hand.. It's kind of like going all in with pocket aces. There's a chance that they might get busted but more often than not you're going to win. Like I already said, why don't you find something else to do because I have never seen one positive post from you when it comes to Cleveland sports.

Oh.. and saying that "The heads of Cleveland teams are clueless and always have been" is just plain stupid and I'll prove it. You yourself say that the indians let all their pitching go the last time they won 90 games (which was 2005). This basically admits that the Indians had accumulated some good pitching prior to and during the 2005 season. The man who acquired all of that pitching was Mark Shapiro... the current GM of the Indians. You're admitting that he did a good job of acquring pitching based on your assesment that we lost all of our pitching the following season (which is just plain idiotic but nonetheless). He is one of the "heads of Cleveland teams" that is supposedly clueless.. but if he accumulated a talented team (the team that is currently in first place and has the 3rd best record in Major League Baseball btw) then he must not be clueless right? Because if he was clueless then he certainly wouldn't be able to build a team that is among the premier teams in all of baseball.. right? Or am I dreaming.. Are the Indians not in first place. Are they not better off, as a whole, without the pitchers that they lost after the 2005 season.

Oh, and while you're trying to man up and admit that you're wrong (which will never happen because you're such a stand up guy ) explain to me how Danny Ferry messed up so bad in building a team that has reached the NBA's final 4 and has outplayed the beloved Detroit Pistons each and every one of the first 3 games of this series.

I really look forward to your post filled with complete bull[censored] and avoidance of facts.

*edit*

I just realized 2 interesting things:

1. You predicted that the Cavs would lose by 10 in game 6 of last series when we were up by a point during the third quarter. We obviously went on to win that game and you were no where to be seen in that thread afterward... I guess you really do "Man up" when you're wrong..

2. I just checked the thread for tonights Cavs game and you haven't made a single post. The game where we came out from the beginning and played very well against Detroit... You were no where to be seen in that thread.. a thread filled with positive comments. Basically it just proves that if you can't bitch about something you won't post.