DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Lets have a dialogue....

Just a general reply... Sorry to the delays to some of the posts. I will try getting back on each one as soon as I can. I've been traveling a little bit on work and some questions require me do some research to give an informed response.

Erik, it is so common that such verses are taken out of context, and in so many instances only a part of a sentence is highlighted which if read as such would seem to allude to violence.

The following is from a website I just came across where a similar question was asked:

http://www.islamicwritings.org/quran/peace/does-the-quran-teach-violence/

Q: Does Islam really teach peace? I am a Christian and I do not hate Muslims, but I read in the Qur’an verses like, “And slay them wherever ye catch them..” (2:191) and “..But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” (4:89). How can a peaceful religion teach these things? How do you explain these verses. These quotations from your Holy Book do really make us very uneasy with your faith. I would appreciate your reply.



A: Thank you very much for your kind words that you do not hate Muslims. Hate is not good for any person. I want to assure you that we Muslims also do not hate non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religions does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad -peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.

The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder:

“..Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (al-An’am 6:151)

and Allah says in the Qur’an:

“Nor take life – which Allah has made sacred – except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (al-Isra’ 17:33)

According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See al-Ma’idah 5:32)

However, your question is valid then how come the Qur’an says:

“kill them wherever you find them…”as it is mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah 2:191 and Surah al-Nisa’ 4:89. The answer is simple and that is you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said:

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.” (al-Baqarah 2:190-194)

For your second quotation also read the full text:

“They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (Al-Nisa’ 4:89-91)

Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one any where? These verses were revealed by Allah to Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allah Ta’ala Alaihi Wa Salam) at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.

It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals.

Texas, there is no compulsion on conversion to Islam. Please see below. The Prophet's message never contradicted those in the Quran. His teachings only complemented the Quran.

I got the following from: http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/661/let-there-be-no-compulsion-in-religion/

One of the fundamental truths established by the sacred texts is that no one can be compelled to accept Islam. It is the duty of Muslims to establish the proof of Islam to the people so that truth can be made clear from falsehood. After that, whoever wishes to accept Islam may do so and whoever wishes to continue upon unbelief may do so. No one should be threatened or harmed in any way if he does not wish to accept Islam.

Among the many decisive pieces of evidence in this regard are the following. God says:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” (Quran 2:256)

God says:

“If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” (Quran 10:99)

God says:

“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.” (Quran 3:20)

God says:

“The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” (Quran 5:99)

It is important to note that these last two verses were revealed in Medina. This is significant, since it shows that the ruling they gave was not just contingent on the Muslims being in Mecca in a state of weakness.

Some people might be wondering that if Islam indeed advocates such an approach, then what is all this we hear about jihad? How can we explain the warfare that the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, and his Companions waged against the pagans? The answer to this is that jihad in Islamic Law can be waged for a number of reasons, but compelling people to accept Islam is simply not one of them. As for conversion, this is to be done peacefully by disseminating the Message with the written and spoken word. There is no place for the use of weapons to compel people to accept Islam.

The Prophet, said in his letter to the Roman governor Heraclius:

“I invite you to accept Islam. If you accept Islam, you will find safety. If you accept Islam, God will give you a double reward. However, if you turn away, upon you will be the sin of your subjects.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

Once people have heard the Message without obstruction or hindrance and the proof has been established upon them, then the duty of the Muslims is done. Those who wish to believe are free to do so and those who prefer to disbelieve are likewise free to do so.

Even when the Muslims are compelled to fight and then, as a consequence, subdue the land, their duty thereafter is to establish God’s law in the land and uphold justice for all people, Muslim and non-Muslim. It is not their right to coerce their subjects to accept Islam against their will. Non-Muslims under Muslim rule must be allowed to remain on their own faith and must be allowed to practice the rights of their faith, though they will be expected to respect the laws of the land.

Had the purpose of jihad been to force the unbelievers to accept Islam, the Prophet would never have commanded the Muslims to refrain from hostilities if the enemy relented. He would not have prohibited the killing of women and children. However, this is exactly what he did.

During a battle, the Prophet saw people gathered together. He dispatched a man to find out why they were gathered. The man returned and said: “They are gathered around a slain woman.” So God’s Messenger said:

“She should not have been attacked!” Khalid b. al-Walid was leading the forces, so he dispatched a man to him saying: “Tell Khalid not to kill women or laborers”. (Sunan Abi Dawud)

Therefore, even in the heat of battle against a hostile enemy, the only people who may be attacked are those who are actually participating in the fighting.

Had the purpose of jihad been to force the unbelievers to accept Islam, the rightly guided Caliphs would not have prohibited the killing of priests and monks who refrained from fighting. However, this is exactly what they did. When the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, sent an army to Syria to fight the aggressive Roman legions, he went out to give them words of encouragement. He said: “You are going to find a group of people who have devoted themselves to the worship of God (i.e. monks), so leave them to what they are doing.”

Thanks for answering mine...I didnt twist anything and was honest in my questions..maybe u just didnt get to me..maybe I'm just twisting your own books words:/

Whatever I was actually looking forward to ur response..guess I got it. have a nice dialogue.

I'm out..

IDP , good to see you back... You did the IDP pickem's ... Sorry didn't mean to high jack a thread...

All I will say is that I believe in God.

As for the prophets and religion, and other practices inspired or created by man, well I have questions.

I do not believe that the path to hereafter is a singular one. For all we know the Celts may have been right.

I choose to accept all of them and try to live my life in the best possible manner so if and when judgement occurs, I can say that I tried to leave the world a better place than I found it.

FBHO71 - Not ignoring you at all. I've been trying to respond to questions in chronological order. As for your questions, I just need a little time to do the research to get back to you with an informed answer. I will definitely get back to you.

But just one quick point, I don't recall saying that Islam means "peace". Yes, Islam means Submission to God.

Hey Deisle... thanks Doing those pickem's was a lot of fun.

Yes, I understand the mentality. It appears to parallel that of "gang mentality" that preys upon vulnerable youth. However, where are the peace loving islamists to come forward and try to assist these vulnerable youth before they are gobbled up in the hatred?

If this is indeed a misinterpretation, where are the counters to hatred?

I will use the trust but verify method with any and all of this discussion.

[quote=IDP]FBHO71 - Not ignoring you at all. I've been trying to respond to questions in chronological order. As for your questions, I just need a little time to do the research to get back to you with an informed answer. I will definitely get back to you.

But just one quick point, I don't recall saying that Islam means "peace". Yes, Islam means Submission to God.
[/quot

The word “Islam” is derived from the word meaning “peace” in Arabic.

Those are your words...I'm not going to reply anymore to your thread...I thought you had your own mind and could give answers to simple questions I asked..They was straight from my mind and I'm not even muslim.

So good luck with your dialogue...I was hoping for something 'different' but I can see it is not. .

So just concentrate on your 'dialouge' with the others..I'm going back into lurking mode now.

Just wanted to give the courtesy of letting you know not to waste your time with finding answers to my post.

Thanks for doing this IDP - I'm Jewish and always interested in learning more about other religions. It's interesting to see how similar the dietary laws are between Orthodox Judaism and Muslim.

This seems to lay it out pretty clearly. Just cause is the key here.

If the Jihadist/Terrorists/Etc seem to think that America is "oppressing" them, then the Koran makes it perfectly acceptable as a "just cause" to kill them.

These terrorists do not differentiate between "military" and "innocent civilians" like we do. We American tax payers fund and support our military and therefore are seen as oppressors just like a military occupation. We vote in our leaders who make these decisions. To the terrorists, we are all guilty.

Isn't this how the Jihadist view the west (and places like France)? Isn't this their "just cause" and therefore perfectly acceptable?

I'm just asking if this is what justifies their line of thinking. I could easily see them connecting the dots here and finding support for their cause.

Hi IDP,

I have but one question.

Now I know it goes a lot deeper in Syria and there are a lot of outside influences but......Can you tell my why the vast majority of Muslim's in these troubled regions can't defeat the small minority extremist groups like Isis? Why can't the millions fight off the few thousand and demand their surrender? Why does it seem like the majority of Muslims in torn area's bow down to these groups and their demands? Why do they throw down their arms and run away? Why do they run away from their lands and leave their homes as refugees to other countries. Why won't the vast majority of Muslims join the fight to defeat them?

I guess that was more than one question. Sorry.

Thanks, IDP, I need to digest this and your other response.

TBT I need to read more about Islam in general, obviously the Quran (?) is a place to start but do you have any other thing that gives insight?

Firstly, sorry to you and everyone else for delays in response. Please bear with me and please expect delayed responses mainly because I do intend to provide informed responses (and do research wherever necessary), and also because I travel frequently on my job which makes it difficult to actively participate on the board.

FB - The verses you've stated, are not from the Quran but most likely from Hadiths (i.e.: Prophet's teachings). Firstly, to my knowledge, only a handful of Hadiths sources are authentic, while several sources are considered weak (because they lack adequate proof that links all the way back to the Prophet himself).

Again, from the verses of the Quran, I derive that there is no compulsion in religion. To each his own, and it will God who will decide his fate. In terms of the Hadiths that you've quoted, and especially in terms of Jizya, my personal explanation would be as follows:

During the Prophet's time there were battles that took place against those who had brutally oppressed the people who had embraced Islam. As Muslims they fought against such people, but even during those wars and battles, Muslims were governed by strict rules which included:

- Don't kill a woman, a child, old people, or sick people
- Don't kill monk or a priest
- Don't destroy a temple or a church
- Don't disfigure the dead
- Don't kill those who surrendered or ran away
- Be good to the prisoners and feed them
- Don't enforce Islam

As for Jizya, again to my knowledge that was a tax levied upon non-Muslims for living in Muslim nations. It would be similar to a country that mandates foreigners to pay certain taxes (or some form of payment) for living in their country - I believe some countries do this. Non-Muslims were required to pay such taxes because they were not paying obligatory payments that Muslims paid (such as the Zakat, which is an obligation among all Muslims, even today, to pay 2.5% of their annual savings to the poor & needy; the poor & needy are exempted from paying the Zakat).

Cjrae - The Muslim population is 1.6 Billion. The ones who call themselves Muslims and engage in terrorist activity are far far less than 1%, in fact I believe the number is even less 0.0001% (again, I refer to them as so called Muslims because I'm certain most are not).

The people whom you refer to (i.e.: peace loving, assisting potentially vulnerable youths) are literally everywhere. In fact, just yesterday the grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia (Muslim legal expert who is empowered to give rulings on religious matters) explicitly denounced the ISIS and called them a terrorist organization. The media just chooses not to showcase them because they aren't newsworthy enough.

Hi sk8termom! How are you doing? I remember you participating in the pickems.

Thank you for your post. Knowledge and education is key in breaking misconceptions.

Diehard - It shouldn't justify their line of thinking, because Islam teaches 'killing an innocent person is like killing all of humanity' (as I stated before). Remember, many of the innocents who have died over the years are Muslims too (in the US as well as outside it); in fact, the only victims in the terrorist activities taking place in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, etc. are Muslims.

Of course, it may be easy for me to sit here and say this because by God's mercy I have not suffered what some people are suffering. But I do know that 'patience' is an extremely important virtue in Islam and there are numerous verses in the Quran which express this. Below are some examples:

"Surely, Allaah is with those who are As‑Saabiroon (the patient)” [al-Anfaal 6:46]

“And We made from among them (Children of Israel), leaders, giving guidance under Our Command, when they were patient and used to believe with certainty in Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)” [al-Sajdah 32:34]

“But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for As‑Saabiroon (the patient)” [al-Nahl 16:126]

In fact, it is even mentioned in the Quran to be patient against those who oppress you:

“But if you remain patient and become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious), not the least harm will their cunning do to you. Surely, Allaah surrounds all that they do” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:120]

Perfect - that's a great question, and one which I ask myself all the time. My only explanation would be: (a) fear, (b) lacking the ammunition to counter-attack these terrorists, and (c) the fact that these Millions of people are not killers... just imagine what a mindset or mentality a person must have to actually kill another human being.

What do you make of this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb9F2DT8iEQ

I know there's a lot there. Just curious on your take on those verses. (if the truly ARE taken from the quaran, that is)

I agree with your response. It is no different in our own inner cities, the majority are not gang members, they are not thugs, they are generally law abiding low income people who wish to live a decent life... yet they don't dare take a stand against the gangs and for the same reason, they aren't willing to kill and stoop to the level of the gangs to fight the battle.

Texas - yes, I would definitely encourage this, because as I just stated earlier, knowledge is key to breaking misconceptions.

I've come across some sites which I found interesting:

1) https://ask-a-muslim.quora.com/Debunking-the-Lies-Full - this is a pretty good site that debunks various misconceptions that have questioned

2) These are some sites that people have told me about, but I haven't yet checked myself: http://www.thedeenshow.com/ ; http://www.whyislam.org/

3) Also, I strongly recommend you check out 'Scientific Miracles of Islam' on Facebook. It's a page mainly dedicated to highlighting scientific and astronomy facts mentioned in the Quran, which are only now getting discovered by scientists (1,400 years after the Quran was revealed).

4) Additionally, please check out "Islamic Guidance" on YouTube. It has a series of short 20 - 30 minute videos of various different topics, ranging from the Prophets, Major & Minor Signs of the Day of Judgement, and several more.

5) Lastly, I recommend you follow people like Yasir Qadhi on Facebook; he is American citizen and well spoken Islamic scholar.

Arch - when I clicked on the link I saw a video of a Johnny Cash song called One Piece at a Time.. not sure if this is the link you wanted me to see

Nope. I think my computer is broke. (can I use that excuse?)

Anyway, it referenced what I think are many verses from the quaran.

2:191-193
2:244
w:216
3:56
3:151
4:74
4:76
4:89


And a lot more.

Arc - Sorry for the delay. As a prelude I want to mention that verses are frequently taken out of context. Often times reading the preceding and subsequent verses provide a clearer understanding.

Additionally, I do encourage you (and everyone else) to go through the links I shared previously to get a better understanding.

Lastly, as you can imagine, this will be a long post as I try to respond to the numerous verses you've mentioned.

2:191-193

(2:191) Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing. Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.

Here the word fitnah (in the Arabic text, which means trials and tribulations) is used in the sense of 'persecution'. It refers to a situation whereby either a person or a group is subjected to harassment and intimidation for having accepted, as true, a set of ideas contrary to those currently held, and for striving to effect reforms in the existing order of society by preaching what is good and condemning what is wrong. Such a situation must be changed, if need be, by the force of arms.

Bloodshed is bad, but when one group of people imposes its ideology and forcibly prevents others from accepting the truth, then it becomes guilty of an even more serious crime. In such circumstances, it is perfectly legitimate to remove that oppressive group by the force of arms.

(2:192) Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

God, in whom the believers have faith, is forgiving and ready to pardon even the worst criminals and sinners after they have renounced their arrogant defiance towards Him. It is suggested that this attribute of God should be reflected in the behavior of the believers as well. As the saying goes: 'Mold your morals according to the attributes of God.' Hence, whenever the believers have to resort to armed conflict, they should do so not for the sake of quenching their thirst for vengeance but in the cause of God's religion. Their conflict with any group should last only as long as that group resists the cause of God. As soon as it gives up this resistance hostility should cease.

(2:193) Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is directed only against the wrong-doers.

Here the term fitnah is used in a different sense from the one used in verse 191. It is evident from the context that fitnah refers here to the state of affairs wherein the object of obedience is someone other than God. Hence the purpose of a believer's fighting is that this fitnah should cease and obedience should be consecrated to God alone.

An investigation of the usages of the word 'din' (which occurs in this verse) reveals that the core of its meaning is obedience. In its technical usage, the word refers to that system of life which arises as a result of a person recognizing someone as his Lord and Sovereign and committing himself to following his commands and ordinances. This explanation of the word 'din' makes it quite clear that when some human beings establish their godhead and absolute dominance over others, this state of affairs is one of fitnah. Islam seeks to put an end to this and replace it by a state of affairs in which people live in obedience to the laws of God alone.

What is meant here by 'desisting' is not the abandonment of unbelief and polytheism on the part of the unbelievers but rather their desistance from active hostility to the religion enjoined by God. The unbeliever, the polytheist, the atheist, has each been, empowered to hold on to his beliefs and to worship who and whatever he wishes. In order to deliver the message to these people, Muslims are required to counsel them. But Muslims ought not to try to achieve this purpose by resorting to force. At the same time, these people have no right to either enforce laws of their own contriving instead of the laws of God or to drive the people of God to bondage of others than God. In order to put an end to this fitnah, both persuasion and force be used, whenever and to the extent to which each of the two is needed.

The statement that hostility is meant only against wrong-doers seems to imply that when the true system of life replaces the false one, ordinary people should be granted a general amnesty. At the same time, however, it would be justifiable to punish those who exceeded all limits in their hostility to the Truth, at the time when they held the reins of power. Yet in dealing with such people, after achieving victory, is to adopt a general attitude of forgiveness and tolerance towards the vanquished rather than subject them to revenge. Those criminals whose records were exceptionally bad could, however, be punished.

2:244

(2:244) So fight in the Way of Allah and know well that Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

This verse says to fight for the cause of Allah, but we must take the Quran as a whole, and in verse 2:190 it clearly says not to transgress the limits set by Allah. This verse could also mean an abundance of things, including liberation of the oppressed, fighting injustice, and many other things.

2:216

(2:216) Fighting is ordained upon you and it is disliked by you; it may well be that you dislike a thing even though it is good for you, and it may well be that you like a thing even though it is bad for you. Allah knows and you do not know.

Fighting and combat in war is enjoined on Muslims in order to defend themselves and their rights as well as the rights of others. At this stage, it would also be important to point out verse 4:75 which highlights that 'what is wrong with you that you do not engage in combat for the sake of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help."'

Clearly, it is the duty of every human to fight for others when they are oppressed

3:56

(3:56) As for those who disbelieved, I shall punish them with a terrible chastisement in this world and in the Next; and they shall find none to help them.

This verse is the story of Isa (Arabic name of Jesus [peace be upon him]). Allah is speaking directly to Jesus in this verse, promising to punish the people that were tormenting him on Earth.

3:151

(3:151) We will cast terror into the hearts of those who have denied the Truth since they have associated others with Allah in His divinity - something for which He has sent down no sanction. The Fire is their abode; how bad the resting place of the wrong-doers will be!

This verse is dealing with the Judgement day, not telling Muslims to kill people.[/white]

[color:yellow]4:74

(4:74) Let those who seek the life of the Next World in exchange for the life of this world fight in the way of Allah. We shall grant a mighty reward to whoever fights in the way of Allah, whether he is slain or comes out victorious.

The point stressed here is that fighting in the cause of God cannot be conducted by people engrossed in the pursuit of worldly benefits. This is the task of those who seek to please God, who have complete faith in Him and in the Hereafter, who are prepared to sacrifice all opportunities of worldly success and prosperity, and of all worldly interests, hoping thereby to win God's good pleasure. Irrespective of what happens in the present world such sacrifices will not be wasted in the Hereafter. Jihad (struggle in the cause of God) is not for those who mainly care for worldly benefits.

4:76

(4:76) Those who have faith fight in the way of Allah, while those who disbelieve fight in the way of taghut (Satan). Fight, then, against the fellows of Satan. Surely Satan's strategy is weak.

This lays down a clear verdict of God. To fight in the cause of God in order that His religion be established on earth is the task of men of faith, and whoever truly believes can never shirk this duty. To fight in the cause of taghut (authority in defiance of God) in order that the world may be governed by rebels against God is the task of unbelievers in which no believer can engage himself.

Satan and his comrades-in-arms ostensibly undertake tremendous preparations and contrive all kinds of ingenious machinations. True men of faith, however, should not be intimidated either by such preparations or by machinations. For, no matter what they do, they are doomed to fail.

Also, not sure why the video chose to leave out verse 4:75, which states the following:

(4:75) How is it that you do not fight in the way of Allah and in support of the helpless - men, women and children -who pray: 'Our Lord, bring us out of this land whose people are oppressors and appoint for us from Yourself, a protector, and appoint for us from Yourself a helper'?

This refers to those wronged, persecuted men, women and children of Makka and of the other tribes in Arabia who had embraced Islam, but were able neither to emigrate nor to protect themselves from the wrongs to which they were subjected. These helpless people suffered many forms of persecution, and prayed for deliverance from oppression.

4:89

(4:89) They wish that you should disbelieve just as they disbelieved so that you may all be alike. Do not, therefore, take from them allies until they emigrate in the way of Allah, but if they turn their backs (on emigration), seize them and slay them wherever you come upon them. Take none of them for your ally or helper,

This is the verdict on those hypocritical confessors of faith who belong to a belligerent, non-Muslim nation and actually participate in acts of hostility against Islam.

Lets also have a look at the subsequent verse:

4:90

(4:90) unless it be such of them who seek refuge with a people who are joined with you by a covenant, or those who come to you because their hearts shrink from fighting either against you or against their own people. Had Allah so willed, He would certainly have given them power over you and they would have fought against you. If they leave you alone and do not fight against you and offer you peace, then Allah does not permit you to harm them.

The exception here does not relate to the injunction that they should not be taken as friends and supporters, but to the injunction that the believers should seize and slay them. What is meant is that if a hypocrite takes shelter among an unbelieving people with whom the Muslims have an agreement he should not be pursued into that territory. It is not permissible for Muslims of the Islamic state to kill a hypocrite in some neutral territory even if he merits execution. This is because of the sanctity of the agreement concluded by the Muslims rather than the sanctity of the hypocrite's blood.

Sources:

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php
https://ask-a-muslim.quora.com/Debunking-the-Lies-Full

IDP, proceeding with trust but verify mentality, I have a question: How are people to know that you are not the one taking teachings out of context? In no way do I mean this to be condescending or snarky, just inquiring mind that wants to know.

That is an excellent question...he doesnt want you twisting the verses of the Koran but then he floods you with well more verses that you dont understand in the first place..and of course its his explanation he gets from well an internet site.

I think whoever it was that said he should just make a list of misconceptions was nuts on...and I'm still waiting to see those lists of misconceptions...

But by all means keep flooding people with verses they wont understand and telling them toi keep an open mind.

How about a list of misconceptions IDP? In the most non snarky way I can ask

Kill or be killed.

If a group of thugs like Isis tried this crap in our cities here in the U.S. they'd by wiped out in hours. Not days, months or years. I guess we still have the KKK but I think you get my point.

Why don't local Islamic nations get in the fight? You know nations like Qatar that spend billions of dollars on getting to host a FIFA world cup while doing nothing to fight Isis who are basically on their door step.

Thanks Cjrae, and I appreciate that you are not being condescending.

What I've attempted to do is provide an explanation to the verses which have been questioned, using various sources I found on the internet from people who are much more learned about the religion than I am. The explanations are there which provide the right context, and if you have any specific questions on any of them, I will try to further clarify.

Let me know which explanations you don't understand. I'll elaborate further.



Do clarify. Several verses were raised by people who wanted to get an understanding in order to clear misconceptions, and I've attempted to provide an explanation / understanding on those.

While I agree more should be done, however it is incorrect to say that they are not getting into the fight. Recently numerous Muslim nations formed a coalition to fight terrorism (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/14/middleeast/islamic-coalition-isis-saudi-arabia/). Although CNN reported it, I imagine it may have not been newsworthy enough for it to be splashed all over the news.

Perhaps it's not newsworthy because it's about 20 years too late.

Oh IDP I understand the verses better then most that dont know Islam...hell maybe better then some that say they do follow Islam..

I'm talking about people asking in this thread that have no idea the differences and then you just pile more verses on them and then say well this internet site explains it..understand my point better now??

How much more clarification do you need then YOU started a thread about misconceptions and havent provided a list of misconceptions..

Make a list of your perceived misconceptions instead of a bunch of verses that not many on here will not understand the text of it anyway.

Look I'm not trying to be difficult with you but 1 of my concerns I made to you in the beginning of this thread was it was going to turn into a wall of text/verses and well....

So for CLARIFICATION again...make a list of your misconceptions/problems you perceive that people have against Islam/muslims.

More clear now??

That plus it only amounts to lip service directed to the West.

They formed their own Arab coalition. They haven't joined the battle. They formed an Arab coalition to discuss options. They've still left Syria and Iraq to their own devices.

I'm not piling on more verses, those are explanations & commentary on the verses which people have asked me about. And yes I did use various websites for assistance, because I myself am not as equipped or knowledgeable enough to answer some of the questions raised.



My intention of starting this thread was to have a dialogue on Islam and clear misconceptions that people may have on Islam; hence, several people have asked me about several verses of the Quran which have been misconstrued, and I hope I've responded to all those verses.

My intention was not to list out from my side what I feel are misconceptions that some people have about Islam. But since you've asked this question, unfortunately one of biggest misconceptions that some people have is associating the religion of Islam with the acts of violence that is preached by terrorists.

You may be right. And as I mentioned earlier, more should be done.

IDP, do you know/understand Christianity?

"My intention was not to list out from my side what I feel are misconceptions that some people have about Islam".

Well then this thread probably wont go far good luck.


"unfortunately one of biggest misconceptions that some people have is associating the religion of Islam with the acts of violence that is preached by terrorists".

Well from my experience its no misconception at all..and I'm pretty sure I wasnt leaning Islam from terrorists..

I should have went with my instinct on this thread...good luck hope you achieve whatever it is your looking for..Thanks for the response.

I know I'm not IDP but there is a very popular misconception that seems to be perpetuated during this election cycle which I believe that needs to be cleared up. It's about American Muslims and how they need to get involved in helping to prevent terrorist acts.

In actuality, out of 120 terrorist plots that were thwarted, 48 of them were prevented by tips given to authorities by American Muslims themselves. The biggest single source of tips given to help stop such plots. It seems to me that this is something that really never got much press and, as I said, some politicians seem to make it sound as if this doesn't happen.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7SfSdK...ots&f=false

Pit if thats how this convo wouldve started out I wouldnt have had any disagreement..but I will say this...the only ones who would disagree with what you wrote must live under a rock.

Sorry man I've been shell shocked by muslims who only point out the great things but refuse to acknowledge the fallacies in their own religion or straight up refuse to acknowledge their own responsibility in how Americans view people of their faith.

And I'm not saying thats what IDP did...its just a general comment.

I'll back out of this now and hope he gets whatever it is he is looking for.

My mind is made up about Islam and I shouldve have ignored the impulse to include myself in this "dialogue"

I hope your having a great day my friend.