DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case for Keeping Them

So wait a minute...you're saying that Manziel has a better arm than McCown? I'm shocked by that and would 100% disagree.

As for Pettine, I will simply point out that last year he was in charge of the defense and it improved. This year he said he was going to focus on the offense and it improved (hopefully that was mostly Flip and Pettine can go back to the defensive side of the ball). I think he should get at least one more year and I would argue for two...

I don't think Manziel is more accurate than McCown, but I do think he has a much stronger arm.

As for our offense being so good, it's currently ranked 26th according to DVOA, the best statistical metric. I would not say it's good. In fact, I think it's one of our biggest problems. I don't think Barnidge is that amazing, but his usage rate certainly makes him appear that way. No disrespect to Barnidge, of course. I think he's good at doing what he does. He reminds me a lot of Steve Heiden, and you'd have to be a hateful person to not want another Steve Heiden on this team.

Everyone underestimates Johnny's arm talent.

I thinks so also..

You're allowed to disagree. You are wrong, but you are allowed to disagree.

If they are blowing it up entirely, hire Scott Pioli GM, rehire Mangini HC, Jim Schwartz DC, and keep DeFilippo and offensive staff.

I've said it before, what is the incentive for the Falcons to let Pioli walk?

(I would love to have Schwartz in any capacity.)

We were not ranked that low when McCown was healthy during the first part of the year...

As for the arm strength, I just go by what I see on Sunday's and McCown has a much stronger arm. He doesn't need to put his whole body into throws in order for them to get distance or zip.

(And no, I'm not endorsing McCown, I think he's a career backup for a reason and I question whether our first round pick should be able to at least equal the production of a career backup in the same offense.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "First Part", so I'm using our dvoa after our first 6 weeks. Josh played in 5.5 (I'm not sure when he got injured vs. the Jets. My decimal point may not be accurate.) of those 6 games and our offensive DVOA was ranked 23rd. Better than 26th, for sure, but is it significantly better?

McCown got injured the first drive versus the Jets. Remember he tried to jump into the endzone?

I thought it was the start of the third quarter. My mistake. So our DVOA could be very skewed because of the Jets game and Titans, but again, by how much? If it's 3 spots than we're still around the bottom 3rd of the league. If it's 6 spots, we're still in the bottom half of the league. If it's anything more than 6 spots, I'd like to see some proof before I buy it.

I believe that EVERYONE is expected to improve at their job. Now when it comes to football, that may not wind up being in the W and L column. I believe Farmer certainly plays a huge part in the talent department by not giving Pettine the players he needs to succeed in the W column.

But shouldn't we expect improvement in the "football 101" categories? Penalties, tackling, clock management..... Those are basic football fundamentals. They're not rocket science or things that take years to grasp. Yet we have a HC that after nearly two full seasons at his job, doesn't appear to get any better at implementing even basic football concepts.

So for those that advocate keeping Pettine, can you point out to me anything that he has improved in these past two seasons?

Usually teams don't stand in the way of a promotion. This is assuming Pioli is still the assistant GM.

I tried coming up with an OC tied to Mangini and Pioli. Other than McDaniels and DaBoll, I can't think of any. I like DaBoll, but I think he is a bit old school. Brian can work magic with the run game.

My only dislike about Schwartz more a 4-3 guy. I like hybrid emphasizing the 3-4. With today's offense, it is the scheme that makes most sense.

It's just not a standard 4-3. It's a wide 9. As much as I respect the genius of Schwartz, it's a hard scheme to run. If/when Schwartz leaves us, I doubt we'd find someone with even half his knowledge. Makes me hard to get in bed with the idea.

DVOA takes into account our defense as well which has been horrible all year...

And yes McCown had the concussion in week 1, but week 8 is where he injured his ribs and his productivity really fell off. That's probably the one area I think Pettine messed up and that was running McCown back out there so quickly. At that point even I agreed that we should just move forward with Manziel, no point in breaking McCown further (which we did).

DVOA can be specified for offense, defense and special teams. I'm only using the offensive rank.

the moment where my opinion of Pet really began to turn was when McCown laid on the ground holding his head after a helmet shot to the chin and this right after he missed a game for a concussion and Pet would not take him out.

It had nothing to do with johnny but a coach has got to protect his players when they arent protecting themselves. It wasnt like he was playing with a boo boo. With everything we now know about concussions and head shots, it was just inexcuseable and I also blame our trainers as well as the NFL watchers.

I think that's a very reasonable position to take, I don't understand it either. It does call into question the accusation that he's "soft" on his players though...

In the new CBA, teams were severely limited in the number of full contact practices they could hold. I don't have time to look up all of the particulars right now, but here is one article about it. Blaming Pettine for arbitrarily changing practices in order to just take it easy on the players is ridiculous. However, I do recall that Pettine did go a little easy right after we suffered a rash of hamstrings, and other soft tissue injuries early on. I know that he probably should have forced players to somehow heal "on the fly", even though that goes against medical practices ..... and that he should have pushed players in hard hit units into extra full contact practice time, risking additional injuries. I mean, that is what you are suggesting, right?

Camp cupcake .. right ......

How Teams Practice When They Can’t Practice - WSJ
http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-teams-practice-when-they-cant-practice-1438033795

NFL restrictions on the amount of contact allowed have forced coaches to improvise, which means using everything from drones to remote-control cars

By KEVIN CLARK
Updated July 28, 2015 4:53 p.m. ET
6 COMMENTS
As far as pro football goes, the summer is over. Put down the hot dog and return the kayak to the shed. Training camp is here.

When teams arrive this week to their camps, coaches will be game planning for something tougher than an Aaron Rodgers scramble or a JJ Watt pass rush: They’ll be figuring out how to practice when you aren’t allowed to actually practice all that much.

Four years ago when the players and the league struck a new collective bargaining agreement, one overlooked clause limited the amount of contact and practices. That meant no more two-a-days or countless scrimmages in which players wear pads. The rules are important to players, since they prevent many practice injuries and keep them healthy. Now nearly everyone in the sport acknowledges there’s been a dramatic shift in the way the teams train.

The old way of coaching—lots and lots of hitting—was out. Improvisation was in.

This year, coaches say, the restrictions have forced them to figure out new—and often obscure—ways to get their teams ready for the start of the season in September. The race is on to devise a new way of coaching, and whoever cracks the code will have a huge advantage.

In Oakland, new Raiders coach Jack Del Rio is experiencing his first full off-season as an NFL head coach working under the restrictions. He was particularly mindful of how it would impede his defense’s response time.

Offenses, he said, can “run plays against the air, so that’s not a problem.” But he needed a way to get his defense to react to an imaginary offense.

“We got remote-control cars with little flags,” Del Rio said with a laugh. “We can’t have receivers or running backs running for us, so we just needed something that moved. We needed defenses to react to it.”

So on practice fields in Oakland, a post-route or a down-and-in route that would normally feature a fast, actual-human such as Amari Cooper, the team’s first-round pick, might be run by a toy car. The technique has also been used by Philadelphia Eagles coach Chip Kelly.

Some teams this year—such as the Minnesota Vikings, Dallas Cowboys and Tampa Bay Buccaneers—are investing in virtual-reality equipment to maximize the amount of time players can simulate running plays. Others are flying drones to film plays from new angles so their players have more to work with when they study video (there are no restrictions on this).

Teams are also limited to 14 padded practices during the regular season, where there was no limit before this collective bargaining agreement.

Left to their own devices, players say they are working on different skills. And some say being away from coaches can even help. Philadelphia Eagles defensive lineman Fletcher Cox said he favors limits on contact in the off-season and that young players like him “have learned how to practice without pads.”

That means more finesse and more intricate maneuvering. You can no longer practice “bull rushing,” Cox said, referring to a technique in which you simply run over the player across from you.

“Guys are learning to use their hands more and perfecting that,” Cox said. “Guys are working against dummies, they are boxing more in the off-season, working on tight, short punches. There are a lot of things you can do off the field, and it’s to help your hands.”

Del Rio said his main source of frustration with the practice limits is that the college game—which now focuses more on the “spread” offense, rather than what’s referred to as a “pro-style” offense—has players coming into the league less prepared for complex schemes.

“I see linemen that don’t even know how to get in a stance. You see quarterbacks who don’t know how to take a snap or operate a huddle. That’s where it really stands out,” he said. “You have to grow players and they aren’t spending time with coaches.”

Coaches have long complained about lack of practice time—even before the 2011 CBA—but the new rules have led coaches such as 49ers head coach Jim Tomsula to wonder if it’s time for a developmental league to help younger players who can’t scrimmage with their team as much. Tomsula was a longtime coach in NFL Europe, which shut down in 2007, and would welcome its return.

An NFL spokesman said on Monday that there “is no current plan for a developmental league, but [the NFL] will continue to explore ideas to enhance player development.”

Tomsula added that the lack of practice time has made organization and time management more important than ever in training camp. He said that between June minicamp and July training camp, players were given a rigid checklist of things to work on in their private workouts.

Tomsula joked that without rules on practice time, he would go overboard.

“If you open up the floodgates, I’ll end up having an extra bedroom for [my players]. We need those parameters.” Tomsula said. “The NFL looks a lot different than it did five years ago.”

14 padded practices? That's crazy. I wonder if this season has seen more "football" injuries because guys aren't ready for the contact?

Team's practice all the time without pads and there is a difference between having practice and having a walkthrough while praising the quality of mental reps his players received. Then again maybe you dont know the difference.

That's correct. And I'm not a genius but my math tells me that means coaches have to pick entire WEEKS between games where the team never puts on a single pad.

But no, it's all because Pet likes em "soft" and runs "camp cupcake"

What if he was the head coach?

Did he ever win more than 2 games with the Lions?

I agree.

Pads have nothing to do with camp cupcake.

He was 29-51. Which is awful. But if we fire Pettine these are the type of coaches who we will be in the market for.

Do you have cause for such speculation? Granted if we keep both JFF and Farmer, I can understand the thought process of getting a retread coach. I think that Haslam's pursuit of Chip Kelly indicates that Haslam will try to get a big name.

I think Haslam's pursuit is also an indication that no big name hire would come to Cleveland. What is the appeal over other organizations?

I assume the same thing he did in Detroit. Can he talk Linehan into being his OC and Mangini DC? He can't make both assistant head coaches!

Imagine fans reaction if Mangini named HC! Grossi becomes popular forming a lynch mob having Haslam removed as owner!!!

I would not be happy they blow it up. Hiring people with experience would justify. Having Mangini HC with Schwartz and Linehan as coordinators I can get over it! Add Peyton Manning as President of Football Operations and Pioli as GM...well, I give it hope.

Didn't Schwartz take over a team coming off an 0-16 record. Tall order expecting to have a winning overall record. Detroit was respectable when he left. It was his first head coaching job too. There was a theory a high rate of success is had HC's second attempt.

32 jobs, money and power. I'm pretty hazy on the Chip stuff, but I'm fairly sure we didn't offer him the latter two. And I'm still pretty sure that Banner and Lombardi were being antagonistic towards him. I know they were doing it to Whisenhunt, and I think they did the same to Chip as well. I think our best bet is giving a HC the power over football operations, and letting him hire his own GM.

He had 5 seasons with them. That's more than enough time to get something right. Granted he did go 10-6 with them in his 3rd year. There is more than just a "theory" that 2nd time HC's do better. I once read a report that showed how well 2nd time HC's did after they got fired, but I've failed to find it again. No matter how long I've looked.

I'll probably look into Schwartz's career sometime soon and try to make a better guestimate, but my thoughts now is that he's out of his league.

Do you think no HC fired by Cleveland not getting another HC job would have any weight? I bet that will require a big bag of money and plenty of power. I'm thinking the asking price to lure a high quality coach would be so ridiculously high it'll be laughable.

Perhaps, but I think Haslam is a desperate owner trying to sell the franchise to a fan base that's quickly losing faith. The one thing he currently has is money and power. We don't need all good coaches to say, "Yes.", just one guy.

As far as no Browns HC coaching again... Butch Davis went back to college and coached there. He wasn't an NFL coach in the first place, but he did coach again. RAC became a head coach again and is still a coordinator. Mangini is back to being a coordinator after taking time off and changing sides of the ball. Chud and Pett are both OC's.

Not talking about getting it right but having an overall winning record as HC.

By the way, I think you are over simplifying the time it takes changing culture of a losing team into a winner in just five years. To make that happen, a HC/GM would need near perfect drafts and free-agent signing during that time. Cleveland has proved time after time it is difficult assembling a winning team in two.

I hate to break the news, but you will be disappointed. Gruden or similar is not going to sign. Especially having expectations by owner team will be a winner in two years. Statistically you are asking a HC/GM to do the impossible. As I stated it'll be a laughable contract. Remember Big Money....errr....Holmgren. Shoot I can't ask him for playoff tickets!!!

It's been a good discussion, but it's Christmas time and I won't be on for a bit. But I'm looking forward to returning and discussing this further with you. I hope you have a merry Christmas.

I'll leave with this: Holmgren wasn't even a good coach in his entire career, including his time with GB and Seattle. His players even admit that he wasn't a good coach. In fact, I'd go so far to say that he was an anchor on that team... Just dragging it down. Gruden is meh. Personally, I don't/didn't want either. I think hiring them is about as good as hiring a nobody like Shurmer. At least with the nobody there's still a promise for greatness, no matter how microscopic it was.

Have a good Christmas

This sounds like something similar to what you are referencing:

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article...39-b5d68d9dc265





Just to be clear, I don't know if I want Schwartz as a head coach, but I think his name will crop up if Pettine is fired.

I'll leave you with a few thoughts for when you return. As you, I'll will be busy next few days and will be slow to answer.

Browns right now are the most compatible then they been in some time. By that, we have legit pieces that fit a specific scheme. Talent level must improve, but that is another debate with no clear winning answer.

I believe Cleveland is in position to simply find better talent replacing exiting. Bringing in a new coach and GM means a change in schemes and personal. It is a wholesale cleansing. Yes, they can bring in pieces to transition. A talented coach can build around existing pieces, but in the end, HC/GM won't feel comfortable until they have their systems in place. See Chip Kelly.

You can do the slow transition Kelly attempted, or you can be done with it clean house building new from the start. Anyway you slice it takes roughly 3 years to implement. Funny Cleveland falls short with 2 years. They get players, but they don't let the players develop together for a season. Think what Cleveland looks like coming to camp next summer with no huge change.

Merry Christmas!