DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 13 Chiefs 17 Post Game Comments

Like he was out there by himself. . .

I'd argue the defense and OL was more responsible for that than Johnny.

He's the one thing that's most important for a QB and can't be taught, A LEADER.

I think the OL played well. I think the D played fairly well. I didn't say they didn't.

Most important. Most!

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/07/cleveland_browns_qb_colt_mccoy_6.html

You did insinuate that Manziel was the reason.

The entire team put themselves in that situation to be there at the end. It is just unfortunate that they could not pull it out.

Manziel appeared to be more of a hindrance than a catalyst, though.

"I wonder how many games Russell Wilson or Cam Newton would of won in their early yrs. without running when their arms or receivers failed. These types QB's can't be split in half."

Cam Newton is 6'5 and he weighs about 250. He's built like a monster. Johnny called himself 5'11 1/2 when telling us all he has real trouble seeing from the pocket. He weighs BARELY 200 pounds. But I'm supposed to LIKE him being our leading rusher? You like Johnny? You want him to be our QB of the future? Then he has to SURVIVE. Did you see the big hits he was taking today? How many of those do you think he has in him? Running backs run, QB's throw. If he runs here or there, that's fine but backyard football will eventually get him killed.

Russell Wilson runs only when he absolutely has to. Most of his runs are planned. Not scrambling around taking big hits. Also, unlike Johnny, Wilson started from day one. You know why? He BUSTED HIS ASS and he EARNED it. Over a QB they had JUST traded for. While Johnny is riding swans and partying it up, Wilson is working on his game. HE gets it. Wilson and Brees and Cam etc. have one thing in common and it's not running or being small. They are first in last out work their ass off kind of guys. The odds were against Brees and Wilson. Hard work OVERCAME those shortcomings. So far I haven't seen Johnny display the DISCIPLINE it takes to overcome those odds.

You point out these players, how about this one? RG3. How did running around work out for him? Now that his wheels are gone, what does he have? What will Johnny have if he blows a knee or an Achilles? How many running QB's have been blown up over the years? Only to find without their legs they don't have much else. Wouldn't it be better to turn him in to a REAL QB that can function within a game plan? Wouldn't it be better to limit the hits he takes? So he can perhaps survive a 16 game season?

You can argue about that w/yourself. I made my point and I really don't care if you disagree.

If you don't like the guy I understand & respect your opinion.
But if you honestly can't see improvement from the beginning of his career to now, I've got a question, who's feeding your German Sheppard?

If you didn't want to discuss that part of the post, you could have easily left it out. But nevertheless, I guess I'm done with it.

Whats the difference between a good and bad team...well just one fixture to look at is pass rush...KC was without two of its elite pass rushers Hali and Houston...yet look how even the backups brought the heat and they would blow up plays and did well disguising it...Heck we brought high number blitz (perhaps bringing in 7 or 8) with our "elite" rushers still intact...and all of our rushers were picked up or tossed aside...something is truly wrong here.

Could JM played better...of course so. His footwork was crap he was pressured regularly and missed some easy throws. His targets blow and would all be #5s, #6s, #7s even on say GBs roster...I think both McCown and Manziel have played really well considering so much of our players have regressed across the board...

Hawkins, Gabriel, Crow, Bowe, Hartline, Dray, Thomas, Bitinio, Greco, Hughes, Bryant, Starks, Dansby, Kirksey, Robertson, Mingo, Whitner, Gipson, Haden, Gilbert, Tramon, Desir, KWilliams etc

Not to mention a ton of rookies whom have done very little in Shelton, Erving, Orchard, etc

Horrid coaching inferior coordinators and schemes that don't work and or that are fconernupon players that don't fit the scheme blow my mind..

Add horrible drafting and teaching and bad decisions in FA...

We are arguing about JM running his ass off trying to make something happen with a 3 win team...We have other huge areas of conern

Thoughts?

- I can't believe there is still one more of these damn games to play.

- Enjoyed seeing Manziel's passion for the game.

- If Haslam's goal was to pair the worst talent evaluator with a truly awful Coach, he hit a
grand slam

- Browns sign Pryor at the 11th hour and subsequently make him inactive in this game.
Especially, while thin at the position.

- It's clear Pettine and Farmer cannot work together.

- Get this season over with so we can hurry up and move on to the next double digit loss
season.

Johnny didn't look bad, he looked outright horrible.

The only time that he set his feet before a throw was when he threw the int that wasn't in the same zip code as Barnidge.

He still rarely makes it past the second read.

He took off and ran out of a perfectly clean pocket more than a few times.

It may look to everyone like we don't run plays where our WR's actually run routes, but when the QB starts playing backyard football, the WR's have to break their routes and do the same thing.

All that said, his coaches know that we are throwing him in when he is not ready and he isn't going to fix these things during the season. (Other than read progression, I am disappointed he hasn't progressed there)

His footwork and throwing mechanics can be fixed with thousands of repetitions in the off-season. His accuracy sucks, because he doesn't throw the ball the same way twice. If you watch his pro day film, when he is not panicking, and is thinking about his mechanics, he throws the ball really well. He can do it, but it's not instinct. And he is just fighting the instinct to run every time he gets the snap right now.

Anyone thinking that we can start him week 1 next year is being delusional. He is so far away from that right now, I'm just hoping for sometime next year.

So the big question is how hard is the kid going to work on his mechanics in the off season?

Right now all I see on the field is a cross between Tim Tebow and Charlie Frye.

I'm curious as to why we don't do more waggles and roll outs? Johnny throws pretty well on the run. The West Coast which is supposedly what Flip calls this thing is rife with those plays. Yet we never have him roll or move on purpose. He'd be great at sprint right option....

If he's to be the guy we really do need to reduce the amount of hits he's going to take. Short accurate passing. Running the ball a lot more often. Plays that work to his strengths when we do pass. Running the ball more

Can you tell I miss last years run game

Where did I say I didn't like him or that he hasn't improved?

not sure what this non sequitur means...your point is?

If you're not convinced that Johnny is the greatest you're a hater....

Your right again, you never said you hated him & there's literally a huge gap between progressed & improved.
What was I thinking?

Serious question...

How much does everyone here honestly think two inches matter in a QBs height?

Bridgewater, Fitzpatrick, Dalton, Hoyer, Dalton, Taylor, Brees, Wilson are all 6'2 or shorter.

I mean, do you think a 6'2 QB can see over a 6'4 to 6'6 lineman significantly better than a 6 foot QB?

Yes. It definitely makes a difference. Whether that difference is significant is up for debate.

You ever been in a crowd and think to yourself, "If I was two inches taller. It would be so much easier to see."? Probably. Have you ever been in the crowd and not be able to see? Probably not, but you have to pick your angles a little wiser. The same rules apply to QBing. I really don't think it's that significant, but it is a bit.

I'm sure it makes a difference, and I'm sure it's significant between 6' and 6'4, but it's just hard for me to comprehend how much two inches can make. I mean think about how small two inches is. It's like from the bottom of the B key to the bottom of the T key on your keyboard. I don't know.

Anyways...

I thought JM was terrible throwing the ball.

Now, I'm torn on JM and whether or not he can be the guy moving forward. I think as far the the eye test goes, I'll say this--he looks like he at least belongs in the NFL. I'm not sure if he is can be a prime time starter, or a backup, or a journeyman, but he certainly can play in this league, and I think he can win. It doesn't look too big for him.

EDIT for addition: I know the way he was running around today is not sustainable and not the recipe for winning consistently, I think it showed a key trait that JM has, and that his escapability and scrambling ability can really take over a game and at this point is an elite trait rivaled is maybe by Wilson, Rogers, Cam, and Ben. Now, if he throws like he did today it won't make a lick of difference, and we can't expect to win many games solely because of it, but I can certainly see how it can change the tide of a game and lead to a big play that can change the entire tide of the game, which always seems to happen AGAINST us (Ben specifically).

And yes, Spirit, I know it's not sustainable and can't be played all the time like that and he has to be better from the pocket, etc. But his ability to escape and him seemingly having eyes in the back of his head is probably at an elite level right now. Everything else just needs to get to average-above average and we can win with him.

So at this point I'm leaning towards just rolling with him next year, which leads me to my next point...

Or WRs are awful. At least, awful in the roles their expected to fill. Benjamin, Hawkins, Gabriel are NOT guys that can excel going up against teams NO 1 and NO 2 CBs. I think they are certainly guys that can contribute to the team, and can be a match up nightmare if they're going against 3s and 4s and LBs. But we need a true NO1 receiver (please don't screw this up Gordon) and a number 2 that at least demands some respect. Guys that have the size to not get completely thrown off their route with a one arm tap from a CB. Guys that can go up and fight for the ball and hold their own against a 5'11 or 6', 200 pound CB.

I didn't think it'd hurt our team as much as it has, but I really believe that it's one of the key contributions to our sucktitude this year (as well as our D for most of the year). We have no one on our team (except maybe Gary) that we can toss a prayer throw and they'll physically be able to win that 1 on 1 battle. You see it all the time across the league--QBs throw a ball that would almost certainly be a incompletion with our WRs, but the WR is able to use his size and strength to get in position and haul it in.

Our WRs can definitely play a role and can contribute, but 170 pounds can not be your main target (and only target, really). We need to draft a guy, hopefully at the top of round 2 unless we trade down because I don't think there is anyone worth taking at pick 1 or 2.

I'm leaning toward Bosa or Jaylon Smith with our first pick and the top WR left with decent size. I'd understand if we took Lynch or Goff though and could get behind it, especially if they started from week 1.

Johnny had a bad game. But I didn't see this while I watched the game... any specific examples? Anyone else see this or disagree with it?

Something else you're not factoring in as well. How thick are helmets and pads? That + A players height can making seeing things difficult.

I don't recall this either.

One thing i would like to see more of is Manziel moving up in the pocket instead of always running outside the tackles. I think he deFinitely needs to improve in this area.

The other thing is he is starting a bad habit of holding the ball forever. There is going through your progressions and there is giving up on your first read too quickly. I think he's giving up on his first read too quickly at times.

But i didn't see alot out clean pockets today.

It's definitely easier when you can see over everyone. That said there are plenty of guys that were short and played well. It's a matter of finding lanes to see through.

This is what I am talking about. He moves outside the the pocket too early as well. If he'd trust his tackles more and simply step up, he wouldn't have to take off half as much. He is creating part of it because his line is expecting him to be in a spot and he isn't there.

I do.

Kellen Winslow II
Braylon Edwards
Brady Quinn
Tim Couch

There have been a few.
Dawg... you should have seen all the 'Leon' (Google: Budweiser/Leon to get the reference) tags when posters talked about Edwards. (I even nicknamed him 'Brayleon'... something I almost NEVER do...) You should have seen all the "Soljah" remarks in reference to K2. Quinn: "Looks like Tarzan/plays like Jane." Couch: 'he sucks' vs. 'he has no support.'


We've had a number of players who ignited the board, but they were ALL from quite awhile ago. Maybe that's why you don't remember the controversy that was attached to them.

JM is the newest... but he's not the only one.

I've seen this dance before in Browns Nation.


just sayin'...

None of those have been anything like Manziel.

Well, maybe Couch was, but I wasn't on the boards at the time.

J/C

As far as Manziel ..... my question is this: Can he be "good enough" on a good team?

The Jets are a playoff team with Ryan Fitzpatrick. Is he a "great" QB, or just effective this year?

The Bengals are a playoff team with Dalton. Is he a top end QB, or a guy with a ton of weapons around him, who just doesn't screw it up?

Houston is a playoff team with Hoyer, and Brandon Weeden coming in and winning the last 2 games for them. Think about that for a minute.

Denver has decided to start Brock Osweiler, who has played 6 games, and has 8 TD and 4 INT. He is hardly a difference maker.

KC has Alex Smith at QB. Some really like him, but he has been a "game manager" type for years.

Kirk Cousins is not screwing things up in DC.

Ditto for Bridgewater in Minnesota. 14 TD and 8 INT is OK, but hardly a year you write about with awe.

That's 7 playoff teams who have guys at QB who are more manager than superstar.

Man, look at scoring defense.

Cincy is #1
Seattle is #2
KC is 3rd
Denver is 4th
Green Bay is 5th
Arizona is next at 6th
New England is 7th
Minnesota is 8th
The Jets are 9th
Carolina rounds out the top 10

Playoff teams, all. These teams all allow less than 20 points/game.

Washington is down the defensive rolls, but they are also in a lousy division. Same with Houston.

Man, defense still wins .... even without a "franchise" QB.

7 of the top 11 rushing teams are in the playoffs. (many of them are among the top defensive teams)

Passing?

San Diego
New Orleans
Pittsburgh
Giants
Philly
Atlanta
Baltimore

These teams are among the top 10 in passing, yet out of the playoffs.

Believe it or not, 5 of the top 10 teams in passing TD are also out of the playoffs.

Is the NFL a passing league? I think that great QBs win in the playoffs, but is one necessary to get to the playoffs?

Can Manziel be a guy who can do enough to win if the team can put a top 10 defense around him, and combine that with an effective run game? I see reasons to say yes, and reasons to say no. Should we take next year to make sure? Maybe.

I also want to say one thing about Austin Pasztor. Man, if he keeps on playing like he has so far, I may have to learn to spell his name.

He has done a really nice job pulling in the run game. I have to wonder if maybe our best Guard duo might be Pasztor and Bitonio. I have hope, at least now, that maybe Erving can be the guy who could replace Mack if he does leave. Greco has been one of my favorite players, but he might be the odd man out. (or might be a super sub)

They say that fans always overreact to the good and bad. I know that's true. However, I did see some encouraging things today. I also saw some things that were still concerns. I think that the weather helped the defense today, and hurt the offense. Anyway .... I still do feel somewhat better this week than last, even with a loss.

j/c

This team didn't give up. I'm a big 'character' fan, and I love seeing this. They could have mailed in a game that led to a 34-10 rout, and they refused to give up. As bad as other things have been, this one thing has remained consistent. If we're going to fault the coaching staff for much of what we've seen this year, it's only fair that we credit them when we see evidence of their influence.

John Manziel brings heart to Browns Football. He does things on the field that other QB's (even much better QB's) simply don't bring. And he'll do things that other QB's won't even try. For that reason alone, I want to see more of him next year, with an offense that's built to maximize his strengths. Yes... I said it: even in a loss, JM showed me enough to make me want to see more. I don't care if the Browns decide to draft another QB this year (I might even support such a choice), but I'd be really intrigued to see what a Browns O looked like, if they were actually designed for the starting QB- instead of yet another generic O designed to accommodate o 'plug & play QB.' It could be the difference between an 8-8 year, and a playoff run.

We have no D identity. Ray Farmer traded away a number of seasoned players who could have solidified this squad. We don't pass rush well. We don't stop the run. We don't create turnovers. To be fair, the Browns D has improved in the last 3 games, but daaaaang... if it takes until Nov/Dec for an entire squad to learn and execute their assignments, something's wrong with either the scheme or the coaching. These guys are pros. Things should come together faster than this.

Isaiah Crowell is DEVASTATING when he makes one cut, and runs downhill. Duke Johnson is shifty and slippery, but needs a LOT of space to make things happen. Game plan for both of them according to their strengths, and you have something, going forward.

____________________

The Browns are 3/4ths of a team right now. They lack true impact players (about 2-4 on both sides of the ball) to establish themselves as a playoff hopeful. Imagine what CLE might look like with JJ Watt on D and OBJ on O. Totally different team. And that's with a change of only 2 players. We have a chance to get 1/2 of that back next year with Josh Gordon. We have (an aging) Kruger who could have played that role for us this year.

Browns have a core of decent 'complimentary players' already in place. As many as I've seen since The Return. They need 2 or 3 'top-tier' talents (on both sides of the ball) to put them in the AFCN playoff race. IMHO, it would be a colossal mistake for Haslam to 'clean-sweep' what we have.

Just opinions and guesses. No guarantees that my opinion's correct...


Clemmy.

We could argue about degrees of intensity, but I'm not inclined to go there. Such POV's are always subjective... and memory clouds over time.

All I was really saying is this: There have been Browns players in the past who have polarized this fansite just as much as JM has. Not more: not less.

And if they polarized this community, I'm sure that they did the same for the entire Browns fanbase.

Folks are the same the world 'round, Dawg.

I still remember getting 'dressed down' by good DT friends for suggesting that Courtney Brown was "the NFL's best-paid sidelines stationary bike-rider"... and CB doesn't even make my Top 5 of 'postworthy players' where this subject is concerned.

While that sort of running by the QB is not sustainable as a team identity there is a part of it that is sustainable. Opposing defenses, having seen JM drop a 100 rushing yards on a damn good defense, will have to game plan for the possibility of him doing the same against them. Defenses can't ignore that. He may never run for another 100 yards but if defenses are not prepared for it he can, in critical situations, move the chains as he did yesterday.

Any time the opposing defenses have to spend time on that possibility is a plus for the Browns. JM doesn't even have to run for a yard. If he has the defense thinking he might take off at any time it effects their preparation and game plan.

It's like preparing for the Wilson-led Seahawks. Wilson is not going to drop a 100 routinely. But when you get them in 3rd and 12 thinking they're at a disadvantage because you got them where you want them, that's when Wilson takes off for 19 yards and moves the chains.

That's what JMs skill brings. The ability to rush for positive yardage and the added ability to make positive plays from the pocket while defenses are preoccupied with his rushing ability.

I couldn't understand what happened to his accuracy early on. Now that I know he was playing with a cold I think that explains it to me. It's not an excuse but it sure more understandable knowing he was ill.

I think that he could be much better than just a game manager. He has an arm/running talent that doesn't come around very often. The problem is that while the ceiling is high, the floor is also low.

JM's biggest obstacle lies between his ears. If he is willing to put in the effort to fix his footwork and throwing motion, the sky is the limit. But that is a big if! This kid is used to putting in a half-assed effort during the week and then just winging it on game day. That won't work in the NFL. The idea that he would actually put in work in the off-season fix his flaws is probably so foreign to him that you'd probably need to hire an interpreter just to explain it to him.

Next season his agent is going to put out a story about how hard he worked in the off season. All agents do it for QB's fighting for a starting job. How true that story is will make or break his season and probably his career. It's all on Johnny right now.

Good take Deputy - I too hope he works hard this off-season on correcting his mechanics. I love the passion he shows on the field and the players seem to rally around it.

JF missed a ton of passes. His footwork in the pocket was all over.

Our WRs really suck.

Gaines is the goto target. Well maybe Williams is, both corners are horrible.

We let Smith run it all over us. No Qb contain.

Just one more game and the misery that is Cleveland Browns football is over!

j/c:

CLE-KC GRADES: POE CONTINUES TO IMPRESS IN VICTORY

Cleveland Browns
– This was a game that QB Johnny Manziel (-5.5) would love to forget. He was effective when running/scrambing, gaining 109 yards on 11 runs and forcing four missed tackles. But his throwingwas brutally ineffective. He finished with a -9.2 passing grade, thanks to multiple turnover-potential plays, and just plain missing his receivers. When he was under pressure, he completed just 1-of-9 for 11 yards. The Chiefs decided to sit back and rarely blitz, instead forcing Manziel to try to beat them just by reading the defense and throwing. He did not, completing just 11-of-28 for 123 yards and an interception. Not a good sign for Manziel’s future with the Browns.

-The Browns’ defense didn’t deserve this loss, as they were able to hold the Chiefs to just 17 points and played very effectively. The defense was Led by OLB Nate Orchard (+2.7), who finished with three defensive stops, a sack, and an interception on the day. It was also a great day for OLB Paul Kruger (+2.1), who’s four QB hurries led the team. He also had three defensive stops and finished with a positive grade in the run defense game. One player who struggled in limited snaps was DE Xavier Cooper (-3.4), who failed to record a pressure, and had just one defensive stop on his way to the lowest grade among Browns’ defenders

-It was a mixed day for the Browns’ offensive line. RT Mitchell Schwartz (+4.1) continued his should-be-Pro Bowl caliber season, finishing with the highest grade among all Browns’ players. He was very effective in the run game, opening up holes and allowing very disruptive plays. In the passing game, he allowed just one hurry. On the flip side, RG Cameron Erving (-5.2) allowed four hurries, and was extremely ineffective in the run game, allowing multiple run stops and finishing with a -4.1 grade there. Overall the offensive line allowed no sacks and no hits, but 10 hurries.

Top Performers:

T Mitchell Schwartz (+4.1)
OLB Nate Orchard (+2.7)
SS Donte Whitner (+2.3)
OLB Paul Kruger (+2.1)
TE Jim Dray (+2.0)

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...ess-in-victory/

Disagree on the overall Erving grade.

The Browns didn't lose that game as much as they just ran out of time.

Have you ever, in your entire life, gone up on your toes to see something better?

That's 2 inches.

Nailed it.
I have not been a believer for most of his time here, but I'm now seeing enough from him that I believe if he gets as serious about his mechanics as he has been about learning to read defenses and run the offense, that we could actually skip taking a QB in the draft. IF.

They have until mid-April to decide on how he is progressing in this regard. I'd love for the kid to take it and make this his new lifestyle. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it, but it'd be great to see.