DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Paul DePodesta joining Browns as Chief Strategy Officer

Not at all. You can discuss the intended structure with the candidates as they are interviewed. It's just kept under wraps and not for public consumption.



As I said, all of this could be stated or discussed during the interview process. What the team did by making it public was to limit the candidates they could interview by rule and also limited who may even agree to interview because of the perception the team made public.



When the team itself does things like name the owners wife part of the coaching search and make analytics the main statements about the rebuilding process, it's easy to misunderstand the message. At face value, fans don't like it. These announcements were done half baked and created confusion.,



There are a lot of intelligent lawyers in the NFL. They don't have the final say on the 53 man roster. You can't ignore or spin away what the team plainly stated as fact.



I find it quite easy to see how football will be a much more complicated sport to use this formula. Buying into such an idea will take evidence, not lip service.



Sorry I haven't seen the mathematical breakdown to confirm your assertion.



Let's look at the facts. We have an owner who can't assemble a coaching staff or FO in the traditional way. This will be his third group in four years. Pure failure at its finest.

Suddenly the fan base is expected to buy into the idea that some green horn owner who has failed miserably to this point, suddenly has the ability to build some revolutionary new way to build an NFL team?

Are you kidding me?

Well played Pit

No, the fan base isn't expected to buy in to the idea that suddenly Haslam has figured out the perfect plan.

-But it doesn't appear this was a spur of the moment idea assuming reports that he's been meeting with a variety of people over the last several months trying to get input.

-No matter where we all fell in terms of Pet and/or Farmer, we didn't need metrics to tell us as fans that something wasn't working. It appears that the data Shiney and Sashi tried to present to PetFarm explained what and why it wasn't working, so it also appears there is at least some validation for the concept.

-DePodesta seems to be a rather well respected and well regarded genius of sorts. He may or may not genuinely care about restoring the franchise, I don't know, but I have a difficult time believing that a guy would leave a lucrative career in baseball suddenly because he liked Dee Haslam's Apple Pie.

I will say though, that the organization could probably use a better public relations manager for sure (if we even have one??) Maybe Nathan Zagura could be promoted.. or maybe Dee's Apple Pie could get Jimmy Donovan on board?

I do agree with you that either certain wording could have been chosen better, or needs to be clarified... which is exactly why I'm not commenting on the situation in terms of definites.

I like pie.

After reading your post ddub, I'd say the devil is slipping in his debating style. lol

No matter how this all turns out, the situation is a PR nightmare and could have been handled much better. Publicly stating that a lawyer with little to no background in NFL personnel has the final say on the 53 man roster makes no sense at all.

We'll see how analytics works out with keeping or trading Joe Thomas. If Thomas is traded it will be my firm opinion that analytics is dominating our decisions, not just a tool as part of the equation.

If they trade Joe Thomas, I believe it will be a very strong selling point as to why the word analytics starts with the word anal.

If they trade Thomas, it could very well be that he asked to be traded.

If they trade Joe, it's more important looking at the aftermath. If the numbers show they can do different and produce similar results, it is hard arguing it was a raw deal.

I'm a numbers guys. I hate if they trade Joe. I like loyalty. Then again, if Joe is traded to say New England, similar to Phil Dawson, I'm ok with it because he deserves a chance. I'll never forget Jerry Sherk (#72). Sucked he played on a crappy team his whole career too.

Well, Devil's posts were interesting as were your responses to him. So before he got a chance to respond to you I stepped in and did it.

Here's where it is with me. When Haslem fired yet another HC I was pissed and hurt. Pissed because he did it yet again and hurt because I know this may never work out as they hope. I was so angry I was ready to help my neighbor's dog commit suicide. (Well, he WAS barking and it sounded like he was laughing at me for being a Browns fan)

What I did is what I usually do in my real life, I looked at the other side of it and tried to understand the thinking behind the decision. I looked at all kinds of stuff about analytics and read a lot about Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta. I watched lengthly videos for information. I looked especially for any positive things I could take away from that. It didn't bother that I was being laughed at as a Pollyana, pie-in-the-sky thinker, positive Priscilla, or said to be "buying into the hype". I was just working something out the way I do. It's always worked for me to understand the other side instead of digging-in in defense or plunging my head in the sand or plugging my ears and rolling my eyes saying, "La-la-la-la-la"

To be honest I'm completely stymied from understanding the power hierarchy due to my previous understanding of what I believe is the proper set-up for an NFL team. That's the hardest part for me in "getting" the organizational changes.

The analytics thing doesn't bother me so much because 1) I think it can be a good tool to take into consideration and 2) I don't believe it will be rammed down anyone's throat as the first and foremost way to make a decision. And for a bonus 3) I think the first place they will use it is in evaluating the organization itself. In other words, I don't see it as being a revolutionary 180 degree turn around from day one.

So if you've subscribed to my posts... ...if you've read my posts you can see I'm all over the place on everything from Haslem, to the new approach, to the HC & GM hires to Johnny Manziel and more. I'm basically thinking out loud, throwing everything I think out there, listening to responses and other people's opinions separate from mine as I try to develop my own thoughts.

My knee-jerk reaction is to hate everything about this. But what I really hate is being like that. So as I try to understand these idiots in charge I'm not quite hating but not in love with it either.

I totally believe they'll trade Joe. Whether he asks for it or not. He's still a player at the top of this game, (has he ever been anything else?), and has a lot of value in a trade. Value that could be used to help jump-start our rebuild.

He's 31 years old. Right in the wheelhouse age for Banner to trade him. Get the trade value out of him while you can, so to speak. I think these guys will think the same way. In their minds, we're going to suck for another 2-3 years anyway so how much can he help; why keep him around only to have him retire just when things are looking up sending them to scramble for a LT. I have a lot more to say on why I think they'll trade Joe but I'll save it for another time or another thread.

I will say though, that it's not all analytics that will trade him. It has to do with value to the offense, not only trade value. Knowing that your OL is only as good as it's weakest link, if we lose Mack and Schwartz there's your weakness and your reason to trade Joe. What good can Joe do if the defense plans to run amok on Erving and/or the new RT. Joe could continue to be perfect on every play, but those weak links make his value to the line nil. No matter how good Joe is our QB will still get punished. Common sense says trade him to get the value out of him while you still can because he can't play all the OL positions at once.

What we would lose by trading Joe is his experience. When things aren't going well who do the OL players look to for guidence? Erving? Bitanio? The new RT? Grecco? He could help. Joe could keep the OL together and help them improve by being their mentor, all the while playing like a HOFer.

I still think they trade him. It depends on the new HC and what he'll allow himself to be talked into.

I will say this too. Banner let Dawson go. I think that was an analytics move. Phil met the age and cost variables that says to let him go. Kickers aren't that important anyway. you gotta have one so you go get one. Problem with that is in 2014 we lost, IIRC, 3 games due to bad kicks. Phil would have been money on all of them. 10-6 instead of 7-9. That's how close we were to one of those 1 year turn arounds. (It might have only been 2 games of bad kicks but I think it was 3).

I don't expect Joe to be back, not because he doesn't want to, but because anal-ytics will dictate we trade him. I don't want to hear this crap that I would be excited if I only understood what analytics is. This team has been in a constant state of disarray and dysfunction since Butch had his meltdown. Since that time we've had 2 non-playoff resulting runs which were only due to qb's finding fool's gold and stringing together some wins for half a season. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and boy do we have a precedent. I've never been this down on the team...and I've been a Browns fan for over 40yrs and on this board since 2000. Until this season, I've been one of the posters that argued with the "negative nancy's".

Pit, I'm still sticking to my overly sarcastic point about Dee's Apple Pie because if her pie IS all that, we should have no problems getting whoever we want when we want (and thanks for the compliment of my (prior) debating skills lol

ddub: I think you make a great point in that most of the analytics stuff is going to initially be aimed internally at a lot of non-roster related issues.

It may be that the Bat Computer (yes, I'm pushing hard to get this put in common usage to refer to our analytics) ends up being yet another Expressway to Hell as some here are suggesting, but IMO those predictions rely too much on assumptions. FOr example the HC search: it's assumed that the Bat Computer will make all the decisions so NO experienced HC would ever seriously consider coming here. This assumes that there isn't an experienced head coach out there that sees value in having a Bat Computer and wouldn't be excited about working with a guy like DePo.

Precisely! All that past behavior was put in to the Bat Computer and it said we should do something different!

I don't buy that on Thomas. If he is traded, it is because he requested to be traded. He has already floated that possibility. If Thomas was a back, then 31 might be considered a tradable age. As a LT, he still has 4-5 years of prime career in front of him. No metric is going to point to trading him while the trading is good. He is 2-3 years away from that being a possibility.

I seriously think that a computer model would show that his trade value will never be higher than it is now. What team wouldn't pay dearly to have their LT situation settled for the next 4-5 yrs?

And another model can measure fan reaction and ticket sales if we traded him.

No offense bro, but it sure seems like you have only been looking on one side of things. You have completely bought into what the Haslams are selling and dismiss and/or ridicule every opinion that doesn't fall into line w/the majority thinking.

mac, 100% agree every bad decision, and there will be many, will point directly to analytics. Analytics isn't an exact science. It's a probability or percentage of predictable outcome.

I love it too how everyone instantly states Joe Thomas is gone because of analystics. I want to see proof. Analytics works when combine with art. In today's football, you can't build a winning team having a football guru. Just as you can't build a team with numbers. It takes both. It still is important hiring the right Coach and GM to instill football knowledge into the equation.

Browns aren't doing anything any other team is doing. They simply made it public they are using analytics as part of their business model.

Give DePodesta credit on his business practices. He resurrected two beat down baseball franchises.

I also don't think you turn this piece of crap franchise into a winning model in a year or two. It will take time. Hopefully they make it watchable until then.

You used purple for that?

None taken.

It may seem like I'm only looking at one side of things because I am. I feel I already understand the other side. It's the new side I don't understand and that's the one I've been trying to learn about so that's the one I study and talk about.

Why focus my attention to what used to be, what I think is right, since it's not coming back. That's too much like bemoaning a player or coach who's not coming back or a draft pick we didn't make. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Neither have I completely bought into what the Haslems are selling nor do I dismiss and/or ridicule every opinion that doesn't fall into line with the majority thinking, (Which I don't even know what the "majority thinking" is. As I see it right now the majority thinking is mistrust of this new thing.) I don't know that I ridiculed anyone at any point other than telling you I choose to understand rather than bitch and complain from which you took as me calling you names.

If you read my posts initially following the Pettine firing then you know how I felt about that. Very much so like yourself and Clem. I bring up Clem because he described very well how I was feeling.

I hate feeling like that.

Three days later I started looking in earnest at this new thing. Immediately you pigeon-holed me into one who is buying in to this mess. How in the world could I buy into it so quickly and "completely" when two days earlier I knew nothing about this analytics thing, or the people who were put in charge, or the reasoning behind destroying the scheme and roster continuity? Nor did I even see it coming.

What I did is what I usually do in my real life, I looked at the other side of it. I searched information about Sashi Brown and Paul DePodesta, I searched information about analytics and what it means to sports, I watched videos about analytics, one that featured DePodesta to try and get a read on his thoughts and personality.

I couldn't do anything about what had already been done, the firings and upcoming reboot. So I tried to understand what their plan really is and how it might unfold. I looked for the positives in that plan, as I tried to understand. I need to see positives to accept what has happened. I still haven't accepted it.

How did I go from my post in the "Farmer/Pettine fired" thread, "Since I was 8 years old the Browns have had my entire heart and soul. Season by season I lived and died with the fate of the team and never once regretted my devotion, never once, until now", to "completely buying into what the Haslems are selling", in just two days?!

What you saw, and misread, was me searching for answers. I could have dug in with my original concern and stayed stuck there refusing to learn and understand this mess or I could try to understand. I chose the latter.

Did you notice that I never got offended by anything anyone said regarding my "buy in"? I was not dug into the buy in. I made the statements I made and posted information I found looking for responses that would help me get a grip on it all.

The trouble with this board somethimes is that all one has to do is say "something" to get classified into a category of which one can never live down. I don't understand that but I do understand that's how it is.

If you have continued to read my posts you've seen that I'm all over the place between trust and mistrust of the organization. I don't feel like I have to make my final decision on exactly where I stand on this in the first week of the dreadful news. I feel I have the right to think about it and change my mind as I learn more. I even have the audacity to believe I can change my mind again if I choose. Call that wishy-washy, but I call it a willingness to learn rather than digging in with my initial reaction.



I just went back and read my post from where you got the quote above. Did you read the whole post? I explained all this stuff in that post.

Yup.

Here's my thing Vers, maybe in some sick twisted way, I'm not freaking out about the changes because I take comfort in the fact that at least we aren't doing the same damn thing we've been doing for over a decade. I don't know. Doesn't mean I've completely bought in to all of this.

And I won't until I see how this puppy is in action because right now a) we don't have all the pieces in place and b) admittedly Haslam hasn't been specific enough in describing how this thing is supposed to work. Which is why I find a lot of the negative reaction to all this... I hate to use the word ridiculous because it may be too personal... but, it's probably accurate.

Look, I understand the general skepticism of Haslam, I understand your concern about too many cooks (and I think it's valid), and I do understand why many people don't understand how a lawyer and baseball guy can help us.

But just like you say about the Manziel Haters, there is a difference between being skeptical/critical and being a blind hater. I think for some the same thing is going on here.

People keep saying as fact that Sashi and DePo are going to punch a bunch of keys in the Bat Computer and that it will determine our 53 regardless of what the HC or GM (Senior Scout) want, yet so far there is ZERO indication that this is how it will be run. The only thing that might allude to that, and Pit has brought this up, is the "ultimate authority" on the roster. But as has been pointed out, that could mean anywhere from hand picking players to simply being the guy who designs/signs the contracts and is the point of contact for player transactions.

And DePo? There are other teams that use analytics much more than we do to great success. Why is hiring the guy who from my understanding practically invented the concept to develop our analytics department such a bad thing?

I think it was this thread earlier where I pointed out that being a successful Manager has less to do with the product and more to do with organizing the people, systems, and logistics. It's why corporations hire high level managers for their ability to manage and organize, not necessarily because of their product expertise. Now the challenge is that the product in this case IS people, but there's more than just the 53 man roster that needs to be considered. DePo may not have much in the way of Pro football experience, but he does have 2 decades of Pro sports experience. It's not irrelevant.

IMO much of the negative reaction to all this isn't based on much fact at all. And in fairness, may positive assertions can't be justified for the same very reason. I know some guys have provided some good info on analytics, but until we have all the pieces in place and see this thing in motion, we won't know just how much we'll actually rely on all of it.

So yeah, based on all that.. I put it in purple lol

Good post D Dawg.

You are only looking on one side of things.. I have not seen one good post from you that actually proves a point, other than insulting others opinions..

There are times I swear as much as you bitch about Mac, I think you ghost as him...

Can you without, insulting or saying ya'all or piling up on you... give me a good explanation on why this won't work..

And the excuse that they have failed over and over doesn't work either..forget the past... please explain in your words on how this isn't going to work.

If you were to ask Paul DePodesta if numbers told the whole story, he would tell you "no." They just make the picture more complete.

As with everything else in life, it's a matter of to what degree it is used. Is it the 1st tool out of the toolbox, or the 2nd or 3rd? Do the numbers create a general list of "most viable" players, or do they create a hard and fast list of player the team will, or will not consider, no matter what the eyes say?

That is the concern I (and others) have.

The Oakland As and the Houston Rockets are the two of the most analytically inclined organizations in sports. Both don't rely on the numbers.

The tools are not used 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. They are used together to come to the best conclusion (hopefully).

I would put the 76'ers up there as another team that uses analytics heavily, and they seem to use analytics above most other factors.

The Sixers are also accomplishing their goal of gaining many high draft picks.

Also, they are the exception, not the rule. Most NBA teams lean heavily on the numbers (the Spurs, Warriors, and Thunder to name a few). The Sixers goal was to be ad for several seasons and gain many high draft picks. They viewed that as the best way to get a super star player.

Exactly. People keep using the Sixers as an example, and they aren't even the poster boy for using analytics as their plan. As you stated (and I have previously in this thread), the Sixers plan is to tank to gain high picks. That is why they traded every useful piece they had....to get high picks. Most basketball teams in analytics say that you acquire as many useful assets as possible, and then trade for your "superstar." This is what the Rockets (Harden), the Warriors (Iggy) both did, and they are much closer to being pure analytically run than the Sixers.

It's a rough job but somebody had to do it!



I really didn't take it that way at all. Farmer was doing a terrible job no matter who was or wasn't twisting his arm. Pettine I don't really feel could have been expected to get more wins given a harder schedule and roster turnover, but basic coaching fundamentals such as team discipline, tackling, clock management and basic coaching fundamentals simply seemed to be lacking. That falls on the HC.



I'm not going to try to discount your logic. I've tried a very similar strategy in the past. Trying to sell myself on ideas that I thought were totally from left field. On people, coaches and strategies I thought would fail at the beginning. But from my point of view, I've learned from what I perceive were my mistakes from taking such a point of view. At this time, I'm far too apathetic to try and buy into what I see as the most reaching form of hierarchy I've ever seen displayed by this team.

The last time I actually bought into a coaching staff without having to employ such a strategy was Chud. And that was because of the strong staff he assembled. Then he wasn't given any time at all.

I have never totally discounted that analytics can be a part of the process. That's not the issue with me. The issue is that it was publicly put out there as if the numbers people are the ones who have roster control and final say. That the football people hired after words are very limited in their say and input. If that's not the case, the situation was handled and put out there extremely poorly for it takes a lot of spin to make it sound otherwise with the way it was presented.



At the very least, it makes me wonder how true football people would be interested in this job given the way the hierarchy was presented. Now people can try to interpret what they were saying or trying to say, but what they said at face value was foolish.



If what you say is true, it should have been presented as such and not presented as though they had the top control. that is not how it has been presented.



I do to some extent do the same thing, however, when people try to interject their own definitions and add things this FO did not say to try to devalue the things this FO did say, I tend to give it little if any value.

And I do sort of subscribe to your posts since I do read all of them. lol



I'm far too apathetic to "hate" anything in regards to this team at the present time. I too hate being like that but the results since our return since 1999 leave me little choice when trying to retain my sanity.


I didn't quote the rest of your post, but I will comment. Your LT protects your QB's blind side. It's why they are far more valued than any other position on your OL and the FA price tag, if you can even find a decent one in the FA market, is so high. It's why teams pay almost any price to retain a good one. He IS the health of your QB! Blind side hits are the most devastating to a QB. Protecting a QB's blind side is the most important thing you can do to help develop a young QB.

Despite analytics and numbers, those are facts that matter most. That's why I will let that move, or lack there of to determine whether numbers or football lead the decision making process moving forward.

I don't blame anyone for trying to find the bright spots here. I don't mind people trying to interpret things the team stated. Trying to add things into it that weren't said. After all, it's the only way to try to make sense of it all.

To me it's like trying to say that invading Iraq was a foolish thing to do the first time, but let's do it again! lol

DePodesta interview.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/paul-depodesta-explains-his-path-to-the-cleveland-browns

That's the kind of thinking we need around Berea.
Question EVERYTHING.

Yeah, they should even question why they are questioning everything..............

Paul will be on the Dan Le Batard show at noon eastern. The show is on ESPNU if you want to watch too.