DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Thomas selected to PFWA All-NFL Team

Those guys have great recognition skills and make sound decisions, so they make defenses pay when they try to bring too much heat.

Have you noticed how much time defenders tend to spend in our backfield hitting our QB's, depsite our line more often than not buying them a TON of time?



So, probably need to add a few items:

4. weak supporting cast at the skill positions (WR's that can't get open)
5. mediocre recognition skills

I didn't say you don't need a good line, I just think drafting 1st and 2nd rounders every other year isn't helping keeping our QB upright. We could have drafted maybe some skill postions instead.

This is not an insult, but I know you don't watch a lot of games and that you rely on stats a lot, but man, you are really off base about your comments about Brady throwing the ball faster than other qbs.

Did you watch the Chiefs/Pats game? Alex Smith was being pressured immediately and Brady had all day to throw.

I guess most of you ignored this the first time I said it, but in these particular playoffs, the biggest differences between the teams were on the OL and DL.

That doesn't mean I think we should draft an offensive lineman w/a high pick this year. It means that people undervalue the unit.

This might be kinda evil, but a small part of me would like to see the uproar about the OL next year should Joe, Mack, and Schwartzie all take off. LMAO.........it would be hysterical to hear all the posts and how different they would be from now. Kinda like this off-season when so many loved Pet and how they felt about him at the end of the year. Funny what losing does to the minds of some.

I understand Rast's point. A team can indeed neutralize JT by not playing a stud over him. You'd have a HOF tackle stopping some bum that any bum LT could stop. This isn't hard to understand.


This however doesn't mean you don't need a solid LT. Teams look to exploit any weakness and stay away from strengths.

That said, I wouldn't seek to trade JT. If however, Joe requested a trade, I'd take the best deal I could. Out of respect to him, and because he is at the tipping point of his career. Understand, when I say tipping point, his play has been so high, it not like he isn't going to be very good for 3-4-5 more years, but he is pretty much at the halfway point of his career. The last 2-3 aren't going to be as good as his first 2-3 years.

Man..........you guys....kill me sometimes.

Why? I spelled out my view. I don't think it off limits to discuss we might be better off in the long run by trading him.

The guy is great. Maybe the best ever. What ticks me off is we wasted his best years playing for a crappy team.

No, I meant believing that it would be a smart move to put a weak defensive player against Joe.

Come on, man! Do you guys really think that NFL coaches don't think of things like that?

Put your weakest pass rusher on Joe and I am going to tell my QB to shuffle left each and every pass play and make that rusher that Schwartz is blocking have to go a country mile to get the sack. The guy that Joe is blocking is never going to get there. So now blitz a corner or a safety on the left to stop me but I'm also going to be flooding that left side of the field with WR's waiting for you to do that.

Rast's point may sound good, but it's not real. Now I might flip my best pass rusher to the other side if Joe's eating his lunch and he isn't getting any sacks, but I would not be dumb enough to do it very often for the reasons above.

Now as far as Joe getting up there...
Yes he is and I can't argue with trading him if there were a monster offer on the table. There isn't. Denver wouldn't give us a low 1st and a low 3rd. He is worth more than that to us. You mentioned "Buy low and sell high" but it sounds more like buy high and sell low to me. Then you guys that don't want us to spend more draft high draft picks on o-lineman will watch us draft another LT in the first round because news flash, nobody else on the roster can play it!

Last anybody that says Joe has poor character, would rather be fishing, (The guy wouldn't even let them take him off the field in garbage time and has played through 3 MCL injuries and 2 high ankle sprains without missing a snap), or isn't a leader, is just making things up to support a very uneducated opinion that you can neutralize a great LT simply by putting your worst pass rusher on him.

Joe's made his money, if he'd rather be fishing, he'd retire from this crap team and be fishing right now. In the same breath you guys whine about us not starting Gilbert who looked like a petrified turd when he played and refused to go back on the football field when asked. Theres a freakin leader for ya!

Very nice post.

Can we lock the thread after that post?

We should. The discussion's over.

No, because then somebody will resurrect the "False start Joe" thread.

I watch a ton of football. Watch Brady closely. He gets he ball out so quickly, on average, that he eliminates the opposing pass rush all by himself. The ball was coming out as soon as his back foot hit on so many plays that I almost felt bad for the Chiefs defenders. lol Was it every down? Of course not. Did he hang in the pocket on some plays? Of course. Did he get the ball out ridiculously fast on a majority of plays? Yes he did.

Less than 2 seconds to get the ball out is ridiculously fast in my opinion, and that's how fast Brady got the ball out on 21-27 attempts. (which verifies what my eyes told me. It did not decide what I saw) Brady was the reason the Chiefs got no pressure on him. The OL had a good game, but they only had to hold their blocks for a minimal time.

This article verifies what I said:

Ups and downs from Patriots' win over Chiefs | Boston Herald
http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/patriots/2016/01/ups_and_downs_from_patriots_win_over_chiefs

After dissecting the film from the Patriots’ 27-20 victory against the Chiefs, here are some thoughts on the game. Some observations are more specific to a particular play, while others have more of a long-range viewpoint.

There was no question the passing game was back in rhythm with the return of Julian Edelman, who beat everyone the Chiefs threw his way, and Tom Brady unloaded the ball with lightning quickness, which neutralized the pass rush and allowed the offensive line to play its best game in a while, perhaps all season.

Patrick Chung was also outstanding as the primary guy on Pro Bowl tight end Travis Kelce, but he wasn’t the only defensive player who had a fine performance.

Good timing

1. From the snap to the throw, Brady’s average time of release was 2.16 seconds on his 42 pass attempts. Brady was 21-of-27 for 177 yards and two touchdowns when releasing the ball within 2.0 seconds, 5-of-8 for 51 yards when releasing it within 2.1 to 2.5 seconds and 2-of-7 for 74 yards when releasing it after 2.6 seconds.

2. Brady averaged 2.24 seconds per throw on his 16 attempts to Edelman. However, by removing an early scramble that led to an Edelman drop (5.8-second snap to throw), Brady’s average time of release to Edelman was 2.0 seconds.

3. Brady was even quicker to Rob Gronkowski, which spoke to Gronk’s rapid improvement Saturday morning. Brady averaged 1.88 seconds per throw to Gronkowski. Gronk’s first catch, a 32-yarder on the opening drive, was a 3.4-second snap to throw, but the remaining seven targets took less than 2 seconds and averaged 1.66 seconds.

4. Brady’s quick release was the primary reason that he wasn’t sacked for just the second time all season, but the offensive line deserves its share of the credit, too. Marcus Cannon allowed two pressures, and Gronkowski surrendered a Dee Ford hit in the fourth quarter when Brady held the ball for 5.8 seconds. Aside from that, Sebastian Vollmer, Josh Kline, Bryan Stork, David Andrews and Shaq Mason were very strong. Mason did well in his first start and second appearance at right guard.

5. Brady telegraphed his touchdown sneak at the line, not that it wasn’t an obvious play choice as the world awaited the result of the challenge from the previous play. Brady planted his left foot behind his right foot as soon as he got under center, which has always been a tell for his sneaks. Because Brady had the left foot planted as soon as he got under center, it made it seem as though it was the play call in the huddle, as opposed to an audible before the snap.

Receiving line

6. Brady’s 16-yard touchdown pass to Gronkowski was a thing of beauty. It all started when Brady noticed Pro Bowl safety Eric Berry was giving Gronk a 7-yard cushion at the line, so Brady changed the play to push Gronkowski wider left for more room. After the snap, Brady pump faked to sell Gronk’s first move, a 6-yard hitch, and Berry bought it. Gronkowski then raced free to the end zone for an easy score. To show how confident Brady was that this play would work, it took 1.9 seconds from the snap to the throw. Brady saw that play unfold as the offense was getting set at the line.

7. Some plays are just unstoppable, such as Gronkowski’s 8-yard touchdown. Cornerback Sean Smith couldn’t have covered it any better, but Brady and Gronk connected on a perfect back-shoulder throw when Gronk shielded Smith from the sun.

8. Edelman caught passes against six guys in coverage: four for 38 yards against cornerback Marcus Peters, two for 15 yards against safety Tyvon Branch, one for 14 yards against Smith, one for 13 yards against safety Ron Parker, one for 11 yards against outside linebacker Dee Ford and one for 9 yards against inside linebacker Derrick Johnson. Edelman caught seven passes for 71 yards between the numbers and three balls for 29 yards outside the numbers.

9. Peters’ pattern of playing 8-10 yards off the line of scrimmage made him susceptible because it was so easy to game plan against it. As a result, Brady beat Peters on 6-of-8 throws for 80 yards, including a 42-yarder to Keshawn Martin in the second quarter. Peters had two pass breakups to his credit, but the fourth-quarter PBU in the end zone could have easily been pass interference.

10. The Patriots had six drops in their first three possessions, but none after that. Edelman (four), Danny Amendola (one) and James White (one) were the culprits.

11. Brandon LaFell has drawn some heat this season, but he did a nice job to catch a 9-yard pass on third-and-7 in the first quarter. He got through Parker, saw an incoming Johnson and spun away from a hit.

12. White continued to make tacklers miss. He juked Johnson for an extra 4 yards on his 10-yard reception and got past safety Husain Abdullah at the line of scrimmage on his 29-yard catch.

Under cover

13. The Patriots threw a ton of coverages at tight end Travis Kelce, but Chung followed him in some capacity on nearly every play. Alex Smith was 4-of-7 for 15 yards when targeting Chung, including - of-6 for 14 yards on throws to Kelce. Chung was targeted three times on third downs and didn’t allow a single conversion, and Smith also threw an incompletion into the end zone with Chung in coverage on Kelce. Chung allowed a 13-yard reception to Kelce, but the other three catches were for 1 yard or fewer.

14. Cornerback Justin Coleman might’ve played the best game of his short career. Smith was 3-of-7 for 26 yards when targeting the rookie, who had a pass breakup and a defensive holding penalty. The breakup was impressive, as Chris Conley broke under Albert Wilson’s pick on Coleman, who fought through the block for the diving PBU against Logan Ryan’s coverage assignment. Coleman was beaten for one third-down conversion on two attempts.

15. Here’s how Smith fared while targeting everyone else: Malcolm Butler (8-of-11, 56 yards, PBU, two third-down conversions), Ryan (7-of-8, 92 yards, TD, defensive pass interference, three third-down conversions, one fourth-down conversion), Devin McCourty (1-of-2, 10 yards, pass breakup on third down), Dont’a Hightower (1-of-2, 6 yards), Jamie Collins (0-of-2, including an end-zone incompletion to Kelce), Rob Ninkovich (3-of-3, 15 yards, one third-down conversion), Darius Fleming (1-of-1, 8 yards), Duron Harmon (0-of-1, fourth-down pass breakup) and Jordan Richards (0-of-1). Smith was 1-of-3 for 9 yards when throwing the ball out of bounds or to a soft zone.

16. It’s too easy to criticize Harmon for trying to intercept that fourth-down pass with 7:28 remaining in the fourth quarter because it would have cost the Patriots 29 yards of field position if it wasn’t overturned, but here’s some defense for Harmon. There was a receiver in the area, plus another who had been knocked down unbeknownst to Harmon. So if Harmon caught the ball, he ensured no one else would. Yeah, trying to swat the ball to the turf out of bounds would’ve been the play, but that’s not a natural reaction in the heat of the moment when things are happening so fast. Maybe something wacky happens — the Patriots’ recent playoff history is proof that these things do happen — and Harmon deflects the ball awkwardly into the field of play. That’s a low-percentage possibility, but Harmon shouldn’t be criticized for going for the sure thing and keeping the ball in his grasp.

Pressure points

17. Here are the Herald’s pressure stats: Chandler Jones (sack, forced fumble, QB hit, pressure), Ninkovich (QB hit, five pressures, run stuff), Jonathan Freeny (two pressures), Ryan (pressure, run stuff), Akiem Hicks (pressure), Collins (pressure), Alan Branch (pressure, run stuff), Jabaal Sheard (pressure, run stuff, drew an illegal hands penalty), Hightower (fumble recovery, two QB hits), Sealver Siliga (drew a holding penalty), Malcom Brown (two run stuffs).

18. Ninkovich breezed through Kelce to stop Smith for a 3-yard loss in the first quarter.

19. There were some breakdowns. Smith scrambled for 15 yards on third-and-13 in the first quarter when Hicks was walled inside and Jones got too deep on the edge, and Collins couldn’t make the play in pursuit. Smith also executed a triple option for a third-down conversion when Collins bit on the fake hand-off inside to Knile Davis. Hightower stayed home on the edge and took Smith, but Collins couldn’t get back in time to stop Charcandrick West’s 6-yard gain on the pitch. West’s 1-yard touchdown in the fourth quarter happened so easily because Freeny, who was responsible for the pitch man, was chopped in pursuit.

This has been debunked. Gilbert even asked why he would play special teams, and refuse to go on the field on defense.

The articles debunking this are in the original thread on the subject.

Stats are for losers.

(Seriously though, that information is incredible. Thanks for posting it.)

I didn't read all of that, but I can tell you the average time for a qb to release the ball in the NFL is between 1.8 seconds and 2.1 seconds.

I can also tell you that New England gave their qb a better pocket than KC did w/Smith. It was not close. I am not talking about how long it took to throw, because Smith often bought time. I am talking about instant pressure or a clean pocket.

I will stand by my claim that it has been extremely apparent that the winning teams in the playoffs have received superior play from their offensive and defensive front sevens.

I am finding it hard to believe that others haven't made the same observation. It's been extremely obvious.

I suggest that you try turning your TV on before watching the games from now on.



OH now I see part of the problem. Offensive lineman play IN FRONT of the QB, not across the line facing him. Man turning that TV on is really going to help you. psstt you can't name a single big fat guy on our offensive line.



Who now I don't want to sound cruel here bro but maybe you should also turn your brain on before typing too. It's very clear to see that you know nothing about Joe at all

Yep...not dominant at all...

It hasn't been debunked. He denies it because he knows it looks bad and the guy that can say he is lying was just fired. At least he admits he missed a ton of meetings because he's a "hard sleeper" which translates from Gilbert speak to "I party hard every night whether I have practice the next day or not."

isn't that something. neer heard one thing about that all year. ad still wouldn't have heard anything but for gilbert telling about it himself.

This is wrong. Prior to this year, Peyton Manning had the fastest average release time in NFL history at 2.24 seconds.

And the QB's hold on to the ball longer to extend plays.

While the QB's on our team are consistently criticized for holding the ball too long with these two studs in the trenches.

Cam, Carson, Tom and Manning all hold the ball longer to extend the play. McCown held the ball for too long because he didn't see his WR's open. Big difference.

The whole problem with all that you just wrote is that we don't have a Tom Brady who has been on the same team with the same head coach for 16 years and who knows that offense so well that he can take average players, even in the skill positions, and kick your ass.

Nosir, we don't have Tom Brady and are not likely to get anyone like him in our lifetimes. That being said, we need a dominating LT to keep our ball-holding, indecisive QB from getting killed.

Yep, yet all our QB's have been getting killed for years. We manage to get to the third string QB every year.

I've been hearing that the QB play was pretty good this year and the oline was fine. So we should be all set for 2016 for the oline, no needs there.

Or we can force JT out by drafting Tunsil this year

What?

All I am saying is teams can negate Thomas by avoiding the match-up. If he can stop anybody, let him stop a guy who can be stopped by almost anyone.

Re-read what tab said. Understanding that is crucial to your plan.

I would need to see something saying that the average QB releases the ball in 1.8 to 2.1 seconds in order to believe it. Maybe some of the very best QBs do in one game or another, but I rarely see a QB release the ball that quickly.

Do you have something that backs up that statement, because that's not what my eyes tell me.

I went looking, and this is an article I found, regarding, ironically, Tom Brady. It is from earlier in the season, but the point remains anyway.

Tom Brady is NFL's quickest draw and it's paying off for the 3-0 Patriots - CBSSports.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-foot...he-3-0-patriots


Through three weeks of the 2015 season, the Patriots have taken the quick game to another level. According to data tracking done by Pro Football Focus, Brady has gotten the ball out in an average of 2.09 seconds over the course of his 133 passes this season, the fastest time since PFF began recording the stat back in 2011. Before 2015, the quickest anyone had averaged before throwing the football was Peyton Manning's 2.24 seconds last season.

I just don't see a lot of QBs throwing the ball within 2 seconds of the snap very often.

Mehta: Brady pulls fast one on defenses with quick release - NY Daily News
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footba...ticle-1.2505526

Brady, frankly, should have been placed on injured reserve months ago, but he managed to mask deficiencies of his injury-ravaged offensive line with a maddening-quick release that has proved annoying to the opposition. Brady averaged just 2.34 seconds to throw the ball — from snap to release — this season, according to Pro Football Focus. That time dipped to 2.29 seconds in the Patriots’ 13 wins, including 2.19 against the Chiefs last week.

Look..............as usual, you are turning the argument around to suit your "debate."

I know that Brady has a fast release. Everyone knows that.

I know that not all pass plays occur w/in the time frame I listed.

I think you guys are missing what is important. Rasta said that we don't need a good OL and that the difference in the playoff games was the QB.

I countered w/this: The biggest difference I have witnessed in the playoff games is the performances of the OL and DL.

I STILL can't believe that people have not recognized that.

I posted the 1.8 to 2.1 seconds as a guide. I KNOW that this is not the average. Would you like to know why it isn't the average? It's because there are times when the receivers aren't open and a qb has to go to this second or third look. And here is an even more important reason-------often times there is quick pressure and the qb has "buy time" in the pocket to extend the play. This significantly increases the average of how long the qb "held" the ball.

For example:

Brady did get rid of the ball quick against KC, but bring up some videos and/or even watch some highlights w/in the next two games on the NFL shows. They'll show Brady throwing the ball. Observe how clean the pocket is. Observe that it is the perfect U-shape that all QBs desire. It's about having a clean pocket so you can survey the field, make your read[s], and deliver the ball w/out a guy in your face.

Next, find some footage of Alex Smith dropping back. Observe the immediate pressure. Observe him using his athletic ability to buy time by scrambling around and then pretty much having to throw the ball away right as he was getting crunched by a defender.

So, if you simply go by stats [as some people are want to do] w/out really watching the game, you can make a great argument that you don't need a good OL if you have a QB who gets rid of the ball quickly, because there is no doubt that Brady got rid of it quicker.

On the other hand, if you really watch the games, you will observe that it's really hard to release the ball quickly when you get instantaneous pressure in your face and it sure helps you deliver the ball quickly when the pocket is unbelievably clean.

Stats are a nice tool, but they are NOT the end-all. Watching the games is also important when trying to make definitive statements.

The OL is important. Very important. As is the DL. How many times have us Brown's fans seen opposing QBs get way too long i the pocket and make a late completion on 3rd down? I encourage all of you to watch Sunday's games and pay attention to just how fast the opposing defenses disrupt the QBs ability to throw the ball on time and just how many times each OL gives their QB a clean pocket. And then, evaluate the success--or lack thereof--of each team.

One more thing.............I almost wish that the Browns would lose Joe, Mack, and Schwartzie. Only then would some of our expert posters realize the degree of importance of the OL and how that affects a QB.

Time out. It isn't my plan. I am just saying a team doesn't have to match their best on our best.

No....I didn't take it as an attack. Plus, I am not as sensitive as some. I don't really care.

As I said in my above post, this isn't my plan. Rast I think it was, was the one who brought it up and got hammered every which way. I am simply saying his point isn't without merit.

We got some snow too....maybe 1/32", and only on the grass and in the woods....lol. Pretty cold though, may get up to 32 this afternoon. That's ok....calling for 52 on Monday...back to normal. Cool temps will make watching the games tomorrow more enjoyable.

Glad you don't feel attacked, but it is without merit. Actually try that on the football field and the OC will eat your lunch.

The thing about false football statements like that is that they get repeated over and over again and pretty soon half the board thinks they are fact.

Next thing everyone will be calling to trade Thomas for some kicking tees and drafting his replacement in the 5th round because LT's are worthless now and are blocking everyone's worst player.