Part of the reason is we've been picking a lot of OL. All those resources
btw...for a smart guy that has to be the most ridiculous thing you ever said.
It's ridiculous to say that part of the reason we lack impact players at positions other than OL is that we've been spending high picks on OL? Hmm. I'm not sure how this is possibly true. For example, would we be better off at WR had we picked Allen Robinson or Jarvis Landry or Jordan Matthews instead of Bitonio?
You have a set of resources. If you spend it in one place, you can't spend it in another place. How is that a ridiculous thing to say?
Nobody is ever going to say "I want an average player at this position instead of a good one" or "I want a bad player at this position instead of an average one." It's a matter of priorities and how you address them. "How much can I improve my team by using the resources I have?"
Evaluation is easier so you spend less time in misses than you would with the other positions. Look at us counting Gordon...9 Impact investments and we never hit on a one!
This is not a position-specific issue. This is a Browns' issue. That the Browns have picked poorly does not mean OL is a safer pick. We went through this maybe last year when you trumped up this trope that OL is the safe, smart pick. I showed you that over the last seven years or so 1st round OL actually bust at a higher rate than wide receiver, which IIRC was the position you mentioned as the high bust rate flash pick.
Look at Tennessee, for example. They are picking first in the draft. They spent the #10 overall pick in 2013 and #11 overall pick in 2014 on OL, and people STILL say their biggest need is on the offensive line.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog I am not sure what point you are trying to make?
I'm not sure about how what point I was going to make affects your answer to the question, but since you asked...
The question you asked appeared as an attempt to pigeon-hole me into a discussion that was very limited and fueled by another attempt to win a debate. However, rather than just jumping in and accusing you of such a thing, I wanted to give you a chance to clarify. I really don't like when posters ask questions designed to trick other posters and back them into a corner on a detail while ignoring the big picture.
My comments about the playoff games being decided in the trenches began before Rasta's post. It's been very evident and I find it hard to believe you haven't noticed it.
Hmmmm......are you saying that the play up front didn't play a huge role in deciding yesterday's games? If so, we might as will quit discussing this. If not........I'll try and clarify my opinion. I am NOT trying to win a damn debate. I am expressing my opinion and I think things are way more complicated than just getting a QB who gets rid of the ball quickly and a stud WR while ignoring the OL.
A couple of more points that I should clarify:
--I am all for getting a great QB. I just don't see one in this draft.
--I think QB is more important than any other position.
--I want us go get a quality WR or 3.
--I do NOT want us to draft an o-lineman w/in the first 3 rounds.
--I DO want us to keep the o-linemen that we have.
--I think Denver's injuries on the OL have been the single biggest reason for the team's ineptness on offense.
--I think their defense is dominant. I think they proved that great pass rushers and a good scheme can cause chaos for any qb and any offense. Heck, they humbled the guy who is perhaps the greatest QB of all-time. They did so despite losing a few players to injury, including two starting safeties.
--Did you happen to notice the clean pocket Brady had the week before? Did you happen to notice Cam's clean pocket yesterday? Do you think he makes all the throws he did if he was under the pressure that Brady--and even Manning---were under?
--I spoke of this in the Joe T thread, but I am not sure anyone even considered it. I said that qbs wanna get rid of the ball in 1.8 to 2.1 seconds. A couple of guys posted stats how that wasn't true. But, they aren't considering plays where there is instant pressure and the QB is FORCED to scramble around and buy time. Do you remember the play yesterday where Brady did that funny-looking hop as he moved to his left and then sailed the ball over Gronk's head? He was pressured before 2 seconds and had to escape. So, he probably holds the ball for over 4 seconds. Him holding it for 4+ seconds is a factual stat, but it's misleading because he had to buy time due to being pressured instantly. So, stat guys parade out stats that say guys don't throw it that quick , but man, the numbers are skewed.
--Furthermore, throwing the ball from a clean pocket is so much easier than throwing while under pressure. The hits accumulate. They mess w/your mind. It's hard to step-into throws. It's hard to make a really accurate read when you got some monster in your face. Pressure causes bad reads, inaccurate throws, and it challenges a man's heart.
We can argue for the rest of our lives on this. I do feel that QB is the most important position on the field, but damn man, protecting your qb on offense and pressuring the qb on defense typically is the difference between who wins and who loses, and nowhere is that more evident than in the playoffs.
Yeah, I was kinda confused when I first saw your question because I know you know the game. Maybe I just haven't communicated my intent as well as I should have earlier????
To your edit: Yeah, I could certainly be wrong about that. It's just my opinion. Not sure if I stated it as an opinion or a fact, but really..........I didn't mean to state it as a fact.
While this is an odd discussion, I believe part of the answer rests with a combination of answers.
We've had zero continuity in any phase of our FO. Overall we've had very poor talent evaluators. I believe this is why we've invested so highly in our OL.
Do I believe an OL can be built with a much lesser investments than we have made in that unit? Yes I do. Unfortunately we haven't had the right people in the FO to make that a reality here.
Believe me, when Jordon Matthews fell to us in the second round, I really wanted him to be our pick. There are times when the talent is so good and the depth of talent at a position is so strong, that you just can't afford to pass on the player. I felt strongly that was the case with Matthews.
I don't disagree with your stance on what is possible regarding building an OL. However, I believe the circumstances here have dictated we could not have done it. I believe the Thomas pick was a must have. Outside of that, I believe you can look across the league and see that a very good OL can be built with much less investment given the proper circumstances.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
That the Browns have picked poorly does not mean OL is a safer pick.
You are kidding me??? Who stole Clevesteve's computer...can't believe this is coming from you.
I see OL is only a safer pick for the Browns?
We have spent 9 Impact picks on WR...NINE! We have spent four (not counting last year) All Four start for us. Since day one and 2 have spent time as Pro Bowlers.
But we invest too much in a 5 position UNIT. 46% of the OFFENSE. A position that gives the opportunity to succeed to the 6 other positions on the O. WASTED?
We would have had a better team if we didn't take JF in 07, Mack in 09 Schwartz in 2012, Bitonio in 2014. Not like its every year. But each one has earned its keep.
And the 9 WR we took? their contributions? One Probowl season in 07 and 2013.
We can't go by the facts...lol
Then you pull the instead of this OL we could have had this. I can play that game with anything you come up with.
Fact is the ignoring of the OL and DL (D front 7) our first 5 years or so put this Team back in arrears.
And the fastest thing to prominence would have been to build the Defense.
Of course you have to stay in a defense to become great.
Actually you didn't show me anything....you picked parameters that were convenient to you and make it like you got it.
Only cause I don't remember it....I know about heck time freaking flies 07 08 09 I showed how by far OT was the safest pick in the first round. I think the success rate was like 76%...WRs were under 50%. Now you wish to combine them? Like its fair doing that with Franchise TAG...
No clue also what you consider a success.
or a Bust.
Do you count injuries as a void to the variable?
I trumped up this trope...btw save this simple person some time and let me know what "Trope" means. You showed me...well I pretty set in my opinion so not quite sure what you "THINK" you showed me.
I've seen football all over and there are exceptions.
How about this. How many 1st and 2nd round WR picks came out of the draft the last 7 years. How bout Left Tackles? Would the fact be you can always get an Impact WR but not a LT? But we messed up by utilizing an impact pick on JT, Mack, Shwartz and Bitonio. Cause if we took WRs instead we would be better off.
You really think this.
Take your position on the draft for like since 99 the era of the Browns existence.
I know that we throw a lot now so that WR have statistical success. I understand in the red zone the rules have made scoring easier for WRs. I get that. But evidently you hold some resentment cause you got this showing me as some sort of trophy case of yours. Guess what the only thing that has changed is the plethra of WRs in college now. So there are more opportunities to get good WRs....except Cleveland so we better use a #2 pick on one.
Well maybe Browns issue you are right we have sucked at WR so much in picking them we got to pick them over and over again...then what. When our QB doesn't have 2 seconds to throw the ball.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Anyone other than me remember when Donte Whitner was essentially begging the front office to sign Tedd Guinn Jr?
How freaking stupid does Ray Farmer look right now?
Not? Previous to this year, Ginn has been held to 0 touchdowns in 3 of the last 4 seasons. If Ginn scores a TD during the super bowl, he'll have more TD's this season than his entire career before it. And he's still nowhere near 1000 yards on the season (An achievement he's never been near).
No one expected Ginn to be this good, not even the Panthers. His success is probably due to Cam and wouldn't have been recreated here.
Anyone other than me remember when Donte Whitner was essentially begging the front office to sign Tedd Guinn Jr?
How freaking stupid does Ray Farmer look right now?
Not? Previous to this year, Ginn has been held to 0 touchdowns in 3 of the last 4 seasons. If Ginn scores a TD during the super bowl, he'll have more TD's this season than his entire career before it. And he's still nowhere near 1000 yards on the season (An achievement he's never been near).
No one expected Ginn to be this good, not even the Panthers. His success is probably due to Cam and wouldn't have been recreated here.
Yeah I don't know about that, he worked Patrick Peterson yesterday, with routes, not just Cam. At the time we had Benjamin coming off an ACL, with zero return man options. He would have come cheap and been OUR unexpected surprise.
This was my first thought from the Oline discussion..
We have a really good OL, the Chargers were on like their 3rd string OL.
We have Josh McCown and Travis Benjamin, the Chargers have Phillip Rivers and Keenan Allen.
The Chargers won.
yes, i'm thankful for our great o line.
but they haven't helped us win any games.
we need playmakers.
Last edited by Swish; 01/25/1604:30 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Would anyone else be concerned if Cam Newton were Browns QB, and taking chances with his body like he does?
The was a play in the NFL Championship, that was on all of the highlight shows, where Newton was running towards the end zone, and instead of running behind his blocker, he jumped/flipped inside of his blocker, flew through the air, got hit in mid air, and came down on the back of his head/shoulders.
I know these guys all want to make ESPN, but man, that was completely unnecessary, and could have resulted in an injury.
This is the play I am talking about. He has #67 in position, and blocking the defender to the inside. Newton could have walked in behind him, by cutting to the outside. Instead he jumped inside, into the air, over top of his blocker, and took a big chance with his body.
I realize that these guys want to be superstars, and want to make the spectacular plays that make everyone ooh and ah ..... but you have to be smart with your body.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
j/c.. 6. WOW timing is everything. 500+ consecutive Extra points made by Pats Kicker...what a time to miss one and as usual it determined the game. Years worth of extra points made...no real reason for that wide right.
I don't know if it makes a difference because like everything else I know nothing, but I thought the holder had the ball leaning pretty far to the right. In my mind that would send it off that direction.
So would you agree that a team with an average OL and a great defense is going to be better than a team with a great OL and an average defense?
*edit* for a more fair comparison, would you rather have a team with an average OL and great front 7 or a great OL and average front 7?
Didn't read the whole thing so not really sure where we are in this conversation so forgive me if this isn't really addressing your point but...
In a vacuum, I'd rather have the great defensive front 7. Now with that said, a great QB can make an average OL look great.. just like a dominant pass rush can make an average secondary look great. If you have a QB as cerebral of Manning or Brady, they have shown they can do wonders with mediocre blocking... or a guy like Cam who is just a physical freak in size and speed can also compensate for an average OL..
Now as it relates to the Browns.. we drafted Shelton (DT) in the 1st round, Nate Orchard (DE) in the 2nd round in 2015... Christian Kirksey (LB) in the 3rd round in 2014.. Mingo (DE/OLB) in the 1st round in 2013... Hughes (DT) in the 3rd round in 2012... Phil Taylor (DT) in the 1st round, Jabaal Sheard (DE) in the 2nd round in 2011.... That's a whole lot of resources poured in to the front 7 of our defense with almost no return.. heck the best guy on that list we let walk because he actually wanted to get paid... It's not like we have ignored the defensive front 7 in favor of the OL.. we've just had more success with the OL we've drafted.
You don't need to ask me about the Offensive and defensive line as anybody with 2 eyes and 98 percent of those with one eye already know. I Think most games are won and lost in the trenches.
Evaluation is easier so you spend less time in misses than you would with the other positions. Look at us counting Gordon...9 Impact investments and we never hit on a one!
This is not a position-specific issue. This is a Browns' issue. That the Browns have picked poorly does not mean OL is a safer pick. We went through this maybe last year when you trumped up this trope that OL is the safe, smart pick. I showed you that over the last seven years or so 1st round OL actually bust at a higher rate than wide receiver, which IIRC was the position you mentioned as the high bust rate flash pick.
Look at Tennessee, for example. They are picking first in the draft. They spent the #10 overall pick in 2013 and #11 overall pick in 2014 on OL, and people STILL say their biggest need is on the offensive line.
When you really get down to it, Browns simply must pick the best player on their board. If that is OL, take him...pure and simple.
I don't see a QB or WR in this draft worthy a #2 pick. I see a DL and OL guy.
How bout Left Tackles? Would the fact be you can always get an Impact WR but not a LT? But we messed up by utilizing an impact pick on JT, Mack, Shwartz and Bitonio. Cause if we took WRs instead we would be better off.
You really think this.
Nope. I don't think this for ALL of the picks. You were saying our OL is good we just need everything else. I am saying part of the reason we need everything else is because we've invested so much on the OL.
Originally Posted By: tab
Only cause I don't remember it....I know about heck time freaking flies 07 08 09 I showed how by far OT was the safest pick in the first round. I think the success rate was like 76%...WRs were under 50%. Now you wish to combine them? Like its fair doing that with Franchise TAG...
No clue also what you consider a success.
or a Bust.
Do you count injuries as a void to the variable?
I trumped up this trope...btw save this simple person some time and let me know what "Trope" means. You showed me...well I pretty set in my opinion so not quite sure what you "THINK" you showed me.
I've seen football all over and there are exceptions.
How about this. How many 1st and 2nd round WR picks came out of the draft the last 7 years.
So, if you looked it up in 2005, 2006... I could see thinking that OL is far safer than WR in the first round. If you look at recent years, though, you will see that trend reversed. I couldn't find the previous post I made on this... I don't know if it died in the fire or was put in an unarchived thread, but I re-did it since I mentioned it.
I skipped the 2015 draft, because a couple of the key guys were injured all year and it's not really fair to call OL a bust after one season, so let's look at the previous 10 drafts.
red = bust, white = not bust (I think I was pretty generous for the OL guys.)
Year Pick Pos Name 2014 2 OL Greg Robinson 2014 4 WR Sammy Watkins 2014 6 OL Jake Matthews 2014 7 WR Mike Evans 2014 11 OL Taylor Lewan 2014 12 WR Odell Beckham, Jr. 2014 16 OL Zack Martin 2014 19 OL Ja'Wuan James 2014 20 WR Brandin Cooks
2013 1 OL Eric Fisher 2013 2 OL Luke Joeckel 2013 4 OL Lane Johnson 2013 7 OL Jon Cooper 2013 8 WR Tavon Austin 2013 10 OL Chance Warmack 2013 11 OL DJ Fluker 2013 19 OL Justin Pugh 2013 20 OL Kyle Long 2013 27 WR Deandre Hopkins 2013 29 WR Cordarrelle Patterson 2013 31 OL Travis Frederick
2012 4 OL Matt Kalil 2012 5 WR Justin Blackmon* -- not a bust by talent, but by crazy 2012 13 WR Michael Floyd 2012 20 WR Kendall Wright 2012 23 OL Riley Reiff 2012 24 OL David DeCastro 2012 27 OL Kevin Zeitler 2012 30 WR AJ Jenkins
2011 4 WR AJ Green 2011 6 WR Julio Jones 2011 9 OL Tyron Smith 2011 15 OL Mike Pouncey 2011 17 OL Nate Solder 2011 22 OL Anthony Costanzo 2011 23 OL Danny Watkins 2011 26 WR Jon Baldwin 2011 29 OL Gabe Carimi 2011 32 OL Derrick Sherrod
2010 4 OL Trent Williams 2010 6 OL Russell Okung 2010 11 OL Anthony Davis 2010 17 OL Mike Iupati 2010 18 OL Maurkice Pouncey 2010 22 WR Demaryius Thomas 2010 23 OL Brian Bulaga 2010 24 WR Dez Bryant
2009 2 OL Jason Smith 2009 6 OL Andre Smith 2009 7 WR Darius Heyward-Bey 2009 8 OL Eugene Monroe 2009 10 WR Michael Crabtree 2009 19 WR Jeremy Maclin 2009 21 OL Alex Mack 2009 22 WR Percy Harvin 2009 23 OL Michael Oher 2009 28 OL Eric Wood 2009 29 WR Hakeem Nicks 2009 30 WR Kenny Britt
2008 1 OL Jake Long 2008 12 OL Ryan Clady 2008 14 OL Chris Williams 2008 15 OL Branden Albert 2008 17 OL Gosder Cherilus 2008 19 OL Jeff Otah 2008 21 OL Sam Baker 2008 26 OL Duane Browne
2007 2 WR Calvin Johnson 2007 3 OL Joe Thomas 2007 5 OL Levi Brown 2007 9 WR Ted Ginn, Jr. 2007 23 WR Dwayne Bowe 2007 27 WR Robert Meachem 2007 28 OL Joe Staley 2007 29 OL Ben Grubbs 2007 30 WR Craig Davis 2007 32 WR Anthony Gonzales
2006 4 OL D'Brickashaw Ferguson 2006 23 OL Davin Joseph 2006 25 WR Santonio Holmes 2006 26 OL Nick Mangold
2005 3 WR Braylon Edwards 2005 7 WR Troy Williamson 2005 10 WR Mike Williams 2005 13 OL Jammal Brown 2005 19 OL Alex Barron 2005 21 WR Matt Jones 2005 22 WR Mark Clayton 2005 26 OL Chris Spencer 2005 27 WR Roddy White 2005 32 OL Logan Mankins
One thing that stands out to me is how bad the 2005 draft was for wideouts. That draft is skewed heavily in favor of OL. Since that draft, though, the scales have tipped widely in the favor of wideouts selected in the first round.
Total OL Bust Rate (2005 - 2014): 19 / 55 -- 34.55% Total WR Bust Rate (2005 - 2014): 11 / 34 -- 32.35%
So if you look at those ten years, there's almost no difference, with a statistically insignificant edge to WRs. However, if you start from 2006 instead of 2005:
Total OL Bust Rate (2006 - 2014): 18 / 52 -- 34.60% Total WR Bust Rate (2006 - 2014): 7 / 29 -- 24.14%
This shows a MUCH higher bust rate for OL than for WRs.
I can totally see how the 2005 draft would give a bad impression for wideouts in the draft. And for a couple years there (2009, 2010) there were almost no busts at either position group. But the recent success rate of teams "going safe" with an OL has been bad. Maybe it has something to do with the illegal contact rule emphasis of 2004, with teams going to pass-heavy offenses leading to OL being on the defensive a higher portion of their snaps. Maybe it has to do with the mass implementation of college spread offenses, emphasizing different skillsets for the OL and simpler blocking concepts. Maybe it is just harder to evaluate OL now since what they are doing in college is different. Maybe it is just easier to be a wide receiver in today's NFL if you are physically gifted. But what may have been true ten years ago about OL picks being safe and WR picks being risky seems to have reversed. Of course it's still dependent on the player, but overall it looks like the evaluations of the WRs is better than those of the OL.
Props to Ted Ginn...he made an amazing turn around of his career. I think it was Miami who took him pretty high way back when. Took him a while to be an impact player. Wonder what changed for him?
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
So much? or it appears so much cause they all STUCK and are good. As opposed to the 9 impact picks we made at WR where Gordon is the only hope of success.
We made 4 top 50 picks since 07...NONE prior. Sorry that is not correct we took Faine and then traded him with regime change before he finally became good.
But for a 2 position Unit that touches the ball 6-7 times a game. 96-112 catches a season which would be top success. We invested 9 impact players with the same people making the OL evaluations.
Your suggestion that our investment cost us opportunities for a good Offense. Unless you show me a stud QB that we erred. but to back track and show me the successful WR that could have been gotten with that crystal ball of who was successful.
What you are suggesting is not football and I'll tell you why. Now that most colleges are passing the ball like never before there is a better class of athletes choosing college football over other sports and we get 10+ every year impact WR that are first two rounds.
The opportunity is not lost because we chose OL. Its not a rare position that you have to take early. Just because it seems like ONLY THE BROWNS suck at evaluating WRs mean you can't find them unless its early. Just is not the case.
Hopefully I get a chance to see your stats. All I know is I rely on my knowledge of football and how you MUST build a team. And I know you won't trust me. But investing in WR is not the case. You need WRs for sure. But the Have to have.
Btw...look at the two SB teams. Are they there because of their WRs?
The teams that win the LOS battle more often than not win the games. That just is football. Now hilight film and fantasy football has really made the position of WR over rated.
This is a very team sport...you have to build the entire team. The Parity breakers are. QB, LT, Edge Rushers, Cover Corners. Those are the rare positions to get an edge on Parity.
ALL positions are important to building a team but bang for your buck...best to build LOS on out.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Props to Ted Ginn...he made an amazing turn around of his career. I think it was Miami who took him pretty high way back when. Took him a while to be an impact player. Wonder what changed for him?
I am no expert, but I think it has to do with a team that has a vertical game. I think he is at his best when he just goes. Cam can get him the ball. He still has the wheels. I was impressed when he ran down that Cardinal who got the pick. Picked it at the 10, Ginn was in the end zone. Caught him from behind.
Miami took him way too early and that "bust" stigma is hard to break. Needed people to forget where he was taken.
I'm not understanding why you are continuing this strawman argument.
I never said it is not important to have quality players on the OL, and I CERTAINLY never said you shouldn't build up your defensive players.
I didn't say we don't have a good offense because we made (5 top 40 picks actually, not 4 top 50: Thomas, Bitonio, Mack, Erving, and Schwartz) so many picks on the OL. You said that we have a good OL now we need to build everything else up.
As for your four positions that you list as the "parity breakers," I wonder why you left out WR from that list? It's usually listed along with those positions as the five most important.
Anyway, I have only tried to make three points on here, and you are continuing to put words in my mouth.
1. You can only improve your team's performance so much by improving your offensive line. There comes a point where continuing to try to improve your OL will not bring significant benefit to your team. We had snaps in this season (preseason?) were ALL 5 OL were top 40 picks made by this team. Now we are going to potentially let a guy walk so we can yet again spend a high pick (#32) on a RT? Talk about treading water. Except we're treading water 6 feet below the surface.
2. Offensive line is not the "safe" pick that so many claim it to be. The bust rate of OL has gotten to be pretty high.
3. Your comment that "we have a good line but we need these other things": I clearly stated that PART of the reason was that so much of our resources were committed to OL. The other part was we have drafted poorly. Your point that "yeah but our OL picks have been the ones that have stuck" is a fair one. But it doesn't change the fact that those picks have limited our pool of opportunities for improving at other positions.
Everybody sees what they believe, this season playoff games is just the proof of that.
I didn't see any OL win a game. I saw Denver D win the game, (Pats OL was good for the rest of the games, they were just outplayed)
I didn't see Denvers OL win the game, nor the Panthers.
Maybe, and just maybe Arizona OL lost the game, but I'm much more inclined to say it was the QB.
What I saw this playoffs was very well balanced teams,including special teams, with a focus on aggressive D's.
If I had to chose a trend this years is that bad Secondary teams were the worst, not bad/good OL.
Puzzles me when you watch outstanding D play, and people are talking about the importance of the trenches. But I guess I'm wrong, because we will be talking for ages how bad the Pats OC/OL coach was calling the OL plays, the same to Arizona...
Outstanding D game plans and execution, that's what we are talking about this playoffs.
Regarding the importance of skill players, well sure Tom Brady is missing them, and no way Arizona would go so far without Larry Fitz.
But like all, I just see what I want...
PS: I don't think anybody outside some selected Browns fans can justify how we passed on so many "bona fide" wide receivers.
Regarding the most important positions, its kind of easy, IMHO, to solve the problem.
No LT or CB can ever occupy 2 opponents, while a WR, Pass Rusher, and other positions can.
LT's and CB's are reaction position, so they cannot be by definitions strategic keys, but that doesn't mean we can play with bad LT or CBs, its just that the best LTs and CBs have limited impact. Well discounting the scoring/game changing CBs
I wonder why you left out WR from that list? It's usually listed along with those positions as the five most important.
Because I don't count fantasy football lists...lol
Look I know WR has become a sexy part of football. Oh and were these the same guys who were saying that the adage of Defense wins Championships is dead??? btw...actually we made 6 investment in OL as for not including Erving...I did it only after you said not including Erving.
the 6th was Faine.
Somehow I hit CleveSteve reply and it came up rastanplan...maybe it popped in there as I was hitting the reply???
continuing this Strawman argument...well you didn't say I was correct...lol
just answering your reply...thought we were having a discussion. Its ok. Look I've always been an OL nut.
AS for Parity...the addition of DION SANDERISM into football has made the position more important. Don't know if that is because of the value of Celebration dances?
WR is not in there cause there is nothing rare about WR, its the rarity that make them parity breaker. As stated almost every draft there is well over 10 prospects for WR in the first two rounds.
We have different definition of parity breaker.
Pats...they must suck cause of their none investment in WR. So does Steeers, So did the Giants SB teams.
Ravens....Seattle.
They can type in WR all they want where is the proof.
to me Parity breakers are RARE commodity items. WR is anything but rare.
Why I continue? I don't know maybe cause I think you are incorrect. It doesn't seem to stop you from posting onward right?
lol Its simply my opinion based on a lot of fact.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Saw an article that a Seahawks fan has started a petition to not allow Cam Newton into their stadium next year because he's cocky and arrogant and blahblahblah...
First response to the article was perfect.. "Seattle can't keep him out of the end zone, what makes them think they can keep him out of the stadium?"
I looked at my son right when it happened and said "wow, Cam just wussed out". How do you face your teammates in the locker room (and especially the film room) after that? Just awful, especially from the supposed team leader - dive on the freaking ball!
I looked at my son right when it happened and said "wow, Cam just wussed out". How do you face your teammates in the locker room (and especially the film room) after that? Just awful, especially from the supposed team leader - dive on the freaking ball!
Not to mention - from the guy that refers to himself as 'Superman'.
Last I checked, pigskin is not made of Kryptonite....
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Cam is, immature. Hopefully, PrimeTime is right and he will use his behavior in the presser as a learning opportunity as well as this clip. How embarrasing.
