DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Growing number of police chiefs, sheriffs join call to arms

Yes, I hear your concern about the 200 law abiding citizens you fear. You are saying you would rather tie their hands behind their backs than allow them to protect themselves as the orange haired nut comes it shooting.

Interesting.
That sounds like a form of aiding and abetting.

Perhaps only a fine example of Milk Toast Conservatism.

That's seriously what you got from that?

Real Americans? So now you are an authority on what makes for a real American?

Those who have taken the hard line approach and dug in their heals over issues like this, throughout history, have been proven to lose in this country.

Slavery
Women's suffrage
Abortion
Civil Rights
Interracial marriage
Gay marriage
Healthcare

and I'm sure I'm forgetting some... public opinion is swaying against the notion of unabridged gun ownership. Gun owners can either join the discussion or they can stomp their feet and scream second amendment and oppose everything that is put forward.. but if they do that. They will lose... maybe a little bit at a time or maybe a lot.

Doesn't really matter what I WANT to happen... just my cultural observation that things are going to change, gun owners can either have their input or they can have it forced on them... that's just the reality of it.

I believe that the problem we have is not a gun problem, but rather that this country has large areas of people living in poverty, and that we are a people who accept and love sin. People judge their success by the things they have. (and I freely admit that I have fallen into the trap of covetousness on many occasions myself) Combine the 2, and you have a truly dangerous combination.

We have this major societal problem, and I really see only 1 solution. We can never give people "enough" that they will give up their sins in pursuit of more. I see kids growing up without fathers, or any real male role model directly involved in their lives. I see sin running rampant, and I see society excusing their own sins as "normal", and people saying that people should be allowed to do whatever they want "as long as no one gets hurt". People make excuses for the actions of some people,and offer up tons of solutions other than returning to God, and following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Imagine if we lived by 2 simple laws .... Loving the Lord, our God, with all of our hearts, souls, and minds, and loving other people as we love ourselves. (which Jesus identified as the 2 most important Commandments, because all others spring forth from them) Imagine a world in which people thought, before they did anything, "Is this something that God would approve of?", and "Is this the way I would want others to treat me?" Many people want to ridicule Christianity, and point to scandals perpetrated by flawed people, but those people have not done as Jesus taught. Imagine a world that followed these 2 simple Commandments. It would be, literally, heaven on earth. However, and unfortunately, we love our sin more than we love God, or one another. That does not change, and so the problems it creates do not change. We change laws, pile on mandatory sentencing guidelines, herd convicted criminals into prisons, and are told at every step that we have to keep God out of it. We have the difference between poor and rich getting bigger and bigger, and we have the problem of people thinking that their success is life is how much stuff they have accumulated by the time they die. We have children having children, and people living in the cycle of poverty and hopelessness. We have people of one race mistrusting people of another race, just because they are different. (which, to me, is a real tragedy, given how far we have come in many ways in this regard)

The solutions we are allowed to pursue are everything except a return to God. We love our sins, and we excuse, and even encourage sin more and more as the years go by. We have decided to move about as far away from God as we possibly can.

I have made a point of reading my Bible every night.I try to do 3-4 chapters every night. It is amazing how the ancient Jews went through the same cycles of moving away from God, and violating His Laws ..... suffering the consequences, coming back to God, and enjoying the rewards this brought their way, only to have the next generation move away from God, and to worshiping other gods. It is a cycle that repeats over and over and over again.

One would think that we, as "modern and sophisticated people" would learn from what has happened before us. Unfortunately, we ignore the axion that says that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. The lessons are there for us to see, if we only will. Unfortunately, again, the only time we turn back to God is when a national tragedy hits, and we find comfort in the arms of God ...... but for many this lasts only until daily life returns to normal, and they again turn away from God. Parents wonder why their children live in an immoral fashion, but they never take their children to church, or teach them the Bible and its lessons.

I see no way that things improve appreciably until we change our hearts, and return to God. If we were to end poverty, and give everyone a home, car, and food on the table, a computer and super fast internet, does anyone truly believe that there would still not be a large segment of the population who would think "But we still don't have (things) that other people have"? Many people today have assistance for food, housing, transportation, child care, health care, money from the government for simply working at a job, and so many other things, and it still isn't enough. I could make an argument that there has never been a better time to be a poor person in America than today. It's still not enough, because the biggest problem is inside. America's biggest problem is a sin problem, and no law changes, sentencing guidelines, or anything else is going to change that. The change has t come from within. Unfortunately many find that idea to be offensive, and unacceptable for public consumption.

Perhaps the reality is that if you had it your way, EVERY law abiding citizen should be armed in that theatre. That's the problem.

If you actually believe that every "law abiding citizen" would know how to properly respond to such a situation, you are a very naïve person.

I have handled and shot guns all of my life since I was very young. I'm very proficient and calm when handling firearms. So are many people. Those people I would have no problem carrying a weapon. But you simply can't arm a room full of people and expect that to work.

Having the right to bear arms and having the where with all to do that in a responsible and reasonable manner are two different thing.

I agree.

I'm still waiting to see where I tried correcting your grammar. That post made no sense to me.

Adrenaline - that can make even the most well trained people (gun wise) get the yips. Well, adrenaline and fear.


Just read a news article this afternoon about a guy whose home was broken into, he was tied up, robbed, broke out of the tie up the bad guys did, grabbed a gun and went outside and shot them - at them - in his car as they were driving off. He's facing probable/possible charges for murder.

Why? Because at the time of him shooting, he wasn't in fear of his life as the bad guys were leaving, and they were outside of his home.

It was a few weeks ago in a pure football thread. lol

The ability to react properly in a threatening situation is simply something many people are not prepared for. And yes, adrenaline can cause situations that do not need to occur, occur to the detriment and even death that's unneeded.

It could do immeasurable harm to people on both sides of the conflict.

I wonder if the people wouldve been armed...would the guy who shot it up..would have picked that place knowing he was going to meet armed resistance



IDK Pit...got to take the good with the bad...I'd feel way more comfortable in a place where everyone is armed over a place that is a gun free zone.

And God knows Ive been around people who had/have no business being around firearms...but it is their right...and if they screw up they will pay the price for it.

It is what it is I guess.

My opinion is that neither extreme is good. As it is, I believe that most CCW carriers are comfortable carrying firearms. I believe most are adept at handling firearms. As such, I really have no problem with the current system at all.

I do believe that "gun free zones" are invitations for a whacko or terrorist.

Yet it seems 40's take is "arm them all". I don't believe that. I say let those who feel comfortable and confident carry anywhere they want. That's more than enough to be a deterrent yet doesn't arm people incapable of properly handling firearms.

CCW classes can teach someone to handle a gun, but in no way prepares a person for a live action situation.

Which is my fear... I think it's great that the classes are taught in proper care, maintenance, storage, etc. of a gun... but I don't care how many times you can plug the center mass of a paper target or shoot the can off the log from 30 feet.... In a crowded situation when somebody else has a gun and your adrenaline is running 1000 mph... it's a whole different ball game.

I guess my ccw class was different than yours? I wasn't taught anything about care or maintenance. Storage is pretty much common sense.

I was taught the law. And some different shooting techniques. But mainly, I was taught that my concealed carry license allows me to protect myself or my family, or in very few situations, others. Emphasis was put on "getting you out of danger". Emphasis was also placed on "you're not a cop". Get you and yours out of danger.

And those are all good things to learn in a classroom. The question becomes, do people that are not used to hunting or a lot of experience handling a weapon, capable of dealing with the very first time they are in a life changing situation with the adrenaline and fear flowing through their veins?

In many if not most situations, I believe no is the answer.

I could have made a much more extensive list and I was actually including other gun classes above and beyond just the CCW class, actually had the word "use" of the weapon in their too but somehow it got deleted during an edit...

And as Pit said, I don't care what you learn... unless you are doing simulations and live fire drills like the military, there is still no way to know how somebody is going to act if/when the situation finally arises. Heck the Police and the military do those training exercises, are in those situations a lot more, do NOT have their wife and kids standing behind them... and they STILL make mistakes.

Could be.

I know, when some drugged up guy was beating on my door at 4 a.m., I was ready to do what I needed to, IF he had busted in. I also knew what would happen to me if I shot when he was outside and simply banging on the door. Common sense, and the training I had (knowing the laws) worked out great.

I also know even cops that train constantly are prone to errant shots.

I know enough to KNOW what I'm shooting.

Being a hunter really doesn't come into play, other than knowing what you are shooting.

For ME, my ccw doesn't mean I get to be a hero. It simply gives me a tool to escape a bad situation.

I believe both of us are quite capable of carrying and handling firearms. It seems there are quite a few people on this board I would feel comfortable with carrying a firearm. I believe we are the "just in case" kind of people. We know the odds aren't high of needing a firearm for protection, but we also believe the odds are high enough not to take the chances of not being armed. (yes, a double negative, I know.) lol

We are not the type of people I'm talking about. There are a lot of people out there who are paranoid and scared as hell. They just know something is going to happen and are just waiting for it to happen. Their brain will simply not work the way that ours does in a time of conflict or panic.

And yes, I do believe hunting has something to do with it. I hunted quail and pheasant a lot. When those birds first come up, there's certainly an element of adrenaline and surprise that goes along with it. Soon you begin to have the ability to handle that. Your accuracy and the habit to handle that gun in a responsible manner is second nature to you.

I'm not for restricting any of our current laws, but I won't lie and say that the more guns that are out there, the more I believe there are more and more people carrying them that I wish weren't.

arch, I'm 100% sure you are a responsible gun owner.. as I'm sure most, if not all, of the people who post on here are..

And in your situation, a guy at the door, your family behind the door.. I have no problem with you holding that gun in case the situation goes south..

That is a much different situation than you sitting with your family at the movies, hearing 2 gun shots behind you, people start screaming and running, you pull your gun out and turn around and there are people diving for cover, running for the exits, and 20 people with guns drawn, trying to figure out who it was that fired the first shots.. then in the frenzy one guy shoots another guy... so is he the shooter or is he a good guy who identified and shot the shooter? You don't know..

that happens quite often.

somebody got shot by accident in the name of trying to stop a shooting or crime.

Really? 20 people started opening up on each other in an enclosed area? I'd like to see a link to that because I have never heard of a situation where multiple lawful concealed carry patrons suddenly started blasting everything that moved.

The instances of a citizen maintaining their cool in those types of situations vastly out numbers the incidents involving guys like you just described.

Did I say 20 people went Rambo? I did I say it happens often that somebody got popped by accident?

OOppsss...I thought you said Vambo.

Good god what is hat thing

Man I just wantr to comment on this...I dont think people realize just how little training people in noncombat mos's do with firearms training.

I see this alot..not you persay..just in general on boards I read and in general conversation with people.

I think people would be shocked at 1. just how bad of shot people in the military are..excluding combot mos's. 2. And just how little training is done with firearm training in the military.

Sorry man not picking on you...I read this as lot and it drives me nuts.

Yea he military is really cheap when it comes to ranges.

I agree man..

Well, I was kind of referring to those in the military who train for such things.. I assume mechanics and engineers and communications don't do a lot of live situation training with firearms...

I read your response of "that happens quite often" to DC's post about 20 people opening up as you were agreeing with him that 20 people opening up happens quite often.

I figured as much..I dont think youre dim in anyway...people really believe that military folks are proficient in firearm training and are somehow more qualified then Joe blow citizen....maybe I shouldve used jc.

Sorry Dc...I was watching Straight Outta Compton while posting and might have been a little off with what you meant...But USUALLY when someone references the military...vary rarely is it just job specific they think they are all out there training away...obviously not you but enough where I commented...know what I mean man.

i was agreeing with him that people get popped by accident.

i didn't mean to say that 20 people in an gun brawl happens often. my bad for that. but i am in agreement that 20 guys playing hero probably isn't gonna work in the real world.

Gotcha.

Sorry if my response was a bit quick on the trigger...

per se


And, yes... the average military person does very little shooting; especially if you are not Army or Marines.

As a sailor, I shot pistol in Boot Camp for nothing more than familiarization in April '89... .I never touched another firearm while in the service until summer of '93 while in the Gulf getting ready to do some MIOps (Maritime Interdiction - a.k.a. boarding vessels). That shooting was - literally - simply lining us up at the deck edge with 1911's and shotguns and we were told to try to hit the water, lol! Nearly 5 years Active Duty during the times we invaded Panama, did that Gulf War 1 thing, being on station for Somalia and also serving during the outset of that whole Bosnia-Herzegovina thing... and that was all the firearms time I ever had.

Thanks man...I was watching Straight Outta Compton with a surround sound system second to none...and havent been using spell check...hell now that I'm looking I even miss-spelled combat...

I did the Desert Shield Desert Storm thing...but was in 0311 MOS 2nd Marine Division a true grunt and not a POG and was very familiar with firearms/artillery...I had a leg up man..between my father being a gun nut and well...my personal choice of people to hang around in my youth I was already familiar with guns/rifles

I was a Boatswain's Mate on an LST (the USS Barnstable County) back in those days.... carried a bunch of FMF Jarheads from LeJeune and their AAV's all over the place.

Man my memory is bad right now but its very possible I was one of those Jarheads..man what a truly small world we live in.

I need to clarify my statement a bit..I had a stroke bout 2yrs ago and I cant remember a large portion of my life and its frustrating...One of my brothers from the Corp called me recently and I couldnt remember who the hell he was..I felt awful but he understood..we was very close..had to be he had my personal number and I dont just hand that out to anybody.

So that explains why you haven't yet paid off on the bet we made on the 2012 election, when I bet that Obama would win, and you bet that Romney would win.

Well, no harm done ..... just send me that $100K you lost in that bet, and we'll call it even.

Seriously, though, I have 2 friends (who I know off the boards) who have had strokes. One is GM, and he, fortunately, doesn't seem to have suffered mental or emotional trauma from his strokes. Another is my best friend from middle school till today. He used to be a graphic designer and commercial artist. He was incredibly talented, and some of his paintings were just magical. Then he had a stroke, and lost part of his sight in one eye, his hands don't have the fine motor control they once had, and he has not been the same mentally or emotionally since, He also suffers from some memory loss.

He went from his dream job, to working at Wal Mart, stocking shelves overnight. He did that until one night he walked into the middle of the store, took his box cutter, and opened up his wrists. Thank God his life was saved, and he has recovered from that incident. Fortunately, he has also recovered some of his emotional stability. It has not been easy though. He is not able to work anymore. I know that eats away at him. (and I understand that frustration perfectly)

Just going by your posts, it seems like you have maintained most of your stability, so Thank God for that.

Y-town...I have to use a cane to walk...sometimes a walker if its a cruddy day...but I can ride a bike pretty well. My speech is really bad and It takes what feels like forever to get the words out and is usually muddled up. I can write but I have to double check what I write..have a bad habit of writing what Im thinking instead of what I wanted to say.

If it wasnt for spell-check I wouldnt post it would look bad sometimes. I lost a bunch of memories..my sons talk about things when they was young and I just smile a nod my head while not remembering any of it.

I had a brain-stem stroke and I'm very fortunate to be able to do what I am now...ton of rehab. But my short term is bad and long term memory is worse. I love to shoot guns and my left hand/arm shakes pretty bad at times...I have alot more going on which I shared with a someone in pm on here...it sucks.

I was healthy as far as taking care of myself..physical fitness nut...so when I say you never know whats going to happen its the truth. Changed my life forever...and wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy.

As far as the Romney thing...do you have that in writing with my signature by chance

One other weird thing..my moods go all over the place...I moment happy laughing...the next split second I'm pissed off and have no idea why...I started back on a mood stabilizer med but man I hate taking it...it makes the brain fog even worse.

I also frequently have to use a cane. Ah well, God has His reasons ......

Absolutely I have it with your signature. Of course, you do remember that your signature used to be just an incomprehensible scribble back then, right?

On a serious note, the mood thing sounds like my buddy, even with medication sometimes. He had some really scary swings, and called me the one day to talk, and was ranting about how he was going to leave his wife. (which was hard to listen to, because I know that he loves her absolutely and completely, and has for the past 25+ years) He was looking for a place so he could move out, and it almost seemed like he was asking if he could come stay with me for a while. Eventually I said that I hoped that he wold not leave her, but if he did need a place to stay, for any reason, my door was always open to him.

He called me a few days later, and it was like it had never happened. He laughed about it, but that was it.

It is amazing, and scary, how little we know about the human brain.

i told you YTown, i know a guy that knows a guy, can get you a need spinal cord. cheap.

She wasn't hit with the stupid stick too many times, she still has a few hits to come.