DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum As the Cavs' World Turns

Yes, but with the injuries, we needed to go to our bench. I already know other teams cut down on rotation in the playoffs.

But the other squads didn't have two of there starters out, another playing with a crap shoulder, one throwing up from dehydration, and another playing max minutes, it probabaly would've been smart to find a way to give these guys a rest.

You cut the rotation down when you got healthy players, not when you go limping into the finals.

You might want to read Excel's response to your earlier post????

I did, and in my opinion, it's still not a valid excuse. We had the bodies to at least give guys like delly a bigger break.

Lebron has shown he can do max minutes. But the other guys at the very least needed a breather. We didn't get that.

Hornacek got a raw deal... they should fire the GM for some of the bonehead moves he's pulled.

Okay...........so who plays the point if you take Delly out?

I just looked-up the stats for Game 6.

Delly only played 25 min and 20 sec. JR and Shump both played more minutes than he did.

LeBron was the ONLY Cav who had more than 40 min. The Warriors had two guys w/more than 40 min.

The Cavs had seven guys who played more than 20 min. The Warriors had six guys who played more than 20 min.

Wanna rethink things or you stuck on trashing Blatt no matter what?

In Game 1 of the Chicago series, they started Mike Miller as an experiment to try and shuffle the roster to replace Kevin Love, and it was a disaster. I believe he was something like -20 in plus/minus in the 15 or so minutes that they did play him. And he was the best option of that Perkins-Harris-Haywood-Miller bench blanket. Even playing James Jones opened them up pretty bad defensively. We really didn't have a whole lot of options.

And the game that Delly really need the rest was Game 3. Who's going to spell him for 5-10 minutes? Joe Harris? We put Joe in there for that long, we probably lose that game.

j/c....

Cavs stars tackled accountability issue in players-only meeting

Brian Windhorst Zach Lowe

The Cleveland Cavaliers have been invigorated over the last week following game plan changes by new coach Tyronn Lue, but it hasn't been the only event that's positively affected the team.

Following a meeting called by general manager David Griffin to inform the team coach David Blatt had been fired, Cavs players held an extended and spirited players-only meeting, sources told ESPN.com. It turned into an airing of grievances for players including stars LeBron James, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving but eventually led to an agreement that has been a basis for the Cavs recent strong play.

"It was very healthy for the team," another source said. "It probably needed to happen weeks ago."

A central issue in the discussion, sources said, was the need for accountability within the team. One of the issues that was keeping the team from enjoying some of the successes of the season was the different set of rules for some players compared to others.

In what could turn out to be a key moment in their tenures together, James, Irving and Love came to an understanding that they needed to police each other on certain matters and use their influence within the team to set a standard for accountability, sources said. That was frequently a missing component over the last season and a half, sometimes creating friction.

Sources told ESPN.com's Dave McMenamin that James, Irving and Love led the conversation, owning up to personal faults and using the open forum to express what they expected out of their teammates.

"It's the type of conversation that only comes out when it's time for that conversation, if you know what I mean," a source said. The discussion got contentious at times, though sources said that it was expected.

James compared some of the Cavs situation to his time with the Miami Heat. Other players challenged James on his need to set a stronger example, including with his effort level when he becomes frustrated, sources said.

Veteran James Jones played a key role in the gathering, both in bringing the players together and encouraging discussion, sources told McMenamin. Jones, who players call by his nickname "Champ," carries significant respect in the locker room.

Griffin asked Jones to organize the meeting. Players were told they were being called together to report to the Cavs' practice facility on their off day for a team matter. After Griffin addressed the team for 15 minutes and told them Lue was being promoted to head coach the players stayed and discussed matters for around an hour. Lue did not address the team until the following morning at shootaround.

The Cavs lost their first game to the Chicago Bulls, scoring just 83 points. But the mood in the locker room after the disappointing loss was more upbeat than following a quality home win over the Los Angeles Clippers 48 hours earlier.

The team has won the following four games including a 14-point win over the San Antonio Spurs on Saturday. Lue's focus on more active offense has seen the Cavs average 115 points during the winning streak.

After promising more elbow touches for Love, the forward has averaged nearly six elbow touches per game since Lue took over, an increase of 50 percent per game from his previous average according to player tracking data on NBA.com. The new coach has also encouraged more aggressive play from Irving and altered rotations in an attempt to find space within games to feature each of the team's stars.

In both wins over the weekend James, Irving and Love each scored more than 20 points, the first two times it happened this season.

Article

TT had 40+ minute games in 1 and 3
and almost had 40 in game 2(39.23), 4(38:25), 5(39:49)


delly had 40+ minute games in 2 and 5
and almost 40 in game 3(38.31)

compared to the minutes that GS had, it's ridiculous.

so you can cherry pick your stats for game 6.

i'll go ahead and support my argument with the finals in it's entirety.

so not only the game stats, but there play on the court supports my argument that blatt didn't rest these guys enough.

you call it bashing, i call it constructive criticism. at this point i don't care what you call it because i honestly could care less about how you feel at this point.

you're track record for backing coaches is shotty anyway. you haven't been right on any of them. from blatt, to pettine, to mangini.

blatt is a good coach, he wasn't right for this team however. suck it up. it isn't gonna change with your constant whining.

blatt isn't coming back. pettine isn't coming back. mangini isn't coming back. and thank god.

now that i've laid out my arguments with facts and stats, i'm done with you.

this response to Ex:

i've already stated that being injured and down 2 starters sucked. there minutes were gonna increase, but regardless, he NEEDED to play somebody else when we had those slight leads. our guys needed breathers, and it didn't happen.

you're arguing the quality of the bench, or lack of quality.

thats fine, but if blatt would've been giving these guy meaningful minutes in the first place, they would've been ready for a decent amount of minutes come finals.

the chicago series i could care less about. we had the talent over them anyway.

oh, and BTW, you wanna know another reason Thib got fired? because he ran his players into the ground, and they got tired as well as injured.

So look, this is just my opinion, but just like Vers wants to puff his chest and cry that he isn't gonna sit there and let people do<insert whatever>

i'm not gonna sit here and let people claim i don't know BB, even though my opinion is based off factual data and the play on the court.

You do realize that Kyrie and Lover were hurt, right? Who should have played more? Miller? Marion?

Oh wait! The great Spencer Haywood. What, it wasn't Spencer? It was Brendan Haywood?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but my point is that if we had to insert Mike Miller or Brendan Haywood, then those "slight leads" would of become deficits instead and Blatt would of been taking criticism for playing geriatrics instead of for over-playing guys.

The Warriors could play 10 deep because they had guys like David Lee, Barbosa and Livingston coming off their the bench. We had the corpse of Shawn Marion and Canton Joe on ours. Giving guys rest doesn't do anything if they come back into the game down double digits (as evidenced by that Mike Miller vs Chicago game).

as i said before, if miller, marion were given meaningful minutes prior to the finals, maybe they would've been in game shape to help out.

either way, IMO, that falls partly on the coach.

we don't know if those two would've helped, but they weren't even given the opportunity

but here's what we do know: our players got gassed come game 4 and beyond.

i mean meaningful minutes not only in the finals, but the entire playoff run.

hell we swept 2 teams, you're telling me Blatt couldn't afford to let them get some playing time?

I don't think Keylani was injured for the playoff run, but her defense isn't much better than Mike Miller's, so it was probably best to leave her on the bench.

didn't i JUST say that we were down starters?

for a teacher, you can't read for damn.

For a stoner, you sure have a limited perspective on things.

perspective is in the eyes of the beholder.

you might think it's limited, another person might thinks it's broad.

I always thought this is what we should of been doing. We have 3 all-stars, shouldn't we stagger their minutes so at least one of them is on the floor at all times and being "featured"?

You know what Swish? You're right. I do have a reading comprehension problem. "......another person might thinks it's broad." I can't comprehend that.

I just realized something. Most of you probably never even heard of Spencer Haywood. My mistake. It's tough getting old.

Game-shape comes from practice conditioning, not game time. If anything, more minutes would of worn those guys down even quicker. We're talking 30 year old vets here.


Like I mentioned, Mike Miller WAS given the opportunity and it was an unmitigated disaster. Our worst loss was that Game 1 against the Bulls, where miller was -20 for the 16 minutes he was in. It doesn't do much in the way of rest if we have to play a whole other game to make up for the one we lost.


And I agree. And IMO, injuries to 3 of our starters and a poor job of putting a competent end-of-bench together were much more to blame than the coach giving more minutes to scrubs.



Most of the games were closely contested. In the games where we did pull away, those bench guys got minutes. But like I said above, putting in guys just for the sake of resting others does no good if we LOSE the game and then have to play a whole new game.

IMO, you have much more of an argument about this for this season. Blatt seemed to have shortened his rotation and was already riding the same 8 or so guys, rather than giving more minutes to guys like Mo and Andy. Maybe the intent was to give the starters more time to "gel" and then use February and March as a time to rest them more, but I guess we won't know that now.

Marion actually played quite a bit in the 1st 2 months or so of the season, but injured his hip late in the season, and, IIRC, returned with just a week or 2 left in the season. Hard to get much time in under those circumstances.

Miller was brought in, and valued, specifically because he could come into a game after sitting for a week straight, and perform. Unfortunately, he could not do that with the Cavaliers.

Would anyone retort me if I said... Mo Williams is only on the roster now as an "in-case" guy... in-case someone got injured. In-case someone...

Etc? Looks like Delly's defense gives him the playing time at point.

Mo is the insurance policy for Irving. In many ways, he's sort of a poor-man's version of Irving (Although, that's kind of harsh on Mo). So if Irving is around, then there's no real need to play Mo. Delly at least brings a different set of skills to the table.

Also, in Mo's defense he's been battling some sort of thumb injury since December.

OH, give me a break. You always take the side of the coach just as Mac always takes the side against management. I am not saying Love never posted up under Blatt, but it wasn't the norm. He was usually stuck on the left wing to "space" the floor.

Love is a great rebounder, and when he gets a defensive board, he turns, arms up and is looking for a deep outlet pass just as Wes Unseld did..our slow pace under Blatt took that weapon away.

Earlier in this thread I said Lue wanted to pick up the pace because he saw we need to score 115 a game to keep pace. How has that worked out so far?


Look, I don't like that Blatt was fired. Did he deserve it? No!....Will it make us a better team? IMO Yes. The way to score 115 a game is to have more shots at the rim and score more points with the clock stopped....as in free throws. We are doing that.

Open your mind my friend. It's not about what's right. It's about what works. Scoring 90 or so points under Blatt wasn't going to work.


It may not work out for us, but in the end I feel better throwing as many shots at the rim as possible.

You make a lot of good posts.

Rudy T remembers.

well the new an improved offense lasted all of 5 games..now we're back to looking like the team that got Blatt fired.. I swear I don't know what Mo did to piss people off, only reason i can explain why delly plays more minutes than him..Delly is painful to watch

Can we please figure out something with mosgov and his hands? Man this guy can't seem to get a good handle on the ball

Wow, all these turnovers...

Kyrie just..... He just isn't a floor general.

Stop with the mindless dribbling Irving!

Damn it's starting to get annoying.

one problem we need to clearly work through, it this is really glaring with kyrie, is that any time they face a bit of adversity, they start reverting back to the old ways.

kyrie always revert to playing ball when he was the only scoring threat on the squad pre-lebron days. he has open guys on the perimeter but just keeps dribbling and dribbling and dribbling.

wow that was an interesting stat.

in kyrie's career in overtime, his FT percentage is 100%

And he just made two more....

"..and you can book this one to the Cavaliers"

When is the last time we won in Indy? I just heard them mention it, and it has to be something like 8 or 9 games, isn't it?

6 years

Agreed.

If you have great players like we do, you feel pretty good about them throwing up as many shots as possible. Win or lose, I want my best players getting the ball as much as possible.

Whoa! I didn't think that it was that long.

Huge win, then, regardless of how it happened.