DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... American Exceptionalism

I hate when people say "when I retire I'm going to...."
Being a hospice nurse gives me insight into the reality of the human condition. Health is a fragile state. There is no guarantee of 'tomorrow'.
Find a balance between work and life. Simplify. Live below your means. Keep your monthly nut low. Then travel now. Fish now. Do, now. Longevity is no promise. Nor is it always a blessing. Live while your young. You'll never lay on your deathbed wishing you'd spent more time at the office. I regret every salmon run I miss. Yet I don't miss one workday I've ever taken off.

Amen brother. I hope the millennials take all of the technology that has been developed and use it to improve quality of life. All my generation did with it was use it as an anchor to further chain us to our job.

When technology was new and growing it was going to be this great time saver that freed us up to do so many other things... turns out all of those other things, were just more work. A task you used to get a month to do, with technology you could get done in a week, so they just gave you 4 more projects to do in that same month. I've been yelled at, at 8:00 am because I had not yet responded to the e-mail that went out at 9:00 pm the night before...

My fear is that millennials are going to use technology to further isolate themselves from other people, feeling like a text or a tweet is the same as an actual conversation, etc.. but my hope is that they take this extremely powerful set of tools and really do something meaningful to improve quality of life.

I don't think I disagree with much that you said.

You focused a bit on the "younger generation" - I don't think I mentioned the younger generation.

Perhaps our definition of "work ethic" is different? I'm not saying work ethic is defined by hours worked. It's defined (by me) as what you DO when you are working.

I was going to list a bunch of examples, but I decided not to.

Swish I saw DC response...and I'll tell you what..for ME I was lucky enough to had traveled for the type of work I was doing early in my life. When I got around man seems like 35 things kicked into high gear...I inherited a ton of money and that opened doors I wouldnt have had otherwise.

BUUUTTT I was gone in some crucial years for my sons in huge chunks of time...I thought I was doing the right thing man..having generational money...my family is taken care of...but damn I would give it all back to have had a better home life with my wife and kids.

So I read someones reply about balance...I wish I had used more balance...I saw obscene amounts of money coming in and wanted more. I honestly dont know how I stayed married through the whole thing...maybe part of it was my wife has her own very successful career going on...so its not like she was sitting around waiting on me...but my kids may no they did suffer because of it.

I had a serious stroke at 52 or so and I wasnt laying there in ICU saying man I need to go to work...I was thinking man is this it?? fu## I have to make things right with my wife and family.

Man all of that and really the answer is what are you and your family happy with?? My answer and everyone elses is probably different...and I'm not talking about just monetary..Im talking the whole shebang.

If youre happy where your at/heading and your wife is to..kids are good well crap man enjoy them and the rest should take care of its self.

DC, reading that, brought back memories. I've been doing the same job for over 33 yrs. and our Co. has been bought and sold 4 times. I work in what we call 1 person offices. We used to have meetings about 1-2 times a year for around 10 of us for worked in these 1 person offices. Althrough the '90's and early 2000's we would have to laugh as someone would bring up, " Hey did you hear about that report that was on TV about how you should cut back your hrs. and spend it with your family?"

We would laugh and say "yeah, they never worked here". I want to know how these "people" would have worked 40 hrs. a week and made it home to enjoy family time and still made enough money to live. I am the only bread winner in the family, my wife stayed home to raise our 3 children, and she is still home and the kids are now grown and I'm putting my girl through school with no loans. But anyway, back to the job, when you work in a one person office, you work 9-10 hrs. a day and some Sat.
Some of us are still wondering how we can provide for our family and still take off early for a game or to pick our kids up. No one has ever answered that question without saying just quit your job, then what? We just live on love?

Swish: Alot of good questions, but where are you coming up with all of this money to spend when your young? It takes years of hard work to be able to afford alot of what your coming up with, so wheres the beef? Do you just go in debt or do you just think anybody can take a job thats makes 6 figures?

Great point...

Your comments about work verses family were very eloquent. I believe you explained it very well!

I used to tell my boss that there seems to be two kinds of people. Those who work to live and those live to work. It doesn't mean people don't work hard. They simply put their family time as a higher priority than work.

I know I wish I would have.

It's hard for me to put a definition to how I feel about "work ethic".. I'm sure wiki has one but I may or may not agree with it.

I guess to be as brief as possible, it means you do your job and you do it with a sense of pride.

Problem is, those old guys, like me, have set up "the job" in a lot of cases such that it can't physically be done in a reasonable amount of time... I've heard bosses tell employees who complained, you can go home as soon as you are finished.. knowing full well it will be 7:30 by the time they are finished. The bosses right now are the boomers and the Gen Xers.. they started these long work hours and have designed the job with that in mind.

This is where the challenge is, millennials (most of the ones I know) have a great work ethic to get a 40-45 hour work week in, do it well, do it with pride... but the job is often designed around a 50-55 hour week.. so there is conflict.

My job is deadline driven. I could work 60 hours every week.... doing my work and when I'm not doing work, do business development looking for MORE work. It could be never ending. I try to manage it, I'm out of here most days by 5:30-6:00... most of my timesheets at the end of the week are in the 45-50 hour range.. I'm cool with that. Sometimes there is a big project or a big deadline and I'll put in a few 12 hour days in a row.. it happens and nobody complains about it.. but when that becomes more the norm than the exception, then you are doing something wrong. Hire more people, do something... nobody should work like that all the time.

I don't believe many see it that way at the time. I believe it's a lot like DC said, it comes from people who grew up with it.

In the moment, people believe they are taking good care of their family the best way they know how.

My dad grew up as the depression was ending. He knew exactly what abject poverty looked like. His objective was to provide the best he could for his family. He feared poverty. He moved from the mountains of Kentucky to Ohio before I was born for a union job when he got out of the Army.

He worked all he could and even took a part time week end job. The way he was raised and his life experiences dictated a lot of his actions. What he understood was what abject poverty meant and he fought it tooth and nail. As such we grew up a middle income family.

So I feel a lot of how you prioritize such things is based a lot on your life experiences.

And we all look back and second guess ourselves. That's only natural.

My wifes job is the same way...she finally started cutting down to about 60hrs a week but she still works from home when she is supposed to be off of work...so in essence she just went from her workplace to home being the workplace

When we get fully moved to New Mexico she isnt going to have to put in the hours she does...and I damn near have her talkjed into quitting...hell I'm going to show her this very thread...

I dont think a truer statement has been made...

Family ranks first for me.

When I work, trust me, I work.

I'm fortunate (and I know it). I can schedule around family for the MOST part.

And I think this is what many millennials are getting at.. why can't they? Even if they don't do what you do. A lot of jobs (especially office type jobs) lend themselves to working some from home, a lot of jobs could allow some flexibility in your hours.. yet a lot of bosses are extremely reluctant to do it. They want the butt in the chair from 8-5 or 9-6 or whatever the office hours are.

I actually had a 25 year old engineer come in my office one day and he was talking about this rigid schedule (we have since loosened up some but still have a ways to go).. and he said, "The company gave me this laptop to use right?" Yea.. "The company gave me this cell phone to use right?" Yea.. "The company made sure it's all set up so I can check e-mail and use Skype and all of this stuff no matter where I am right?" Yea... "The company has a VPN to allow me to access any files on the server from where ever I am right?" Yea... "The company paid to put all of the estimating and scheduling and management software I need on my laptop right?" Yea.... "Then why does the company require me to be HERE all of these hours?" I honestly didn't have a good answer for him. He held out his phone and his laptop and said, "With these two things, I could do 75% of my job from anywhere on the planet that has a decent internet connection, and the company paid for all of it... yet they make me sit in that office 8 or 9 hours a day every day. I don't get it." You know what, neither do I....

Great post. My Dad refuses anything the company tries to give him. It's ridiculous that your company expects you to work so much. Especially with most of it being unlogged hours.

Its like that in a alot of places...Man I asked my wife today after reading this thread if she works like that to avoid being around me

She hasnt spoken to me since...I was kidding...kind of. Her drive to be successful was one of the things I love about her..but its time to slow down and I'm showing her this thread after dinner.

I wish you were wrong.. not about your wife but about the problem in general... it's just more common in men. I think some work so much that they get into this routine where they feel more comfortable at work (I've also heard stories of women at home who had their own routine and started feeling really uncomfortable if the husband started being around more)..

I do think we use it as a fall-back, as an escape. I work with some older guys and you will find them in the office on Saturday even if they don't have anything pressing to do... it's just a habit. They are more comfortable there.

I hear you DC..and agree 100% Its odd because she doesnt have to work...but that woman hasnt missed a day of work in over 15yrs I'm not talking vacation or stuff like that..I mean just decides Im just not going in today.

If I hadnt had a stroke I would still be doing what I normally did...it opened my eyes and Im not asking her to quit...well I am...but just slow down...lets breath a little.

IDK its been a thorn for me since Ive been retired but I also understand her position its slowly changing for reasons I'm not saying on an open board....habit is sob sometimes...and I acknowledge I'm as part of the problem as she is...but something has to give...30yrs man and I want more time together.

I've been stacking money since I joined the army in 2006.

Deploying 4 times.....that's a ton of money we made, ask FBH. On top of that, we earned extra pay when stationed in Germany.

Also, my wife makes good money. She was making about 50k euro a year before we moved back to the states in 2013. The exchange rate was nuts back then.

So I bought myself a ride. Also, in Europe, everything is close.

I was stationed in Mannheim. Using that as a central location:

Prague, Amsterdam, Paris = 4 1/2 hour drives.
Berlin: 5
Zurich, Switzerland : 3 hours
Vienna, Austria: 7
Budapest, Hungary: 9.

So trips are stupid cheap. Might spend 600 bucks the entire weekend.

Also, I understand somebody is waiting to pounce and say *ahem* Arch "well, not everybody gets the chance to get a free trip to Europe"

And to that I'll say "so what's people's excuses who never even left the state of Ohio?

There's people in this country who hasn't even been to the next state over.

When I got stationed in Oklahoma, I still drove around and went to Texas, Arkansas, Vegas, Missouri, and Kansas.

You don't need 6 figures to travel. You just need gas money.

Thats the truth...God knows I put away a crap load...and man I didnt understand how people was BROKE and bumming money when we got back.

Poor bastards I helped was the ones whose wives spent it all charged the cards to the max and cleared the house out and they find out when they get home...my God the horror stories I could tell...you to I'm sure.

Told my sons to stash as much as possible...1 listened and the other well is broke.

Good post Swish.

What is it with you always mentioning me? You got a crush or what? Maybe it's just that you don't like what I have to say?

Maybe you should level with the board about your income and your schooling?

I'm not a car guy. You are. That's fantastic that you get a kick out of your BMW, that you yourself have said sucks in snow but you couldn't get out of it because you're upside down. If you're so flush with cash, get out of it.

Keep it real swish.

My ex wife was a massive workaholic. 10-12 hours a day at the office. Then come home and sit at the laptop all evening. She rose through the ranks quickly. Then she started becoming resentful because I didn't have the same desire to chase the dollar. It all became very sad and hollow. It's a big part of the reason I left. The financial security was great. The cost of losing the bigger part of our relationship was too high a price for me to be willing to pay. We had nice stuff. We traveled. It was hollow. I was alone yet married. Worst place on earth to be.
Since leaving I've worked hard now to put myself in a place of good balance. Save for the future. Have a house and a car...neither of which are status symbols. I could easily make $10,000 or more per year by increasing my hours at work but my life outside of work is worth more than that to me. I come home from work in the evenings and work is done. I don't talk about it. I bust my butt while 'on the clock' but I don't think about it for one minute afterwards. It does not define me or give me worth. It pays my bills and affords me a moderate level of comfort. That's it.
Maybe if my passion could pay my bills it'd be different. But like so many in this country I work to live. I don't have the luxury of loving my job. It's a means to an end. That's not to say it's bad. I'm thankful as hell for my employment. For my incredible boss. For a great group of caring coworker's. But if I could walk away tomorrow.... Gone.

I understand why you would say this but Swish dont do that...its not worth it...plus what will it accomplish?

Good post Portland...

How much do you think the 24 hour business cycle contributes to people working long hours? These days, business just don't close.

At my job, when we plan downtime for system maintenance/upgrade, we usually are given an 8 hour window from the business. If we don't need the full 8 hours, the business dictates which hours we use based on customer volume. It's almost like it's evil to tell a customer that we're closed, come back later.

For that reason, I find BH Photo to be an interesting company. They have Jewish ownership and close for the Sabbath and Jewish holidays. When I say close, I mean they don't even let you place an order on their website.

I mention you because you're constantly clueless.

Don't want to be mentioned? Don't be a pointless poster.

and FBH, it's all good. I've already done this before so it's no biggie doing it again.

First off, the car isn't upside down, as I took you guys advice and got to positive equity. I told you that, so why do you bring it up?

You're pointless.

Also my income and schooling.

Yes, dawg talkers, I get a gi bill so I don't pay for school. Also, I'm 100% va rated because of PTSD because of combat, so I get paid by the VA.

You happy now, arch? Got what you wanted?

I'm always happy. You?

So, instead of trading your car in that you were upside down on, you paid a bunch on the loan?

Gosh, if that's the case, it sounds like you took my advice.

By the way, I'm not constantly clueless, thanks.

Pointless poster? Who, me? Possibly. Take from my posts what you want.

And buddy, I'm not clueless.

Nah, you're pretty clueless.

and pointless. You prove that everyday.

Nice. You have yourself a nice night bud.

I don't want to be a kill joy DC, but some of your examples just aren't possible. I can't just up and leave with nobody to replace me. I don't choose my hours or whether or not I should work Sat. My job's been steady over all the years, but I have to grin about all these " oh sure, just leave and go be with your family" Next day the whole freaking family would be out at Walmart with our will work for food signs.

Word.

People got remember, there's nothing wrong with grinding.

But how long is the issue. Are you gonna grind working 80 hours a week until you retire?

Or are you just gonna grind during the week, and actually use the weekend as a reset button.

It is a contributing factor.. when I lived in DC area my wife worked for a high end car dealership... they were increasing their service hours and considering going 24/7 on the service department. the reason was quite simple, people who could afford these cars generally worked a lot, it was very inconvenient for them to bring their car in during the day so they thought about staying open all night... One of the reasons I admire companies like the one you mentioned and Chick-fil-a... we're closing, if you want food, go somewhere else, we'll be here on Monday.

That's easy to do in fast food, harder to do when you are selling high end cars, if people go and don't come back, that's some big losses...


That is the service model and.. I'll just admit it.. a lot of consumers are spoiled brats. They want what they want, when they want it, regardless of how much it might inconvenience others... and companies cave and provide it for them.

I don't like it, but I understand it.. if you aren't willing to meet even the most unreasonable demands, somebody else will and it could cost you a long term customer... It takes major cajones to take the approach that people can go somewhere else if that's what they need to do but your business works a certain way.

Lovely story.

I missed out, yesterday, on doing work for a guy that owns 200-300 apartments. Why?

Because I couldn't connect with the lady on the phone, despite my 4 phone calls. In between, I was shuttling my daughter from school, to practice, to home, to drivers ed.

Finally got in contact with the lady today. Turns out they found someone else. To do work on 1 apartment which they needed done immediately.

I would love to do work for them, but honestly, not if they're going to call and say "we need this done, this afternoon."

Thats not the vibe I got at all...I saw balance.

And I damn sure didnt advocate leaving and then work at walmart.

Man I must be out of touch...but if 1 day puts your family out and needing food signs...youve got more problems then worrying about freaking family time.

Its time to step out here for the day the posts seem to be getting freaking retarded.

Ok, just chill man. I was joking. The point being, not everyone works an office job where if you take off early or call off once in awhile nobody notices it. I work alone and I have to give notice if I want a vacation, and if your sick? You still have to give them enough time to replace you and if they can't, you work sick.

Sorry man, my sense of humor isnt calibrated today...and I see your point.

Jobs are different, industries are different. If you are a bank teller, you have to be there when the bank is open, you can't flex your hours, you can't work from home.. I think people understand that.

Now I don't know what you do so I can't address any specifics.. point is that slowly employers are coming around to this notion that driving your employees until the drop doesn't work so much any more.. and with the influx of younger millennials, it's going to work less and less.

And sometimes it's not even about "Just leave and go be with your family".. sometimes its just about using the time your company gives you. If you are sick, stay home. If you have vacation, use it. Do you know how many earned vacation hours go unused in this country? I believe the reason is that people feel so self-important, like the company is just going to fall apart if they are gone for a week.

I've done presentations on generational differences.. I've done presentations on work-life balance... (which I find to be a really lousy phrase, it should just be life balance, of which work is a part).. I'm not trying to condemn any individual or job or industry.. just stating general trends from studies I've read and some personal experiences from things I've seen.

Yeah I know, I think your a pretty smart fellow, and was hoping you would be able to give me some insight on this.
I'm hoping to retire in a couple of years. The company's been cutting back on people and loading up on extra work, don't think their one of the ones who are thinking about the health of the workers. I'll be glad when I'm done.

I feel you bleed. I worked 60-70-80 hours a week my whole life. Was I a workaholic. Hell no I didn't do it because I liked being there. I did it because I would have been fired and replaced if I didn't. I didn't get sick days, or personal days. Most years I only had one weeks vacation because that's all I was allowed, not because I made a choice to not take them.

V

Good for you. You earned it. However, your posts often indicate that you feel everyone should be given the opportunity to receive the same benefits you do, without earning them.

There is a difference between earned benefits and entitlements. Free rides are never free.

My parents paid for my college education. I paid for my graduate degrees. I did the grueling work to see the opportunity through to completion. I used my education all of my life. Now, I work with others who are where I once was.

Does that mean I must fund everyone else who now decides they choose education?

Education must come with a price for it to be meaningful. Whether it be financial, hard work or just plain sacrifice. Does this mean in debt to the tune of hundreds of thousands? No.

Perhaps some need to consider aquiring a skill and working for a while with a plan of college at a later date. Often, older studens are more mature and prepared for the college grind. They get more out of it and are better prepared to enter the work force using their college degree.

Sometimes, I I feel parents are caught up in the "keeping up with the Jonses" syndrome.

Fortunately, for our family, we could care less. It is more important for our child to be happy and productive in life than forced to compete within a meaningless framework.