DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... American Exceptionalism

Not gonna lie, I could spend hours reading this thread and posts by DC and a few others. Fantastic stuff. This quote in particular.



This really stood out to me.

This thread is where our American experiences, as individual as they are and will be, shine through!

I never said i wanted education free. i also said i don't agree with Bernie sanders that education should be free.

however, it shouldn't be this freaking expensive. it has gotten out of control.

i just copied this from my account tab from CSU:

/30/2015 Payment Check ($2,375.00) ($1.00)
01/04/2016 Athletic Fee Spr 2016 $12.00 $11.00
01/04/2016 MTH 148 Lab Fee Spr 2016 $150.00 $161.00
01/04/2016 RTA U-Pass Fee Spr 2016 $30.00 $191.00
01/04/2016 UGRD Tuition In State Spr 2016 $4,818.00 $5,009.00
01/06/2016 Parking Hangtag Spr 2016 $180.00 $5,189.00

That's just for one semester, with the in-state tuition rate.

now imagine if i was still 18. room and board, plus the meal plan.....good god.

oh, and the athletic fee is mandatory, so is the RTA fee(bus fee). you don't even get an option to opt out of those.


now, i'm not saying it should be free, but since this thread is about American Exceptionalism, then if you compare that to european nations, like Germany, college is free.

Free compared to in debt to your eye balls? not a very hard decision.

The

Exactly. That is why the suggestion of waiting and choosing college later in life. I know you are not a traditional student, having just graduated high school. You did wait because you were busy preparing and defending this country.

Simply suggesting that sometimes life requires sacrifices and perhaps one of them should be waiting to attend college at a later date when students are gainfully employed and can pay some of their debt on their own.

Expecting others to pay for college just because that is what a student wants at the time, is unacceptable.

There are many ways to become a productive member of society and contribute. College is just one.

I am merely suggesting a look at college tuition costs, including interest rates as a possible solution.

What would "free" mean to everyone else in society?

the whole "who pays for college" thing is cultural.

let's make that clear.

anyway, interest rates, sure. maybe we should also tackle the universities jacking up the prices in the first place? that would be an excellent start.

also, being a productive member of society is relative. Working at McDonald's is being a productive member of society, so is being a CEO.

but when employers are demanding college degrees plus work experience, well...we can call it a scam all we want, but it's one that if you don't allow yourself to get scammed, your chances of making decent money go down.

also, this:

Swish, I agree and would submit that any person gainfully employed could be considered productive. I have a friend who has a downs child who is an adult. She works at McDonalds. Gainfully employed. I would say so.


Where I live, the tool and die industry is alive and well. Maybe a bit slower than the 80s and 90s but alive and well just the same. A high school friend with no college education who just built the home of his dreams back a beautiful country lane. He works in tool and die. He is now 53. Sacrificed, worked hard, made his family a priority and waited until he was in his 50s to build his dream home.

Seems to me that we want it all now. The million dollar home, two cars, toys, kids AND someone else to pay for it.

I see these reality shows where young families are looking for a home: budget 1-2 million. Really? I mean really?

There are several corporations in our area that offer on the job training to recent high school grads. If they are willing to work hard, be a dedicated employee and have no expectation of immediately becoming the CEO, there are many job opportunities for them. Many don't appear willing to stand in line and pay their dues.

All I am saying is that, as a culture, we have become demanding of everything NOW. That is not how life works. We tell our son, all you will get out of life is what you put in. And, sometimes, the return will not be fair. That is life.

Sacrifice and hard work are still the barometer. May sound old and out of touch but those who have sacrificed and worked hard in my life, are those who I continue to admire, respect and aspire to emulate.

well, if we are talking about wanting everything now, then this isn't anything new at all.

we wanted "everything now" the moment we started outsourcing jobs to the chinese for products that were built faster and cheaper in what? the 80's, 90's?

also, i have to disagree with "someone else to pay for it"

i think thats a gross exaggeration that has no basis in fact.

actually, if you wanna use facts, look at the thread in Pure Football. then look at all the major corporations who get subsidies.

seems like the only people that want other people to pay for something is rich people.

because if what you said was true, then we wouldn't have so many citizens going into debt, sacrificing financial security for a chance to get a degree and get a good paying job. wouldn't have so many people taking two-three jobs to put food on the table.

that doesn't sound like a population wanting others to pay for their lifestyles to me.

so your statement and the reality simply doesn't add up. IMO, of course.

Not speaking of sacrifice in the sense of going to college and sacrificing financial security in one's life.

Speaking of sacrifice as living within ones means: not owning a two hundred thousand dollar home, not owning/leasing two brand new SUVs and not joining the fancy gyms to name just a few.

Right now, I need to go and meet with a group of high schoolers preparing their future at our local career technical institute.

Enjoy the day. Hope this discussion continues as it is enlightening.

Well using other peoples money come to mind...



Dont confuse people who are scraping by and are prideful or just dont have access to money to pay for their lifestyles or wanted lifestyles...and dont ask for jack...to the ones who you know damn well do want other people to pay for them in anyway they can get it.

And there are a crapload of people who want want want...as long as they dont have to pay squat.

Give me a minute to collect myself...I dont think I worded that the way I wanted to.

of course, if you're talking about fantasies.

let me explain.

If bill gates came to me right now and said "reggie, i'm giving you money for the rest of your life to spend it on whatever".

you think i'mma turn that down? nope.

i know that's extreme, but just wanted to lighten the mood.

but really, look, you guys aren't gonna get any argument out of me with regards to people buying crap they know damn well they can't afford, then want to turn around and blame it on somebody else.

i'm in agreement, but that's not what i'm arguing.

typical college kids aren't making those decisions. they're wishing they ATM machine allowed them to take a dollar out so they can buy a sandwich at mcdonalds. Also, we're expecting kids to make decisions as if they're 30+ year olds with 10 years of real life experience.

for you guys with grown or close to grown kids already, you know that isn't the case whatsoever. kids thinking like that is beyond rare.

and that's not me making excuses for them, but what i'm saying is that with regards to tuition...come on, the crap is out of control.

with regards to life styles. look, i understand i'm one of the few, if not the only poster on this board who thinks like this....but so what if people want what they want?

if they can afford it, the bills paid, they aren't living off welfare..then who cares?

if somebody got a job, and they wanted to spend all their extra cash on a nice new ride, then whatever. thats their dream. not mine.

and thats what people need to reminds themselves of. your life's goal isn't the same as somebody elses. your priorities aren't the same as the next person. what you deem important isn't going to be the same.

if somebody is working hard, and they want a nice ass ride to celebrate the grind, then so what? if you working hard, and you decide to take 4k and blow it on a family vacation, then so what?

as long as you can afford it, do it. Cause your kids aren't gonna remember that you blew 4k out of your bank account. they are gonna remember having fun with their dad at the beach, or going go cart racing with their old man, or that time they got lost in the woods in the mountains, and their parents led them back to the camp site. and all those little memories in between.

i got bread in the savings account for a rainy day. i make sure the bills are paid before i do anything else.

after that...whatever happens, happens. your money doesn't go with you when your buried 6 feet deep.

I agree with this and I think I posted as such or was it school/parents need to do a better job of being involved in that process??...either way common sense needs to be applied..unfortunately not many seem to have it.

I dont have a problem with what people do with their money that they earned...I have a problem with people that over extend themselves and then want to cry how life isnt fair...or people who think I should pay MORE for them to get schooling, welfare, healthcare...ect..ect.

Swish my hope for you is someday you make what people deem rich...and youre paying the tax man and go WTF how much is enough?? Sorry man its a hell of a lot more then touchy subject for me.

Ive saw you say you wont mind paying more in taxes for such and such...I wish I knew you better I would show you my last tax filing and would look you dead in yo face and want to see your expression...or response.

oh trust me man i feel you. there's no such thing as a tax refund for some of you guys.

that's why i word my post the way i do. i think individuals pay enough in taxes, however i don't think corporations do.

Got you young man.

Thank you. I don't know where this idea that college kids expect to be CEO right out of college came from. Most that I've ever encountered would be beyond thrilled just to work at entry level in their career field to help pay off their student loans.


I feel like a lot of the hyperbole I read and problems in society are because the wrong people have the ability to be heard.

I hate to narrow your post down to this one thought, but it stood out to me.

For this reason:

Colleges and Universities cost so much because they are in business. The customers are students.

How do you attract customers? Build shiny new buildings. Have perks. Add degree programs that serve no real world function, and market them extensively. That degree in fashion design, or intercollegiate studies, art history, basket weaving, etc? Are they necessary, or useful for a career? Most of the time, no.

However, offering degree programs in things like that does what for the college? Opens up the door to new customers. Paying customers that think they're getting ahead, when all they're doing is paying to get the college ahead. Sure, they get a "degree".

Colleges are a business, first and foremost. They will add to their menu in order to attract paying customers. They will build fancy new dorms, arenas, restaurants, etc - in order to attract their customers. All those things cost money.

I agree with you that the costs are crazy. But, I can see why they are.

$27,000 plus fees for my son to get his masters degree. And that's not even expensive in comparison to many places. BUT, his degree WILL bump him way up in income. So, for him, it's a trade off.

A BA in intercollegiate studies? That took 5 years to get? What's that worth.

Colleges are in BUSINESS.

It is out of control.. and the bulk of it has nothing to do with improving education.


You aren't the only one that feels that way, in fact I bet the majority of people here feel that way.. we may debate for hours on whether it's the smart way to live, but nobody would deny somebody the right to do what they want with their own money.

Here is the problem that I have and you may know some people who fit this description.. somebody has a decent job, making decent money, buying nice stuff, taking the trips, all on their own money.. hey, don't judge them. then something bad happens, economy turns, job moves overseas, whatever.. now they've got nothing. They have a house full of expensive stuff and no way to feed the family.. now they don't want 10 weeks of unemployment, they want 6 months of unemployment.. They don't want to have to unload the 65" flatscreen to buy food, that would be UNFAIR...

I know this doesn't apply to you but.. if you want to live with no regard for tomorrow, then if tomorrow gets here and it's now what you expected, don't cry about it when you are unprepared.

Arch...you know I think yure a good dude...but college is stupid expensive...I had GI bill so did my wife and what wasnt covered well we worked and paid it off as we went.

My oldest had a scholarship to OSU and some other schools...he told me last night he doesnt know how people do it and pay for it all...he is covered by the GI bill also.

It is a problem...and one I'm glad I dont have to deal with...nor will my grandchildren...but damn I feel for people that are trapped in it.

I will concede there is a trade off.

Damn thats all that needed to be said

oh i feel you bro, that's why you gotta have that "oh crap" account. whats the golden rule? atleast 3-6 months worth of money saved to pay the bills?

Uh..........I think that's what I was saying?

I know college is super expensive. I know.

A college is a business, like it or not. They need to attract customers. How they do it is spending money on programs that offer little benefit for a career, building the latest and greatest.

Loans are easy to get for the customers - and that's all the business needs to entice the customer to buy their product.

Of the 1,791,000 bachelor’s degrees conferred in 2011–12, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (367,000), social sciences and history (179,000), health professions and related programs (163,000), psychology (109,000), and education (106,000)

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=37

I've been letting you post this ignorant statement for a while now, but its time to stop.

the majority of students aren't getting degrees in art. most of the students are getting degrees in fields that matter and have high job outlooks.

now that you have been schooled the facts, please stop repeating it. cause after this, you'll then just be considered a liar.

I've re read his post and what he said wasn't close to what you responded to . Your constant arguing with with Arch is tired . Every thread doesn't have to devolve into this circus . I like a lot of things that you post , respect your opinion and want more of those posts .

That is one rule.. the other rule, the one that I prefer, is that you should have enough money to cover all of your bills based on 1 month for every $10K in income. If you make $40K a year, you should be able to cover yourself for 4 months.. If you make $100K, you should have 10 months put away.

The reason is simple, there are far more $40K jobs out there than there are $100K jobs.. so the more you make, the harder it will be to find an equivalent job.....

Also, for a bit of anecdotal, being an active college kid, everybody is trying to get degrees in industries that make money.

theres some guys i go to school with that are business majors as well, and their only reason for doing it was because "who doesn't wanna fly across the country, have one night stands and make money?"

regardless of their motivation, these kids ain't stupid. kids today are using technology and such to chase the cash. i think some of you guys gotta give us a bit more credit

you don't remember his post talking about basket weaving and such?

i simply posted the facts. we should be correcting people when they make incorrect statements.

Hey, as long as they have an eye on how their education is actually going to translate into them making a living.. good for them.

Even though, it's just as easy to drive to the next city over and find a one night stand as it is to fly across the country and find one.. and you don't need much money to do that.

hell, i use to dream about flying to Dubai and balling out of control.

it's one reason i was always into international business. i wanted to be one of those guys who was driving a lambo with a pet cheetah in the passenger seat.

still want the cheetah, btw.

Da hell get into you man?

You totally don't get what I'm saying. I guess that falls on me.

Let me try again: College costs a lot.

Here are reasons college costs a lot:

Colleges are businesses. To succeed in business, you must have customers. How do you attract customers? Build shiny new dorms and buildings (costs money) offer degree programs that attract customers. Whether it helps the customer or not in the long run, well, they gave us money.

I didn't say people graduated. They attended.

I didn't say all, or even most degree programs are bad. I said SOME are. Please dude, try to keep up.

Now that your schooling is done, have you learned anything?

I'm not an expert on everything. However, neither are you.

I do have an honest question. Your link says "health professions and related programs" degreed 163,000 students.

If we average that out to 50 states, that's 3,260 students per state. That doesn't seem like many. Is that right?

Plus, what's a business degree worth?
Social science and history?
Psychology?

How many of these graduates work in their field?

One of those guys? Those guys actually exist?

And if these college kids think that is going to happen any time soon... 99% of them are sadly mistaken. Most of them will end up in a cubicle for the first 5 years. One or two might hit the right idea that makes them rich quick, the rest will have a long slow grind to the top.

You didn't catch on that "basket weaving" was an exaggeration?

If he says it enough times he thinks it will be true

Most colleges are public and are run by the states, they are owned and controlled by the state, they are subsidized by the state.. they are not profit centers and I'm pretty sure almost all of them, if you took away state money, would be operating at a fairly significant loss.

That's not to say that some of what you say isn't true.. they do compete for applicants and enrollees.. they compete for the best professors and faculty... they compete with other colleges in the state, out of the state, and private institutions... so they are like a hybrid, they are competing for business, but they aren't "businesses".. they are tax-exempt state government entities.

Which I believe is part of the problem.. any time a state entity is trying to compete on a level playing field with a private organization..

I guess I'm just getting old.

How do colleges attract customers? Answer that, and then answer "how do they pay for attracting customers?"

Colleges are tax exempt businesses that spend money like crazy to attract new customers.

It's SUPPOSED to be because of them providing the best academic experience as possible.

Well, that's the part where reality hits.

Those guys do exist. But they are few and far between(did I say that right?)

However, the traveling and such isn't. Those are purchasing managers and such.

And that's a field I'm interested in. Purchasing, contracts, that sort of stuff.

Supply chain management has a very nice job outlook. Plus I can take that degree around the world in 80 days if I want to, ya know? man these kids today are thinking global. They wanna work overseas and such


But what's crazy is that there seems to be waaaayyyy more females in school than guys. I dunno if I'm just seeing things or if that's becoming a reality.

Yes you are... but I don't think that's relevant to this discussion.


I've talked at length about this.. they attract customers three ways... (and the order of these will vary based on the relative importance to the kid)

first is to be recognized in the various rating systems as having a quality program in the degree being sought.. If you have a highly ranked Pre-med program and some kid is serious about being pre-med, he/she is going to seriously consider your school.

second is cost, you don't have to be cheap, you just have to be reasonable or CHEAPER than the competition...

third is the whole "college experience".. this includes a lot of things, some kids want a smaller school, some want a bigger school with nationally recognized sports programs to watch, very active social lives, etc.. some want to go to a school in a smaller town, some would prefer to be closer to a city, but most kids want the best facilities like student unions, campus living, dining, recreation, etc..

This third criteria is where a lot of schools get crazy with their spending... and it has really nothing to do with the quality of education.

I've stated this before, I do a lot of work on college campuses as it relates to their construction. It is far easier for them to get funding for things that fall in the "revenue generating" category than it is those things that fall in the "non-revenue generating" category. Things that fall in the "revenue generating" include things like dining halls, dormitories, and athletic facilities.. because people pay extra for those. Non-revenue generating facilities include classroom buildings, libraries, etc... it is much harder to get funding to build and improve those... which seems kind of counter intuitive to me when I consider what the mission of a college/university SHOULD BE.

Maybe we have a problem the education of our children and the healthcare of our citizens become a business rather than a right.

Capitalism is a wonderful thing, until people are denied the right to be healthy and educated because of it.

Right.

And unfortunately, there’s no shortage of unscrupulous people who won’t hesitate to fleece the poor of what little money they have. (Psychic “Friends”, televangelists, stupid lose weight now products).

But Capitalism - as a means of large-scale social order and advancement - is probably the lesser of all evils so far.

...and the worst of the worst: Payday loan centers.

Every time I see one of those things, I silently wish that someone would torch them to ash.

Awful things. Barely-legal loan sharking operations.

[quoteand the worst of the worst: Payday loan centers.

Every time I see one of those things, I silently wish that someone would torch them to ash.
[/quote]

Can you tell me why? other then what they charge people with terrible credit to loan money...what is your problem exactly? If you'd be so inclined Clem...

I tell you one thing...for the ones who own them they sure are a money maker...here nor there I'd like to know why you would like to see them burnt to ashes...I may not see this till tomorrow but would be interested in your response if you feel like it.