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Bone...I saw Wentz as a possibility for the Browns early in this discussion. I think Wentz is a good fit for the Browns. Here is what I said about Wentz back on Jan 13.
bone...I took the time to watch some video on Wentz earlier and again this morning.
He does remind me a bit of Rothlisberger when he was at Miami. Wentz looks like a better runner but his processing and release appear to be a bit slower than Ben's.
I like Wentz's size...I believe size is a quality that should be a consideration when drafting a QB.
I like the fact that Wentz played his ball in a similar enviroment/climate (to Cleveland).
I would expect him to move up draft boards.
I also believe that Dak Prescott should be considered as having Russell Wilson type skills and should not be overlooked.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Vers, I believe Hue got the QB whisperer name from his collective work with QBs at a couple stops. There was Flacco, who reportedly was not ready coming into the league, but Hue more or less got him ready. There was his time in Oakland, where he made Pryor and (I think) that baby-faced McWhatshisname look like actual NFL QBs. Then there was his work with Dalton.
Whether you think he can do it with this draft's crop of QBs is one thing, but his past work with young guys is impressive.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Does anyone believe Wentz is a guy that could come in and start immediately?
We can talk about "ruining him" or whatever till we are blue in the face.
But with a solid scheme, run by Hue. To protect him. Is he a guy that could grow into the position. Or is he a guy we HAVE to sit regardless of how ready he "might be"
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Does anyone believe Wentz is a guy that could come in and start immediately? Lots of guys probably do. All of those guys are probably wrong though. He's about as ready as Weeden was. Hue can probably teach him how to avoid the giant American flag in training camp.
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oober...........this is not an insult towards you at all, but I really don't think Hue ever had the QB Whisperer tag. I think it was made-up by hopeful Brown's fans.
I can understand and empathize w/those fans, but it still doesn't make it a fact.
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The only rap on him is the level of competition. I am going to preface this by saying........you can either listen to me because of my history of evaluations on QBs or you can diss me because my evaluation of Wentz doesn't fit in w/your thinking. On the remote chance you wanna consider what I have to say, I will say that MY rap on him is that he processes things slowly. His reads are slow. He holds the ball too long. He is doing that against weaker defenders. Making such slow decisions in the NFL will lead to a lot of sacks and picks. I said similar things about Brandon Weeden. Remember all the grief you guys gave me about that? I really am not trying to be confrontational and I realize it might come across that way. I'm just trying to say that I see a big problem w/his game. After that...........it still amazes me that you love Wentz but don't like Osweiler. Pretty incredible.
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All I know is the private work out with Wentz will be big. For all the talk of NDSU running a pro-style offense, it didn't look like anything I've ever seen in the AFC North. I'd like to see more deep throws to the outside. He throws some seams up the middle, and can throw out-routes, but I didn't see him hit double moves outside deep or straight goes.
He runs a lot when things break down. He'll have to rein that in. The wrist injury concerns me a bit. It's his throwing arm, and he had to have surgery rather than just a break and cast. He did make reads, but he'll have to speed them up. Level of competition is a concern, but not a huge one for me.
Everything else I can think of I like.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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Does anyone believe Wentz is a guy that could come in and start immediately?
We can talk about "ruining him" or whatever till we are blue in the face.
But with a solid scheme, run by Hue. To protect him. Is he a guy that could grow into the position. Or is he a guy we HAVE to sit regardless of how ready he "might be" nope. I don't see a QB worthy of a #2 overall pick...or even a first round pick
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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I don't know exactly why, but I like your posts even when I don't totally agree w/you.
You come across like you are being fair and I certainly think that you have some knowledge. Keep posting, man. We need all the help we can around here.
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I am going to preface this by saying........you can either listen to me because of my history of evaluations on QBs or you can diss me because my evaluation of Wentz doesn't fit in w/your thinking.
On the remote chance you wanna consider what I have to say, I will say that MY rap on him is that he processes things slowly. His reads are slow. He holds the ball too long. He is doing that against weaker defenders. Making such slow decisions in the NFL will lead to a lot of sacks and picks.
I said similar things about Brandon Weeden. Remember all the grief you guys gave me about that?
I really am not trying to be confrontational and I realize it might come across that way. I'm just trying to say that I see a big problem w/his game.
It's hard for me to get a feel for Wentz's reads without the all-22 view and more knowledge of what his progressions/reads are supposed to be. The problem I have with the weaker defenders argument is that he also had weaker receivers to throw to. It looks like he's going to have gone against more DBs that are drafted than he's going to have pass catchers get drafted. How do you compare Wentz now to Flacco at Delaware? I'll admit I could only find highlights of Flacco instead of full game cut-ups, but Flacco didn't seem to be getting the ball out a whole lot faster.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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I am enjoying our conversations. Please don't get offended if I disagree. My intent is not to offend. Just talking, man.....
The problem I have with the weaker defenders argument is that he also had weaker receivers to throw to. It looks like he's going to have gone against more DBs that are drafted than he's going to have pass catchers get drafted.
A read is a read. You sound like you know the game, so you know what I mean, right? A play is called. You typically are supposed to throw it between 1.8 to 2.1 seconds....maybe a bit longer in college. If your guy isn't open, you go to your second progression. Again, this is tough in college because a lot of offenses only have one read. If that ain't there, you either check down immediately or run it. I am saying that when I watched Wentz, he stares down receivers too long and does not throw w/anticipation. I made the same comments about Weeden. It's a killer! Now, I have not completely determined he is Weeden-esque yet, but it's a huge issue for me. How do you compare Wentz now to Flacco at Delaware? I'll admit I could only find highlights of Flacco instead of full game cut-ups, but Flacco didn't seem to be getting the ball out a whole lot faster. I can't comment w/any intelligence on that question because I really didn't scout Flacco when he was in college. I'm not dodging the question, but I don't like making things up to sound like I know what I'm saying.
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I'm not sure that you can (always) boil it down to a read is a read. Sometimes you have to let the pre-snap read develop, other times go through the straight progression. It depends on the system/play call/situation/defense. There can be a lot that goes into it, and I'm sure that I can't always decipher it from the broadcast look. What games of Wentz' have you watched? (Just trying to gather context) I was looking for more film to try to see if I could see what you were seeing and ran across this hour long analysis (semi-pro/amateur "scout") of Wentz' 1st championship game. I thought it was interesting and for the most part echoes my perspective. I'd definitely skip the first 8 minutes. Carson Wentz 1st Championship Breakdown Sadly, I haven't found any full Flacco games from college, either. Was trying to see if I could compare the two, would share the small school background and would have Hue in the pros potentially to develop them.
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Staring down receivers is a given in the NFL. You make way too big a deal over it. Elway did it all the time and got away with it with a gun for an arm.
Wentz has all the arm he needs.
Talk to us more about throwing into double and triple coverages. Couch did it all the time. He also stared down receivers but didn't have the arm to get away with it.
I'm in the crowd that has no doubt Wentz is going to mature into a top QB. And he's a football nut with top notch work ethic and squeeky clean background.
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Staring down receivers is a given in the NFL. You make way too big a deal over it This leads to throwing the ball late. It's the same thing I said about Timid and Weeden. You didn't want to hear it then, either. Some Dawgs just don't learn...
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j/c
I really couldn't sleep last night because my mind was busy churning QBs. The comparison to ponder that I've landed on is Cam Newton. Their games are similar, but to me Wentz looks more advanced in his reads in the passing game. Admittedly, Wentz is not the physical specimen that Cam was/is.
I don't think a Weeden Comparison is really fair to Wentz. Weeden couldn't deal with pressure. I think that was a much bigger issue than the speed of his reads (not to say that that wasn't a factor). On film, Wentz shows the ability to climb the pocket, escape pressure, manipulate the pocket in general, and fire strikes with a man in his face.
Is Wentz a finished product? No, but he seems to have a lot of the things you either have or you don't. Unlike Weeden, I also think he has a lot of room for growth. He was a late bloomer, and is honestly fairly new to QB. He wasn't one of those guys who was groomed to play QB from Peewee on up. He seems a natural, and his "highs" really "flash." His issues seem correctable with good coaching. I'll give you reads can be hard to improve, but I think you are selling him short in that area, Vers. Even though speeding up reads can be difficult, I give Wentz more probability of being one who can because of where he is on his career arc and his mental makeup.
There is risk involved. But as our past drafts have shown, there is rarely a sure thing in the NFL projection business. Wentz doesn't seem to have any of the red flags that, in retrospect, should have been issues with our past selections. Work ethic, team player, intelligence, physical tools, leadership- he seems to check all those boxes.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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The Weeden comparison is that they both hold the ball too long because they struggle processing what they are seeing. It's a kiss of death.
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Is Wentz struggling to process or has he read the coverage and is waiting for his receiver to reach the hole in the zone? That's the question to me, and it's hard to answer just from broadcast angle film.
Can you give me particular instances that you are seeing this problem in, so that I can dig into them more?
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Wentz has much better pocket awareness and athleticism than Weeden. He's a much better prospect.
#gmstrong
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It is rare to come out of college and be ready to play in the NFL. In cases like last year with Mariota and Winston the teams knew they would not be able to really compete for a playoff position so they wanted their guys to gain experience.
Even Andrew Luck who was the most prepared for the NFL had to have time to develop.
You can not look at these guys and expect to see a Pro Bowl player right out of the box. You judge their talent "as is". You look at core competencies. That determines what you have to work with. Then you try to project how the player will evolve.
Carson Wentz checks all the boxes. He has the natural tools you look for in a prospect.
Weeden in my mind was not even a legit NFL prospect. He was 28 years old and had a big arm. End of story.
Side note: Wentz came to college in a non traditional manner because of an injury in his junior year of high school; he was not recruited. If Wentz had gone to one of the power football schools he would have been "the rage". Given the route he did end up taking and going to ND State he is now in the discussion of being the first quarterback taken. Plug that into the equation.
If Blake Bortles is worth the third pick in the draft there is no doubt in my mind that Wentz is worth the second pick in this draft.
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If Blake Bortles is worth the third pick in the draft there is no doubt in my mind that Wentz is worth the second pick in this draft. Was Bortles overdrafted?
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If you want to breakdown his game tape? Let's go.
Get specific let's look at games and plays.
You want to make comparisons? Let's be specific. Let's look at Big Ben tape in college or Flacco or anyone else and compare their college tape.
It is easy to be critical. I can pick out plays of almost any quarterback and go "look see that; see what he did wrong there".
I watched Derek Carr in a number of college games melt under pressure. I thought this guy will never make it in the NFL. He seems to be doing alright.
Wentz is legit first round prospect. And I hope he ends up with the Browns.
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If Blake Bortles is worth the third pick in the draft there is no doubt in my mind that Wentz is worth the second pick in this draft. Was Bortles overdrafted? Maybe, probably, but this past season you could see that he had the best upside of all the QBs in that class, as he has closed the gap to Bridgwater and Carr. I like Wentz better than all of those. As bonefish said, he really checks all the boxes, but his mature pocket feel is what sets him apart for me. He can throw on the run, he can scramble, but looks to throw first, not afraid to take hits, not afraid to take deep shots when he sees 1on1. Weeden wasn't even close. I was a fan of him, admittedly mainly because I was fed up watching McCoy puss around and pad his stats with stupid dump offs. Weeden had the arm and some touch, but he needed a clean pocket and was lost and too scared when rushed. Imagine Weeden's arm, Bridgewater's smartness, Bortle's body and athleticism and you have Wentz and I'd argue there's still something positive missing and that's, again, his pocket game. He's a mix of all those guy's strengths and then some and that's a pretty good start. He has all it takes and there's a lot of nit picking in this thread.
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Not sold on anyone but I still see #1 Lynch #2 Goff and #3 Wentz
Lynch greatest upside, I think he is a mid first prospect upside could push him into top 10. I love the kid and I dont want to take a QB top 10 but if i do he is my choice.
Goff lowest floor and again is in that 2nd wave of talent will be top 5 on some boards depending upon system. west coast teams will love this kid.
Wentz has a lot of tools i really like but that long bend that slows him down concerns me and the level of competition is of great concern. I hear people say well he had low level receivers to go against those low level corners but the game at that level is just at a much s;lower speed. The windows are much bigger and he has time. I saw it in the senior bowl. Not saying he isnt gonna be a good QB but he is a higher risk player and is more of end of first early 2nd type player than someone you would take at 2.
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That's why I watched the game AT Iowa State, it was from 2014 to boot and he was the main reason they beat em up 34-14. Now, Iowa State was a 2-10 team that year, but this 20p egg was among their worst all season and this same Iowa St. team won at Iowa two weeks later.
Level of competition doesn't qualify for me. Watch the tape and tell me where he sucks?
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That's why I watched the game AT Iowa State, it was from 2014 to boot and he was the main reason they beat em up 34-14. Now, Iowa State was a 2-10 team that year, but this 20p egg was among their worst all season and this same Iowa St. team won at Iowa two weeks later.
Level of competition doesn't qualify for me. Watch the tape and tell me where he sucks? For a frame of reference, look at what North Dakota State did in beating an 8-5 Kansas State team the previous year with Jensen at QB, and look what Bill Snyder had to say to him afterwards. I'll post again in regards to your original post about him.
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Not sold on anyone but I still see #1 Lynch #2 Goff and #3 Wentz
Lynch greatest upside, I think he is a mid first prospect upside could push him into top 10. I love the kid and I dont want to take a QB top 10 but if i do he is my choice.
Goff lowest floor and again is in that 2nd wave of talent will be top 5 on some boards depending upon system. west coast teams will love this kid.
Wentz has a lot of tools i really like but that long bend that slows him down concerns me and the level of competition is of great concern. I hear people say well he had low level receivers to go against those low level corners but the game at that level is just at a much s;lower speed. The windows are much bigger and he has time. I saw it in the senior bowl. Not saying he isnt gonna be a good QB but he is a higher risk player and is more of end of first early 2nd type player than someone you would take at 2.
What did you see at the Senior Bowl? I saw a guy put the ball under pressure where it was supposed to be and the receivers dropped it. He was head and shoulders above the other QBs (from big name brand schools) there. It didn't seem to big or fast for him. He was playing with players he'd been with for less than a week, so he didn't have a lot of chemistry to fall back on. He was in a brand new system. What bigger windows and more time are you seeing in his film? I see him under pressure a lot. The field's the same size and he's fitting the ball where it needs to go with defenders within arm's length of his receivers. I think the difference between FCS and DI is much smaller than between College and the pro's in general. I see Lynch as a bigger risk. Didn't play in a pro-style offense. Don't like as much off the field. I see Goff as a lower potential reward. Doesn't seem the best fit for Hue's system. I project him as an Alex Smith type guy. What long bend are you referring to?
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jc
Haven't read this thread or anything on this board lately. Just saw two of his games and wanted to share my take. One game from 2014 at Iowa St and the Jax St game this past season. Here's what I saw:
Pros:
- the arm, touch and accuracy are already all well above average behind a dominant FCS line
- makes very good decisions. Is not too protective and not too risky with the ball. Good balance. with a wide margin for error agains FCS-level DBs. A lot of those out routes he connected on to covered receivers are pick sixes in the NFL.
- football smart. Knows down and distance. this is coaching and playcalling. Also help when you have all day to throw.
- very competitive and fearless. Natural leader
- very athletic, can run and isn't afraid of hits but he won't be bouncing off of defensive tackles and linebackers in the NFL, which was a major part of his success running in FCS. He's not running away from NFL DEs.
- uncanny pocket presence, keeps eyes downfield, feels pressure and steps up again, dominant OL. He faced one potential NFL pass rusher in Tyrone Holmes this season and Holmes was a major factor affecting him. He's a Day 3 guy, too.
Cons:
None. I'm serious. This guy has it ALL. when he's facing future YMCA basketballers.
I didn't expect much. All I read is that there's no franchise QB available. This guy is 1-1 material and the only question for the Browns should be if they have to trade up to get him or stay at 2 and select him.
Again, I don't know how he will do in the Pros, but really what he's shown at the FCS level on the team he was on I have no confidence to say he can continue / replicate the success in the NFL. If I'm considering an FCS QB with a top 5 pick, I don't want a guy whose team went 8-0 and made it to the national championship without him. JMO.
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It's somewhat funny that you nit-pick his mostly good placed out routes and other tight window throws where you can clearly see he knows WHERE to put them. Some low throws on comeback routes or some touch throws to receivers over the top that were pure coverage read throws. To me, that's showing confidence and football smartness. You're seeing NFL pick sixes. Maybe you're right, we will see.
What's ironic about it is that you and others excused Manziel's moronic bravado in college while THOSE were obvious turnovers in the NFL. Running around and then throwing hail marys to Evans didn't quite work out in pro ball and I was one of a few on here to point it out pre-draft. Oh, and it seems Evans and the OL talent made Manziel, not vice versa. Another argument that didn't count back then, but now does with regards to Wentz.
In light of that, your benchmark for projecting NFL pick sixes and overall ability is interesting
Last edited by DjangoBrown; 02/18/16 03:44 PM.
#gmstrong
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I have made zero comments about Osweiler.
The reason is simple: I don't believe he will leave Denver.
I liked him a little in college. Thought he was worth a third round gamble.
Outside of a few plays I have not even seen much of him as a pro. So, really I have no take on him.
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A couple things about Lynch.
This is not a rap on him but the offense that he ran at Memphis was a single option read run offense.
He threw a ton of bubble screens. He was a major part of run option, as a runner. He was rarely asked to make NFL type throws that require him to be under center, drop back, read, and throw into tight windows.
Again, not his fault. However, he has the longest way to go as far as adjusting to the NFL. In addition he has a longer delivery than Wentz which means a slower release.
He could develop into a very good quarterback but it will require time. He has some tools and is a good athlete. I know very little about his character, leadership, and overall football mental capabilities. My opinion is I believe Wentz is further along than Lynch.
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It's somewhat funny that you nit-pick his mostly good placed out routes and other tight window throws where you can clearly see he knows WHERE to put them. Some low throws on comeback routes or some touch throws to receivers over the top that were pure coverage read throws. To me, that's showing confidence and football smartness. You're seeing NFL pick sixes. Maybe you're right, we will see.
What's ironic about it is that you and others excused Manziel's moronic bravado in college while THOSE were obvious turnovers in the NFL. Running around and then throwing hail marys to Evans didn't quite work out in pro ball and I was one of a few on here to point it out pre-draft. Oh, and it seems Evans and the OL talent made Manziel, not vice versa. Another argument that didn't count back then, but now does with regards to Wentz.
In light of that, your benchmark for projecting NFL pick sixes and overall ability is interesting they were well-placed, yes. I agree. But FCS football is done at NFL walkthrough pace. Northern Iowa ain't Alabama. And Manziel's problems were primarily off the field, not on the field. He has the ability on the field when his head is on straight (which it may never be again.) Like I said... I am not saying Wentz can't succeed at the NFL level. I'm saying that in the environment he was in, where he was basically the QB of the IMG Academy of the FCS, it's impossible for me to say if he can still be good when it's not Globetrotters vs. Generals. Does it really not concern you that he boarded the 3-year championship train and rode it for a couple years and they didn't miss a beat when he was out for 8 games? I sure as heck do. Do you have any doubts they will win again next year? I don't. Due to the playoffs, NDSU had the unusual situation of playing the same team (Montana) twice this year. They beat them once and lost to them once. Wentz started at QB for the Bison when they lost, and Stick started for them when they won. Granted, they lost @ Montana and won at home vs. the Griz. But where is the transcendant talent? Where is the lifting of the team to higher levels? I guess I have some of the same concerns about Wentz that I have had about QBs in the past that come from perennial winners. How is he going to react when suddenly he's not winning all the time? When he has to overcome a team that's better than his? How is his footwork going to change when the pass rush is there. How is his decision making going to change when the routes are more complex? How is his accuracy going to change when his receivers and the DBs covering them are faster? He certainly didn't look like a first rounder at the Senior Bowl. Granted that's only one thrown-together game, but that's the point. There's no meaningful evidence of his success in my opinion. If this was a QB from Illinois State who had his team 5-0, he gets injured and is out for four games and they go 1-3, then he comes back and gets them to the FCS semifinals or something like that, then we have something to talk about. But instead, we have a QB that had the 4-time reigning champs 4-2, he gets injured and they go 8-0, he comes back and they win the title while he goes 16/29 for 197 yards, 1 TD, and 2 INTs. If he's such a great QB, and we already know he has the best talent in his pool around him, then why isn't he dominating at the FCS level? Why was he so easily replaceable? Why did he average under 240 yards passing per game? I know NDSU likes to run and has always liked to run, but if you really have a top 5 pick type player, why are you not using him as such? Just too many question marks for me to be able to say "yeah, this is the top guy." JMO of course.
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jc
Haven't read this thread or anything on this board lately. Just saw two of his games and wanted to share my take. One game from 2014 at Iowa St and the Jax St game this past season. Here's what I saw:
Pros:
- the arm, touch and accuracy are already all well above average behind a dominant FCS line
- makes very good decisions. Is not too protective and not too risky with the ball. Good balance. with a wide margin for error agains FCS-level DBs. A lot of those out routes he connected on to covered receivers are pick sixes in the NFL.
- football smart. Knows down and distance. this is coaching and playcalling. Also help when you have all day to throw.
- very competitive and fearless. Natural leader
- very athletic, can run and isn't afraid of hits but he won't be bouncing off of defensive tackles and linebackers in the NFL, which was a major part of his success running in FCS. He's not running away from NFL DEs.
- uncanny pocket presence, keeps eyes downfield, feels pressure and steps up again, dominant OL. He faced one potential NFL pass rusher in Tyrone Holmes this season and Holmes was a major factor affecting him. He's a Day 3 guy, too.
Cons:
None. I'm serious. This guy has it ALL. when he's facing future YMCA basketballers.
I didn't expect much. All I read is that there's no franchise QB available. This guy is 1-1 material and the only question for the Browns should be if they have to trade up to get him or stay at 2 and select him.
Again, I don't know how he will do in the Pros, but really what he's shown at the FCS level on the team he was on I have no confidence to say he can continue / replicate the success in the NFL. If I'm considering an FCS QB with a top 5 pick, I don't want a guy whose team went 8-0 and made it to the national championship without him. JMO. So you're saying you're taking all the players who played on good teams out of your draft rankings? Jack's Bruins won some games without him, can't pick him. I'm not being serious, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. I think you are overestimating NDSU's o-line. He was under pressure a lot. He made his oline look better than it was by avoiding sacks and keeping plays alive. Jerry Rice, Steve McNair, Flacco, Romo- if your skills translate, it doesn't matter who you were playing against in college. Which specific outroutes were pick sixes? His ball placement looks pretty good on a large number of them. Montana is a pretty good program, and Wentz did put up 4 TDs in the first half. He led another TD drive in the second half. There was a fumble on a zone read play which he'll hopefully never run in the pros. He wasn't the reason they lost. I'm not seeing how Holmes really affected him. You're using a QB leading his team to 5 TDs as a negative?
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So you're saying you're taking all the players who played on good teams out of your draft rankings? Jack's Bruins won some games without him, can't pick him. I'm not being serious, but I'm trying to illustrate a point. Then what is the point? I think you are overestimating NDSU's o-line. He was under pressure a lot. He made his oline look better than it was by avoiding sacks and keeping plays alive. I disagree. Their OL has year after year been the best in the FCS, which is evidenced by the success of their running game. Remember Billy Turner? He was an absolute monster at NDSU. He completely dominated every player he faced. He pushed his man out of the frame more plays than not. Now, he's still fighting for a spot as a guard on the Dolphins' weak interior OL. The level of defenders at the FCS level is a completely different thing and shouldn't even be compared to NFL potential prospects. The FCS has two offensive tackles rated in the top 200 by CBS in this draft, and Haeg is the highest of all of them. He did avoid sacks when he held the ball too long for sure. He didn't have to worry about holding the ball too long because he's going up against 240 pound DTs and 5.0 40 DEs.[/quote] Jerry Rice, Steve McNair, Flacco, Romo- if your skills translate, it doesn't matter who you were playing against in college. And I touched on this. But the point is, when you are talking about an FCS player as a first rounder, let alone a top 5 pick, show me where you elevated the level of your team with your personal performance. Which specific outroutes were pick sixes? His ball placement looks pretty good on a large number of them. I'm not going to go back and rewatch to point out the specific throws, but he completed a lot of contested routes on the sidelines, and my point was that if he throws those balls in NFL situations, they could easily be pick 6s. Maybe he can complete those passes at the higher speed of the NFL, but things that look impressive with FCS competition don't say that he can do those same things at the NFL level. That's my point. We know he can make those plays at FCS level, and that's part of what makes us like what he can do, but can he maintain that accuracy at NFL speeds? We have no idea. We don't even have a close approximation. Montana is a pretty good program, and Wentz did put up 4 TDs in the first half. He led another TD drive in the second half. There was a fumble on a zone read play which he'll hopefully never run in the pros. He wasn't the reason they lost. I'm not seeing how Holmes really affected him. You're using a QB leading his team to 5 TDs as a negative? I watched this game and Holmes made major problems for the whole offense. He did cause problems for Wentz. I can't speak to the stats but it was a significant factor. And again, the point wasn't to so much show it as a negative, but the fact is how great can you show that you are at the FCS level, especially at a critical position like quarterback, when your team is no worse off without you?
Last edited by clevesteve; 02/18/16 04:36 PM.
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they were well-placed, yes. I agree. But FCS football is done at NFL walkthrough pace. Northern Iowa ain't Alabama.
And Manziel's problems were primarily off the field, not on the field. He has the ability on the field when his head is on straight (which it may never be again.)
Like I said... I am not saying Wentz can't succeed at the NFL level. I'm saying that in the environment he was in, where he was basically the QB of the IMG Academy of the FCS, it's impossible for me to say if he can still be good when it's not Globetrotters vs. Generals.
Does it really not concern you that he boarded the 3-year championship train and rode it for a couple years and they didn't miss a beat when he was out for 8 games? I sure as heck do. Do you have any doubts they will win again next year? I don't.
Due to the playoffs, NDSU had the unusual situation of playing the same team (Montana) twice this year. They beat them once and lost to them once. Wentz started at QB for the Bison when they lost, and Stick started for them when they won. Granted, they lost @ Montana and won at home vs. the Griz. But where is the transcendant talent? Where is the lifting of the team to higher levels?
I guess I have some of the same concerns about Wentz that I have had about QBs in the past that come from perennial winners. How is he going to react when suddenly he's not winning all the time? When he has to overcome a team that's better than his? How is his footwork going to change when the pass rush is there. How is his decision making going to change when the routes are more complex? How is his accuracy going to change when his receivers and the DBs covering them are faster? He certainly didn't look like a first rounder at the Senior Bowl. Granted that's only one thrown-together game, but that's the point. There's no meaningful evidence of his success in my opinion.
If this was a QB from Illinois State who had his team 5-0, he gets injured and is out for four games and they go 1-3, then he comes back and gets them to the FCS semifinals or something like that, then we have something to talk about. But instead, we have a QB that had the 4-time reigning champs 4-2, he gets injured and they go 8-0, he comes back and they win the title while he goes 16/29 for 197 yards, 1 TD, and 2 INTs.
If he's such a great QB, and we already know he has the best talent in his pool around him, then why isn't he dominating at the FCS level? Why was he so easily replaceable? Why did he average under 240 yards passing per game? I know NDSU likes to run and has always liked to run, but if you really have a top 5 pick type player, why are you not using him as such?
Just too many question marks for me to be able to say "yeah, this is the top guy."
JMO of course.
As far as the Montana games, the problem with your thinking is that Wentz doesn't play defense. The Grizz scored 38 in the regular season and 6 in the play offs. The D stepped up when Wentz went down. They wanted to send him out a winner. Wentz worked his tail off helping make the back up QB ready. He was dominating at the FCS level. He won 2 National Championships. In the Montana game he had 4 TDs and no INTs. His numbers weren't great in the Championship, but you have to put it in context. It was against the 2nd best team in the FCS, and it was his first game back after a long absence due to surgery on his throwing wrist. You also failed to mention his 79 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs.
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Two things:
1. If Wentz' game with the bad stats was the Jax St game I watched (and I suspect it was) then I have great news to you: this game was the reason I liked him even better. College stats are almost meaningless. Jarvis Jones had 579 sacks in college, I watched his tape and said he sucks at rushing the passer. Guess what he does in the NFL? Yep, not getting to the QB. Same with Orchard and there are hundreds of college QBs with great stats that never sniffed a NFL roster. College stats are as useless as anything to predict future NFL success. I hope our new FO is into a more sophisticated kind of analytics. Crunching numbers won't do it in the NFL, that's why I'm skeptical about our new structure, but that's another thread
2. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it was pretty obvious that Manziel simply lacked the ability to play at the NFL level. The off field crap, which Stevie Wonder could have seen coming too btw, just helps apologizing those who have whiffed big time on him.
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The D stepped up when Wentz went down. They wanted to send him out a winner. NDSU scored 32 points per game with Wentz and 37 points per game without him this year. He was dominating at the FCS level. He won 2 National Championships. Brock Jensen won 3 national championships at the FCS level and he wasn't dominating. If your team, specifically your unit, doesn't have a major drop-off without you, you are not dominating. Three of those eight games without Wentz were playoff games. It's not like they hit a patch of (FCS) cupcake games for two months while Wentz was out. I hope everyone who is saying we should spend the number two overall pick on Wentz realizes that his FCS team didn't miss him at all from an output standpoint when he was out for two months of the season.
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Weeden ate too many sacks. Had he just gotten rid of, not in the Flipper manner, he could have helped himself and our field position. Mobile as a fireplug.
No perfect world for us. Plug this hole as best you can and work on some other nasty problems.
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I think you are overestimating NDSU's o-line. He was under pressure a lot. He made his oline look better than it was by avoiding sacks and keeping plays alive
Damn. I had high hopes for you. But, you are just another guy who makes things up.
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I think you are overestimating NDSU's o-line. He was under pressure a lot. He made his oline look better than it was by avoiding sacks and keeping plays alive
Damn. I had high hopes for you. But, you are just another guy who makes things up. How much of his film have you watched, Vers? He got moved off his spot a lot. Put Weeden behind that line and he'd have been sacked 50 times (I made that 50 up). Wentz is good at feeling and avoiding pressure.
Strengths
Tall with an athletic, proportional build that is made for the NFL position. Played in a pro-Âstyle attack with plenty of snaps under center. Asked to make NFL throws and showed he could do it. Stands tall in the pocket and delivers with a relatively high release point. Keeps ball high and tight in the pocket and can uncork it quickly with tight, sharp release and little wasted motion. Throws catchable ball with tight spiral. Naturally accurate passer. Sees lurking linebackers underneath and throws receivers open to safest spot in the passing window. Able to change arm slots and still throw a strike. Has plus deep ball accuracy and touch. Calm in pocket and has no problems sitting in and taking a hit to complete a pass. Excelled in structured passing attack that required him to read the entire field. Has athleticism to escape pressure and hurt defenses with his legs. Already able to feel pressure on the edges and slide around in pocket without dropping his eyes. Adept in play-Âaction game at selling fakes and quickly finding safeties to help determine where to go with the ball. Intelligent with long list of academic achievements. Should be able to process and handle an NFL playbook quickly. Can play pitch and catch all day long against zone coverage.
I look up a scouting report from NFL.com, and they see what I see. Yet, I'm the one making things up? I've watched every cut up of the guy on Draftbreakdown multiple times. Watched other peoples' analysis of that film. Watched the Senior Bowl practices and game. Read every scouting report I can find. Watched every interview I could find. Is there risk there? Of course, but I've put in the time so don't try to tell me I'm making things up. I like the guy as a prospect. I like the fit with Hue's philosophy. I like the intangibles. Don't agree fine, but don't attack me for it.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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... I've put in the time ... It certainly seems like you have. Never apologize for having a well-researched opinion...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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