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But isn't the final goal for you to be successful and equal?

Violence will not lead you to your goal. It is a matter of percentages in my view...

When 13 people try to violently change the thinking of a group of 87 others, it will most likely end in 5 people talking peace with 80 others.

We can do better.

49, bro, you know I agree with you. Ive never advocated violence as a viable answer to this race problem. You known me 10 years now and hopefully you back me up on that statement.

And hey look, I said the leaders of the BLM need to step up and condem this action. It just isn't right whatsoever.

But even you had said it before: there's a boiling point where people just get fed up. And once again, I'm not saying it's right, but when people get fed up, there's no telling what's gonna happen after that.

And people are just fed up bro.

Why is it that we have to do all the conforming?

Why is it that y'all can freely tell us to get over the Jim Crow laws, the civil rights movement, and slavery, but y'all won't tell the Jewish people to get over the holocaust?

Why is it that you guys show more sympathy for Jewish people that aren't even on the same continent than for blacks who are American citizens?

America bends over backwards for Israel, but we won't bend over backwards to make sure blacks are treated equally under the law? Or own citizens? And that's for any minority, including females.

We will fight to the death in the Middle East, but won't fight to the death to make sure flint Michigan has clean water? Or kids in Chicago aren't dying in the streets?

Whites have freely integrated into OUR culture. We gave y'all rap, rock n roll, jazz, blues, urban culture. Welcomed y'all with open arms.

Yet when we try to integrate in your culture, there's a MASSIVE wall in our way. We gotta battle the cops, the justice system, voter ID laws, Gerry meandering, all this crap.

We have to go above and beyond just to have a SHOT at integration.

Yet the moment somebody slips up, somehow, it's an incitement on the entire black community!

That's why we throw the baseless generalizations in y'all faces, cause we're fed up bending over backwards for y'all, yet making very little progress.

People tell us all the time to go back to Africa, so we tell y'all to go back to Europe in response.

Y'all tell us to stop murderingeach other, we tell y'all to stop killing your kids and claiming to be crazy.

DC wants to tell me to pull my pants up? Will do, right after he tells his white friends to stop molesting kids.

What is to stop acting ghetto? Will do, right after you tel, your kids to stop shooting up schools

You see how baseless those generalizations are? That's how we feel when y'all generalize us. I don't sag my pants, and I use proper English while speaking.

People are just sick and tired bro. We got politicians that care more about the Middle East than the welfare of its own citizens.

We got people dying in the streets, but instead of talking about ways to better the community, the first response is "don't take my guns".

I can go on and on, but I'll stop.

It tells you a lot about our state of race relations in this country, when we finally get the first black president, yet the race relations somehow got worse. I'm scared to see what happens when we finally get the first woman president, whoever that may be.

Let me take this a bit at a time. You done posted a mouthful!

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49, bro, you know I agree with you. Ive never advocated violence as a viable answer to this race problem. You known me 10 years now and hopefully you back me up on that statement.
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First of all, I ain't no 49, I am 40! and yes, I back you up for I have never seen you call for violence. Angry yes, violent no.

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And hey look, I said the leaders of the BLM need to step up and condem this action. It just isn't right whatsoever.

But even you had said it before: there's a boiling point where people just get fed up. And once again, I'm not saying it's right, but when people get fed up, there's no telling what's gonna happen after that.

And people are just fed up bro.

Why is it that we have to do all the conforming?
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I agree BLM needs to come down hard on this or any violence attributed to their organization. People can not hear when they are scared.
I understand the "Boiling Point", we have reached that point between you and me over the years but we always knew there was a Ref in the bushes waiting to pounce. We can not get our points across if we are locked out. There is no choice but NOT to boil.

As far a conforming is concerned, this is the great melting pot of people from all over the world, come together to have some freedom, raise our families as we please, worship as we believe and make a profit while getting to keep most of it.

The Melting Pot part of it is we have to change some of our ways in order to blend into the melt. We have the freedom to live like Africans or Pols or Scottish or Germans etc. but if we don't change some things about ourselves, we will be left on the outside of American Society, looking thru the windows, wondering what makes those people inside think they are so great. We can proudly keep our identities and hold them dear but we also have to let go of some things to melt so we can prosper.

Make any sense so far?

To imply most military members WANT to be deployed is wrong...ops tempo has been a major problem....you could have been a contractor and made the "big bucks" if you'd passed all requirements....stating a Lts only reason to safeguard troops is demeaning of his/her responsibilities...sure you could have done better job making policies and ensuring mission accomplishment, light up another.

so far, so good.

my only comment is that it seems like blacks have to most of the conforming. it should be 50/50.

hell ill take 60/40, but right now it's more 90/10.

you might not think it's significant, but one thing you gotta realize is that you guys know you're german, irish, whatever. y'all had a set of values prior to coming over here.

bruh, the majority of blacks still don't know what country in africa we are from. we didn't have a culture or a value system to look back on. the only culture we have known since coming to america is the culture of violence and submission.

so blacks resist because we created our own culture; it's the only one we got.

it's just what i observed.

when you talk to active duty soldiers about deploying to fight terrorism, you get the same drone responses.

when you talk to a soldier about the all the extra bread they will make, their eyes light up.

it's not everybody, but you need to realize bro, in the 70's, 80', 90's, people joined the military because it was some serious patriotic stuff. it was a huge deal. sure, some joined because it was no other option, but you literally had blood lines of military families in.

in the 2000's, people join the military because it's either that or be homeless. my last year of service, we had to do this detail and drop off supplies to a basic training unit in the field.

i never seen so many people with master's degrees in the military in my life. so many people had degrees, but joined the military because they couldn't find jobs in their fields.

it isn't wrong, it's just a perspective that people aren't comfortable with hearing.

Yes and no.. Those who have/had the money, got to make the rules.

I understand your argument, but you are studying supply chain management... you have shown an interest in international business... if you get into international business, you will be working with people from all over the world, each country has it's own set of professional standards, you will have to ( or you should ) familiarize yourself with them and follow them. In some countries a handshake is required, in other countries it's not. Some countries, a suit, other countries more casual... in parts of Asia they have very specific rules about bowing and passing business cards. These rules, just like ours, were developed by the folks with money down through the decades. You can fight it if you want. You can meet with the President of Mitsubishi and walk in wearing an Adidas sweatsuit and go for the chest bump if you want... let me know how that goes.

When Swish, Inc. moves into the Fortune 500, you can run it however you want, hire whoever you want, blast hiphop through the corporate HQ if you want.. nobody can stop you. You just better hope your clients are on-board with it.


How is wearing decent clothes and speaking English correctly contradictory to this culture you have developed? MLK did it... that's one of the reasons he was so successful in attracting white people to his cause.

you seem to be mixing corporate standards with what people do in their off time.

thats why i don't agree with you.

Most corporate people don't care what you do in your off time... and yes, I thought we were talking about business success, getting ahead, keeping people down... that's corporate.

even if it's related, to suggest that the majority of us sag our pants, speaking ghetto and such, it's pretty sad, especially coming from you, who i thought at least understood the struggle somewhat.

whatever man.

I have to say Swish, for someone who wishes equality, creating your own culture does seem to indicate you want things divided.

And that's where I see a lot of the problem. Communication and interaction are the ingredients of understanding. If a part of society decides to use slang to disrupt communication, if they refuse to use proper English to communicate, they've done more to separate themselves from others than to include themselves in real conversation.

I find it unrealistic to claim to have your own sub culture and just think society as a whole should be expected to cater to that.

I've admitted I don't understand the struggle because I've never lived it... I at least try to understand it.

And I never meant to suggest that the majority sag pants and speak ghetto... that's why so many are in college, getting degrees, getting jobs, moving on with their lives...

This all started over your rant about how "all white people" feel about "all black people"... and somehow it ended up here. So if we are talking about 2 different things, please, let me know. I'm actually enjoying the dialogue.

Ok then, look around you, the rules and duties needed to conform are all around you. Pick the ones you know you will need to succeed and keep your traditions that are dear to you.

You know, we White folks were not born knowing the system, we had to learn it and conform!

Like table manners, Mom taught us the manners and setup of the dinner table as she said, "You kids hate it now but if you are ever invited to eat with the President, you will know how!"

It sucked, having to conform, but I can't tell you how many times I was able to sit, relax, and talk with the high and mighty without worrying which was my salad fork and which bread or glass of wine was mine! Thanks Mom.

It is also a generational thing.. kids in their late teens and early twenties of every generation have always thought they are going to break the norms, they are going to do it their own way, they don't have to conform... this isn't specific to black kids, it's pretty consistent among most kids.

And things do change... how many people wear a tie to work any more on a daily basis? That used to be expected in almost all office jobs, now the vast majority wear a polo shirt unless they have an important meeting... Even many of the lawyers I work with don't wear a tie very often... Office hours are changing to more flexible hours, working at home is more possible with technology... a lot of this is being driven by millennials... you just have to pick your battles, you aren't going to change it all in one generation.

Yes, change is good and we need those who change things...

But...

It really helps to comfortably know those rules before you go changing them.

People today gots that internets thang and can learn more than Mom and Dad ever dreamed of knowing in their lives.

My kids are millennials and they know their stuff. They are also changing things no matter how much I yell.

Corporate time vs off time....other ethnic groups had standards...all we got is violence and bigotry/racism.

JMHO, we are ALL racist. Look at people and who they associate with NORMALLY-blacks with blacks, whites with whites, asians with asians, we-Americans- like to say we are great melting pot....we are, BUT within that melting pot most races seek the people who look like them. And that's normal.

Blacks came to America as slaves, the white man opressed them....true fact, however, when does the reason for failure stop being because of white people...how many generations must pass. The USA has tried lots of things to level the field- education, law changes, reverse discrimination, supplied housing, medical care....on and on.
Swish, as an x-NCO you took all those Race Relations classes, diversity teaching...etc...yet you wrote about making sure "your BROTHERS" didn't lose money...did you have same feelings for white brothers.....cultural differences, there are plenty...70s brothers doing the dap...what a waste of time, black rap- your words, violence- calling your love ones- bitches/whores,...just what everyone wants to hear.

This is not politically correct- Black Lives Matter, true, but I want to see the black community- lawyers, doctors, CLERGY men, etc march in the streets saying stop killing each other....check out murder stats, black on black crime is HUGE....invoking MLK is great, but please don't forget his total message...man based not on the color of his skin but on CHARACTER/content of his/her life....black culture needs to stop pointing fingers and step up to the plate and fix some things....JMHO that doesn't include using drug use as your personal flag, unless you're making a counter culture statement....as an NCO, how'd you do on your drug testing.
Lastly, after my military career, I taught in public school system for awhile....funny/ on TRAGIC black kids use the N word ALL the time, but if white kid uses the term look out....racism for sure.....all the best.

when i refer to my brothers, that meant my brothers in arms, which is everybody, including women.

i now understand that i have to be completely literal on this board now.

Kind of reminds me of "HIPPIES" of the 60's they were always stereotyped police picking on them for the way they dressed spoke and their nonconforming ways...Easy Rider" a good example and after all was said and done most ended up being what they fought so hard not to be.

This got me thinking. A number of years ago, someone forwarded me my family "tree". (without the footnotes, if is 320 pages). It lists just my dad's side. My son, me, dad, grandpa, etc. Well, it also lists everyone else - BUT, just from my dad's side, if that makes sense.

Including my son, it's 7 generations.

I'll start with Christian, who would've been my great great great grandpa. He was born in 1798, in Switzerland. (he came to the u.s. with his wife and 2 kids in 1833 on a ship named "Freidonia". (they had more kids once here.)

Then, his son Gottlieb - born in Switzerland, was my great great grandpa.

His son Henry was my great grandpa.

His son verden was my grandpa.

His son Dean is my dad.



And on one hand, that's sad.

On the other hand, me knowing at least that my great great great grandpa was from Switzerland doesn't change.

Just my opinion - but I'm not Swiss American. And further, I'd have to somehow trace my mom's side back also to see exactly "what I am".

But, as neat as I think it is to know where at least 1 of my greats came from, I can empathize with those of ANY race/background on "we don't know".

I get that.



I don't get this, though. I don't follow why "what culture you came from" determines your culture now. That's just me I guess. I mean, if your 6 generations ago grandfather was from Kenya, or Egypt, or Switzerland, would that make you a different person today? Not trying to be a jerk, just asking.



And your culture probably isn't different than mine. Like I said, 5 generations before me, the guy was born in Switzerland, had 2 kids there, moved to the u.s. in 1833 - and everyone of the rest of us were born here, and were born American, and are American.


I just want to run these names again:

Christian
Gottlieb
Henry
Verden
Dean
Me
My son

Sorry for blathering on - your post got me to thinking. I can follow 1 blood line back 218 years. (when Christian was born)

you missed the part where i stated that we also welcomed you guys into our culture as well.

so it isn't all exclusive.

this is why i feel like i get nowhere with yall on this board. i specifically stated that we created our own culture, and then WELCOMED you guys into it with open arms, but that it's not the same vise versa.

we don't have to be the same person to be together. but maybe i'm the only one who gets that.

Swish, I don't want to be part of your culture, I got my own!
I can understand your culture, I can accept and respect your culture, But I can't be part of it any more than I can expect you to Don a Kilt like in my culture and like it. It ain't you!

I conform to society because it makes me successful and I keep some of my traditions from my heritage because it makes me proud.

You will never see me in a Kilt but on those nights when the wife is in the mood for "The Barbarian", look out!

First, I would disagree that there is ONE black culture... just as I would disagree that there is ONE white culture... I play basketball with some inner city Raleigh black kids and I have upper middle class black friends with kids who live on my street... they are vastly different in the way they dress and speak. They share some similarities but they are different. Just like a white hillbilly from West Virginia and a white socialite from Charleston, SC are going to be vastly different. Their ideas of "culture" are going to be completely different.

But I'm curious how blacks welcomed whites into "their" culture but whites didn't do the same..

The problem with that is, the slangs used change so often and so much, I can't keep up with it all. That's why I say that communication is purposefully being made more difficult.

We're friends on FB and I enjoy a lot of your posts. I don't feel separate in any way. But I do find some of the comments hard to understand and confusing at times. I'm simply stating what I see from my point of view.

When it becomes continually confusing to communicate because someone decided to start using so much slang they become hard to understand, it doesn't feel welcoming, it feels divisive.

my comments are a lot different from FB than it is on here because, unfortunately, look at the demographic i deal with on here compared to FB.

on FB, i have pretty much everybody from everywhere.

40, YTown, and Razor would especially get a kick out of this: i have a very good friend, Aziz, who preaches christianity in Pakistan. i think that's pretty cool. but yea, i personally know at least a handful of people from every continent except of course antarctica.

but anyway, on FB, i'm trying to get my black friends to realize that the trap life isn't smart, and that you can't blame white people because you can't pay your bills on time.

on HERE, i'm constantly having to explain to people that we're not all ghetto and violent.

i battle on here, on my timeline, on Right wing News page, on Being liberal page, everything.

i'm trying to get people into the middle. am i successful? dunno, but i feel the need to try. that's why my presence is growing on social media, and i'm trying to make sure i put out vids and such on a regular basis.

i know you already know this Pit, but contrary to popular belief on this board most likely, no, Swish isn't racist, he doesn't want white people to burn in hell, and he isn't angry.

i'm just a guy trying to make you guys look at thing from a perspective you never considered before. that's it.

Just don't go all "kanye" on us.

Zuckenburg won't give me a bill, bro. won't even bother asking him lol

And he's not giving the dimwit a dollar either.

$53 million in personal debt, asking for a billion.........all cause he's a self proclaimed artist? And how does his "art" contribute to society?

Not asking you - just saying.

I understand Swish and I believe I am very much in the middle. 40 calls it fence riding and I call it being Independent. I'm not beholden to one ideology or party. In other words, I don't kiss a$$ or follow some political master.

he has no reason too. the guy has had all the money in the world, and blew it on what?

i'll tell you what, a 30 million dollar wedding. i don't even know what all you can do with 30 million dollar budget for a freaking wedding.

but, to be fair Arch, and i know you aren't into urban fashion like that, but Kanye's shoes, Yeezy's, are already legendary foot wear. it's really important, because its the first time a black artists' shoe apparel have been this internationally dominant.

that's a big deal. them things are always sold out.

Eh, kanye is legendary in his own mind, and, maybe in the minds of idiots that think buying his junk is going to improve their lives.

This simple fact, that kanye thinks he's the worlds best artist, is enough for me to .......wait, I never bought a song or a piece of clothing from the man.

He's got an ego problem, and apparently a financial problem.

And, anyone that gets an ego boost from buying his clothing needs counseling.

What has kanye done with his "artistry", other than serve himself?

And further, his shoes can't be "legendary". How long have they been out? What is "legendary" about them? Do they tell a story?

Do his shoes help people beneath him? Or does he rack up millions in putting his name on them - millions, that go to him. So he can squander the money, and then beg for more money?

Kanye an "artist"? Please.

i could explain why they are important, again, but i feel you already have your mind made up.

Yeah, I do have my mind made up. His shoes aren't "legendary". No item of footwear or clothing is "legendary". I understand some people make a boatload of money off of shoes (jordan comes to mind), but they aren't "legendary".

Maybe a hot commodity - for kanye - for a year? Maybe 2?

He's a money whore who's run out of money. Apparently. I might also suggest he doesn't give a rats tail about the people that buy his stuff - he just wants their money........which he apparently can't handle.

Legend? Nah. Scam artist? Definitely.

But, go ahead and tell me how his shoes or his clothing is "legendary". I'll listen.

obviously you are incapable of listening to the argument i'll put forth since you clearly stated you already have your mind made up.

[quote=Swish

but, to be fair Arch, and i know you aren't into urban fashion like that, but Kanye's shoes, Yeezy's, are already legendary foot wear. it's really important, because its the first time a black artists' shoe apparel have been this internationally dominant. [/quote]



I missed this part. My bad.

I'm going to toss out 1 name: Michael Jordan.

Jordan OWNS dominance in shoes and apparel. Believe it or not, he's also black.

And get this - Jordan dominates not because he's black, he dominates because he resonates with ALL people. You know, doing that corporate thing - adhering to the unwritten rules of "salesmanship".

Kanye is a punk, and he likes it. Jordan was a star, and he embellished it.

Exactly what is "legendary" about this: http://www.adidas.com/yeezy

Or this: http://www.amazon.com/Adidas-Men-Yeezy-Boost-350/dp/B010O2FZRG

$1700 to $3600? For a pair of shoes?

Dang man, if people are even fans of his, they best get their head checked. He's the king of failing at self promotion. He's the king of thinking he makes a difference in the country/world. He's the king of being so self centered he doesn't even have a clue.

i think you also missed the part where i said black artist, like a musician.

Jordan isn't a musician. he's an athlete. it's easy for superstars like him to have elite shoes. you played ball, you know how popular J's are.

and his shoes are legendary.

Just like the lebron's. they are either starting to get, or are already in elite status. i dunno if they will be legendary one day, though.

kanye's shoes are legendary because, as i said, it's the first time a black artist has had a iron grip on footwear on an international scale. I'm trying to think of a black artist that even came remotely close, and the only ones i can think of is 50 cent's G-Unit apparel. but they barely cracked elite category, and that was only from like 03-06.

Kanye's shoes go that much on the market right now because they are sold out, Arch. if you can manage to buy them from the store, they don't cost that much. but since they are sold out all the time, people are ponying up thousands for them, almost like collectables.

you're not gonna get any argument from me that he's punk, entitled, a douche, etc. i agree with all that.

but that doesn't change the fact that as far as urban culture and fashion goes, the Yeezy's are already legendary.

his clothing line, not so much.

I think the issue is that you both see the word legendary in a much different light. I can't fathom clothing or shoes as having any value that would label them as legendary.

To me, that would equate more to things like The Flying Tigers of WW2 or the Tuskegee Airmen. I believe Arch and my generation in general, holds the term legendary to a much higher value than clothing.

I would venture to say that 20 years from now, the shoe line Kanye sells will be a distant memory. To me, that doesn't rise to legendary status.

Are Kanye's shoes legendary? I honestly don't know but I'm skeptical because I do not know anybody in real life who has owned them or even talked about them. Contrast that to the Jordan line where I've know many people (self included, when I was younger anyway) who have bought and worn them.

In fact I had never even heard of the Yeezy line until a couple days ago when I read about it on here and did a little research. It very well might be a big thing and I just haven't heard about them because I'm getting older and I'm not cool anymore... if I ever was.

How many pairs of Yeezy shoes has Kanye sold? What's the annual revenue?