DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft The Browns Defense

I realize that many posters ONLY want to talk about the quarterbacks and ignore every other position on the field, but here are some facts:

The Browns defense:

--Gave up 30 or more pts. in 8 of the 16 games last year.

--Ranked 29th in scoring defense.

--Ranked 27th in total yards.

--Ranked 22nd against the pass.

--Ranked 30th against the run.

--Accumulated only 29 sacks while giving up 53 sacks.

Meanwhile, Josh McCown [not counting game one when he was injured in the first quarter, but counting other games when he missed time due to injuries]

--Threw 12 TDs vs only 4 Interceptions.

--Had a QB Rating of 93.3.

--Averaged 308 yards per game.

I am not saying that McCown is the answer, but the Browns lost most of their games because their defense was pathetic. Yet, hardly anyone wants to even talk about that side of the ball.

tab started a post about OLBers and DEs. Deputy, steve, and myself broke down some of the players at those positions. Yet, hardly anyone else wanted to even discuss them.

Scouts and fans are flip-flopping as to which QB is the best. LOL......that is an indicator that none of them are that good.

Spending the second overall pick on a QB while ignoring the defense could be a huge anchor on this team going forward. The team will have to give the guy three years minimum, which means that they will not draft a top qb in the next few drafts and the Browns will miss out on a chance to draft a true impact player on the defensive side of the ball.........where real help is needed.

I agree. The sad reality is that the Browns don't have one single difference maker under 30 years of age currently on the roster on defense. Haden, if he can come back has that potential and has played up to it. The rest is just a bunch of decent older guys and servicable young depth pieces (at best) and this includes all the high Farmer picks: Gilbert, Shelton, Orchard, Cooper, Desir, Campbell.

Personally, I like Campbell best. He could become a TJ Ward type SS. K'Waun Williams is a really good nickel, but that's it.

This side needs to be rebuild as much as the offense. We're back to a full rebuild. The talent on the roster is bad all around. We need pretty much anything

I agree Django. There isn't one guy on the Browns D that makes an opposing OC worry about or have to game plan for. That speaks volumes.

That being said, while the talent on the offensive side is better, there really isn't that dynamic consistent play maker there, either.

At #2, it's a toss of the coin. Do the Browns go for a potential immediate impact player or do they draft what could be the team's QB for a long time, even if his impact isn't felt immediately? We shall see.

i thought it was a general consensus that the QB spot last season was the least of our problems.

but, i agree regardless. defense lost us god knows how many games last year.i think the only game we can put squarely on the offense was the denver game.

i think we need another DE, and we need OLB's with a passion. Shelton started looking decent toward the end of the season, so there's hope, but we need talent on that D line. right now our only threat is Bryant.

Mingo is a bust. i hope slim hope for the guy as Horton at least made him play the position he was drafted to play, but i dunno if we can get any more out of mingo. the other bryant is good as gone, and thank god because of that drug crap, but yea, we need OLB's. Kruger is good, but i wonder if he can repeat his 11 sack season from 2014, but 2015 he was almost non existent.

our secondary...i think once we solidify the #2CB spot, we should be good. if our front 7 gets pressure, our secondary will look elite again.

Only having speed is working so well for Mingo.

I think what it boils down to the fact everyone knows we need a QB and until you have a QB, you need a QB. I believe the fan base, including myself pretty much believe Hue is going to select a QB with that #2 pick.

Now at this juncture, I'm not trying to say that is the right or wrong way to go about it. But I do believe the general thought process is that with a draft heavy in D talent, we can get a QB at #2 and still get quality D talent at #32.

Like I said before, I'm not saying this is the right way or wrong way to approach it, but I believe this is how many see things at this point in the process.

The Jets are franchising Wilkerson. He is off the table.

And if my math is correct, in those games we scored 22.2 ppg, which ranks us around 19th or 20th in scoring.

McCown is old. If those numbers prove anything, it's that our offensive talent in general is not that bad.. We aren't drafting a QB to be the QB next year or the year after, we are drafting him to be the QB for more than a decade. Other guys will come and go but we need stability at that position.

As far as the defense. We need playmakers. I don't know who would disagree with that. This is a very deep draft for defense from all I've read. It wouldn't bother me at all if we went QB, the defense, defense, defense...

That's great news for any team who wants a chance at Harrison.

Defensive FAs I'd be interested in (that have a realistic shot at hitting the market):

1) NT Damon Harrison
2) CB Janoris Jenkins
3) CB Trumaine Johnson
4) DE Malik Jackson
5) DE Jaye Howard
6) ILB Danny Trevathan

Our defensive units ranked by poorest performance first.

OLB's had no pass rush or edge contain. None.

ILB's poor run stuffing.

DE's no edge contain. Randy Starks did nothing the whole season.

Safeties non-existent all year. Offered no help to Corners. Poor in run support, poor in coverage.

Corners were a huge crippled ball of 4th stringers failing to replace 1st stringers who were as brittle petrified candy glass.


Just an average defense would have given us 5 more wins last year IMHO.

I'm okay with us getting an offensive weapon or 2, but this draft needs to be about 80% defense in my opinion. Actually it needs to be bout 300 percent defense because we don't have enough draft picks even if all of them hit.

Nice list but it sounds like Denver is making Malik Jackson a priority signing, so he might be gone too.

While QB wasn't the main problem last season, it still IS a problem. Since this roster needs a complete overhaul, this is the perfect time to select a QB at 2, especially with Joe Thomas protecting him.

If you have to rebuild, the instant impact of your top draft pick should not be the priority. Pick the player that has the best chance to impact in 2018 and that's a QB. Who is our QB for 2018 currently on the roster?

If their defense was a house and you were looking to buy, it would be a tough call as to which would be less painful... rehab what you've got, or tear the whole thing down and build from scratch.


The DLine doesn't inspire much confidence.
At OLB we have nothing of real starter quality aside from Kruger.
At ILB, we have Dansby but he's getting long in the tooth.
CB is a complete question mark at every last spot, even Haden's because he himself is a question mark at this point.
FS is Gipson, who we might lose, followed by a bunch of career backups.
SS is Whitner, who is very solid and above average, but also long in the tooth like Dansby.... followed by a bunch of backups.

I suppose one way of looking at it is that this defense is completely, 100% set on its depth - it just lacks starters and difference makers, but we need them at pretty much every last position group. I try to see it, but I just can't find many positives there at all.

It's like staring at a classic car that has been allowed to rust away to nothing and you're not sure you can save it.

Defenders I'm interested in us potentially drafting and what round we'd possibly have a shot at them (all my opinion)

NT:
Sheldon Rankins, Louisville (2)
Vernon Butler, Louisiana Tech (2)
Antwaun Woods, USC (6)
Darren Lake, Alabama (UDFA)

DE:
A'Shawn Robinson, Alabama (1)
Jarran Reed, Alabama (1)
Robert Nkemdiche, Ole Miss (1)
Chris Jones, Miss St (3)
Matt Iaonnidis, Temple (5)
Anthony Zettel, Penn State (6)
Terrell Lathan, TCU (UDFA)

OLB:
Noah Spence, Eastern Kentucky (1)
Carl Nassib, Penn State (3)
Victor Ochi, Stony Brook (4 -- though wouldn't mind spending a 3)
Tyrone Holmes, Montana (6)
Alex McCalister, Florida (7)
Vontarrius Dora, Louisiana Tech (UDFA)

ILB: * I have not watched Kentrell Brothers or Nick Vigil
Myles Jack, UCLA (1)
Jaylon Smith, Notre Dame (2)
Beniquez Brown, Miss St (3)
Casanova McKinzy, Auburn (4)
Scooby Wright, III Arizona (4)
Eric Striker, Oklahoma (4)
Blake Martinez, Stanford (7)
Jared Norris, Utah (UDFA)

CB:
Vernon Hargreaves III, Florida (1)
Jalen Ramsey, Florida St (1)
Jalen Mills, LSU (3)
Zack Sanchez, Oklahoma (3)
Xavien Howard, Baylor (3)
Rashard Robinson, LSU (3)
Cyrus Jones, Alabama (4)
Maurice Canaday, Virginia (4)
Prince Charles Iworah, Western Kentucky (UDFA)

FS:
Trevon Stewart, Houston (4)
Michael Caputo, Wisconsin (5)
Tyvis Powell, Ohio State (5)

SS:
Vonn Bell, Ohio State (2) (might be able to play FS)
Jeremy Cash, Duke (2)

FWIW

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/02/15/pro-pffs-top-75-free-agents-of-2016/

38. Tashaun Gipson, S

2015 team: Cleveland Browns

In every free agent market, there are players who have fantastic highs, but dreadful lows. Gipson might be the best example of that this offseason. He was a top-10 coverage safety two years ago, but dropped all the way into the bottom 10 in 2015.

From that link, give me NT Harrison, OT Glenn, and RB Ivory and I'm very happy. Doubt we sign any of them, though, because money.

I'm not disagreeing with Vers, as I think the talent on the D side of the ball can definitely use some help, but I think the coaching change can also help as well. Kruger fell off something huge in Pettine's system, so I look for him to get back to being that solid all-around LB he was when he got here. He didn't put up huge sack numbers like many wanted, but it was more than under Pettine. Gipson was another that did better under Horton. The secondary, in general, looked better.

I'm not trying to say Horton will be our Savior, but a portion of improvement to be made is coaching.

This is a good (and sad) point. Our coaching was apparently so awful last year on the defensive side of the ball that it's hard to even understand where we are at. Matt Wilhelm, who has 8 years or so experience in the NFL was railing about the defensive scheme and coaching basics that should have been corrected throughout the season. It's hard to even see who is good or bad on this defense, especially the rookies and second year players, because the coaching we so awful. Add OL to that list with Andy Moeller's separation from the team at the beginning of the season.

Soft up the middle. Gap integrity?? What's that? No pass rush from almost any position. Using Mingo as a cover linebacker? Backers who cover better than they tackle, safeties that tackle better than they cover.


What a mess.

Build a pass rush and our corners will look a lot better.

Nice to see you acknowledge that qb is not the only position on the field.



Good catch. I was typing fast because I had a meeting I had to get to and my typing was poor. I meant to say that the Browns would give the qb three years minimum and not draft a qb AND not get that impact defensive player at number 2 in this year's draft.

Sorry about that.

So, what were the rankings w/out McCown?

This is my question: is the problem talent or scheme and coaching? I'm sure it is some combination of the two, but I see it as more an issue with the latter. Having said that, I'm all for drafting defense if that's where the best players are.

Unfortunately, the current consensus is that the NFL is a quarterback driven league, and we don't have a long term answer at the position. It's natural to look to that position when you are at the top of the draft, because that is the "most important" position. Is there anyone in this draft who will end up being an upper echelon QB? That's debatable. Is there anyone who could be? It looks like the potential is there to me. Will they reach it though? No one knows.

My problem with talking about Defense is it's hard to peg players that fit our scheme. I'm honestly not sure what our scheme even is anymore. We don't have an identity on D.

Bosa's a tweener.

Spence has red flags.

Jack and Smith are coming off fairly serious injuries.

Hargreaves and Ramsey play a position where we already have a ton invested. (I wouldn't mind Ramsey, especially if we lose Gipson, but still that's a lot of cap tied up in DBs. The Broncos did show the potential value of 3 top notch corners.)

Buckner, we've got a pretty solid investment in our D-line in Shelton, D. Bryant, and Hughes who was just re-signed along w/ X. Cooper. I don't think he's JJ Watt. Do you take a 3-4 DE at 2 if he's not on that level?

Leonard Floyd strikes me as a Mingo clone, possibly a less physical version.

Ogbah looks stiff for a 3-4 OLB

The run-stuffing D-tackles seem redundant with Shelton our most recent 1st rounder.

Ragland looks solid all around, but not a superstar. (He had a ridiculous line in front of him)

Nkemdiche is a character risk.

I just don't see a great fit on D in the projections I've seen in most mocks in the first round.

I get that, Pit. I'm not completely ignorant. LOL

Now.......before Damon misconstrues my intentions again......I guess I REALLY need to say this is only my opinion. Check.

I think that people on this board are so used to talking about QBs that it's become a conditioned response. I think they have convinced themselves that we must take a QB no matter what.

I also believe the Browns need a QB. On the other hand, I do not believe that you spend the second overall pick on a QB who is extremely risky and pass on a defensive player who can make an impact.

Again, a lot of people love Wentz and don't like Osweiler. I find that funny, because they are very similar quarterbacks. And Cousins is playing better than I think any of this year's qbs will EVER play.

I am not saying my evaluations are right. I am saying they should be considered, especially given the history of evaluations on this board. You get what I'm sayin'?

I also have to question you about how do you know Hue is in charge of the draft? I questioned tab about this in the Pure Football Forum. I have read and read and read and can't find any evidence of that other than some posters on this board saying that Hue is the lead guy. The word from the Browns say that Sashi is the lead guy. Educate me if I am wrong, bro.

We disagree on some points, but I like how you presented your argument.

Go to tab's OLBer/DE thread and read some of the evaluations that a few of us presented. You seem like the type who will at least listen. Read them and tell me what you think.

Oh...........and thanks guys. A lot of good football posts. We don't have to agree, but good discussion is appreciated.

The difference to me is that Wentz seems to be able to vary his throwing platform better and does a better job of fitting his balls' trajectory to the situation. Osweiler seems to almost always throw with an over the top motion at almost full strength. It makes it an odd trajectory for receivers at times which could possibly be exacerbated by our smaller receivers. Admittedly, I haven't watched a whole lot of Osweiler. I give Wentz the edge in athleticism also.

And in a totally unscientific sense, I just like the vibe/attitude I get from Wentz. Team first, grinder, always trying to get better, cerebral yet some gunslinger to his game, low key. (hunting vs. partying, could be partially the anti-Johnny effect)

Draft Myles Jack and play him at all the positions.

jc

Until we solve our ILB problem then our D will continue to suffer.

Travathian (sp) needs to be out top priority FA

Just so you know, Osweiler's teammates, coaches, and Elway love his leadership skills.

Again, very similar players.

He's the modern day Jim Thorpe.

They may say it, but I'm not sure I saw it. Easy to say that about a teammate when you're winning. I can see how it would be difficult to be in Manning's shadow. Maybe I'm reading too much into the rumors about tension between Manning, Osweiler, and Elway.

Having said that, I'd be okay with us signing Osweiler and going D in the draft. But I'd also be okay with taking a shot on Wentz. My gut feeling is that Wentz has the makeup to reach his potential, but I don't have all the info.

I think this draft is deep in D while the top three QBs are going to go fast. Cook, Hackenberg, Prescott, and Cardale Jones might also go earlier than currently projected. After that, no one strikes me as a potential starter.

I'm guilty of not reading the OP because you stopped me with the very first sentence.

That's exactly why you only comprehend 1/3 of what anyone says as far as a QB at 2 is concerned.

NOONE that is fixated on a QB at 2 has ever said to not touch the D.

On the contrary, we could make a huge splash on D by simply adding a Wilkerson in FA and an ILB the likes of Ragland at 32.

Now I'll go read your entire thread starter.

Bingo and spot-on.

2 or 3 solid additions FA and the draft could change all of this rather quickly. Not sure where some are getting this complete rebuild from.

I agree, but have mixed feelings about it.

Pros

a. We could get a difference maker on defence.
b. None of the QBs look like second overall picks at this point.
c. We need a pass rusher who can stop the run (or more)
d. and numerous other needs

Cons

a. No defensive position impacts the field like a QB impacts it.

b. I think we have a coach and staff in place that can develop a QB.

Weighing the options, I think we should take BPA with every pick, because we have numerous needs everywhere, (except I think we need to take either a QB, OLB, or DE with our first pick)