DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season 2016 NFL Draft Quarterback Shopping

"The Browns next ex-QB" quip was made by Chris Rose, an admitted Browns fan, and he remarked about that when questioned after the fact. The old rule, you can say things if you're a fan that you can't if you're not a fan. Fans give fellow fans more leeway.

I didn't hear it and haven't heard about it... but it's hard to blame them for saying those things until we prove them wrong.

I agree with you bonefish.. there are guys who succeed in college who do not have the skill set to succeed at the next level. For example, you have WRs and CBs who succeed in college for the simple reason that they are just faster than almost everybody they play against... so when they get to the NFL and everybody is faster, will they still succeed or can they run routes, use good technique, etc? You also see guys who succeed in college because they are very smart and tenacious.. is that enough to carry them in the NFL if they are lacking the ideal speed and strength?

You have to take what you see on tape, look at the measurables from the combine, and project into the future.. it's a very inexact science.

Now there is proof that Wentz can play and Bosa can't.

...has anyone said that Bosa can't play?

I think he can be a Michael Bennett type player, and hopefully he'll go to Jacksonville where he can play that role.

I'd rather have Wentz as a bigger Russell Wilson.

Here is a little advice: There are a few of you who are actually making it very hard to like Wentz. Your bias is over the top. You are not objective, which automatically alienates people.

Try being a bit more fair. It will actually help your crusade.

Here is a little advice: There is one of you who are making it very hard to take anything he says seriously. Your bias against Wentz is over the top. You are not objective which alienates people.

Try to post something constructive. It probably won't help your crusade, but at least it might be worth reading.

Would you care to quote all the terrible things I have said about Wentz?

It's not that you say terrible things about Wentz, it's that you refuse to admit any of the positives. Any time someone says something positive about Wentz, you have complained. Recently, you have literally been the most negative person I have ever met (and I've spent months at a time at sea, so I've been around some pretty negative people.) If you laid out the positives and negatives of both players and said you liked Bosa better, fine. But you act like Wentz has no redeeming qualities.

I'm sorry that I snapped at you a bit, but I'm kind of swamped with work right now and I'm feeling kind of grumpy.

Here:

Wentz has:

--good size
--a good arm
--athletic ability
--running ability
--potential

Does that help?

Yes

-straight A student

-showed football smarts while grilled on whiteboard

-doesn't drink like a fish and float on swans

Add your qualities= he's a contender

IN HUE I trust......go Browns!!!

I will provide context. Vers is a self described contrarian and has stated so. He is pretty faithful to the concept. Anything that is the general consensus he is against. That is his mantra, his motus operandi. So he loves anything the consensus is against and loves the opposite. Hence the love for Banner. He loves challenge. And he was right on Bridgewater, although Carr would have been the tougher but correct choice.

Feed him if you wish, and I will occasionally do so, but you have to understand the nature of the beast.

after the injury history come out on lynch I think he will slide to the 3rd round. MIght could nab him there. Not sure he is worth the risk though anymore. The guy had tomo romo fragility issues.

I'm all on board for Wentz now at #2. It's time we take a QB at a spot where the team has no choice but to get on board with the pick and finally support that QB.

I agree. I'm a little sick of hearing this level of competition BS.

It's time to go way beyond all the physical stuff and arm strength because this kid has it all. As Polian says, he checks ALL the boxes.

Now it's time to grill him on NFL level things. We're in good hands with Huey, Pep and Saunders. Put him through the ringer when he comes to Berea. Goff too.

I'll tell you what was impressive over the weekend. When Marriucci laid out that play on the whiteboard, talking quickly, then sat down and did his best to distract Wentz. Wentz walks up to the board and lays it out exactly as Mooch did. Loved it when Mooch was interrupting him and he said quickly, "Wait a minute, you didn't let me finish".

Nailed it. This kid can be our Rothlisberger going forward. Take him and get him ready.

Sensible analysis. Billick wanted to knock him for school size, competition level, speed of the game, and just to gin up negatives to provoke controversy. Stinks.

Kid has played well, has the arm, and won everything he could. I think he will need to adjust to many things like every NFL rookie does. But to write him off for some of these reasons is baloney. I liked Wentz very much. Judge the individual is solid advice that I agree with.

You probably should concentrate on diagnosing yourself rather than me.

The issue I have is, even though Wentz may be the best of the bunch of QBs this draft, and I agree with that, I feel he is the best of a bunch of second tier QBs. I don't think there are any first tier QBs in this draft.

Nonetheless, the best of the bunch typically goes high in the first round even if they're not first tier talent. I think that's why the boom/bust rate for QBs drafted in the top 10 is about 50%. Too many of them are drafted above their talent level by QB needy teams.

I think the boom bust rate is so high because they go to bad teams and dysfunctional organizations. I don't think busts at the top are position specific. (See Trent Richardson, Justin Gilbert, Barkevious Mingo)

How are you defining your tiers? Are you applying similar criteria to other positions? Who are your top tier prospects?

Wentz scouting report sounds a lot like Cam Newton's (Link) to me, except he didn't have the one year of mercenary work at a big school.

Would it make the projection easier if Wentz had played at an Auburn? Maybe (Most Likely). If Bosa (insert player you like) had played at NDSU would you like him any less? He'd still be the same person.

No matter who we pick he's gotta be in a "healthy" environment. Hopefully, we've finally got that figured out.

I like Bosa, Ramsey, and Wentz (along with a few other players at the top), but Wentz's leadership and positivity push him over the top for me. We've got to find a way to dispel the negativity that all too often seems to suck the life out of this team. We need a face of the franchise.

j/c

I believe there are better players in this draft than Wentz. I believe Tunsil, Bosa, Buckner and even Jack would be better impact players right away.

However, the position of QB is always elevated in every draft. This isn't some new phenomenon or some shocking revelation. I can't think of a QB since Luck that didn't have question marks surrounding them. So this "sure fire bet" some keep promoting simply is almost never there.

I wouldn't be disappointed with any of the players I mentioned above with the #2 pick. I also won't be disappointed if they select a QB at #2. You're almost assured to NEVER be in the position to draft the top QB in the draft, and then, even when you are, there's almost never a "Luck type prospect" in the draft. Using that logic, we wouldn't draft another first round QB in 50 years.

While I'm not strictly promoting drafting a QB at #2, if they do, I believe that QB should be Carson Wentz. Yes, there are a few questions that surround him. But I do believe he has the potential to be a very good QB. Better than anyone else in this class.

Can someone, or has anyone already, broken down how the different QB's looked at the Combine?

I've been a bit out of the loop the past several days and missed pretty much all of the Combine coverage.

I posted the videos of both Goff and Wentz somewhere in this thread.

From what I've read it seems like it's still Goff and Wentz competing for the #1 spot with Lynch being a distant third.

The only real definitive thing that I've read about the QBs is that Hackenberg did not perform well.

Edit:

Wentz's workout:

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/vi...6d-160d15329fd0

Goff's workout:

http://www.houstontexans.com/tv-media/vi...28-ca46b4682067

Purp, ddubia also posted these which could give you an idea of their FB IQ.

I always wondered what the producers of these pieces would do if these guys totally flopped.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/02/25/nfl-combine-notes-cleveland-browns-la-rams

Things at Qb have clearly delineated to Goff vs Wentz as the top 2.
Lynch and Cook are clearly 3 and 4 but there is a huge separation between the 2 groups.

Pre combine, I liked Lynch but after seeing him try to do some of the things he was asked to do, I was disappointed. I thought he needed to sit a year but now I think he will need to sit 3-4 years. He is just sooo far behind the others. As a franchise we don't have that luxury. It may be an overreaction but I think I would move Cook ahead of Lynch at this point (for the Browns).


Comparing Goff and Wentz:


Goff has a quicker release

Wentz is bigger and has a stronger arm

Wentz had good footwork but Goff's was a little smoother

Goff seemed to throw with better anticipation - related to difference in arm strength?

Both seem to carry themselves well overall but neither came across as having that compelling personality. Last year, I see Mariota and think this is a dude I would like to chill out with a beer and just hang with. I look at Winston and don't like him. He seemed fake and insincere to me. I wouldn't have beers with him if he was paying for them. This year I look at both of these guys and get the same ambivalent feeling.

Both had good accuracy at the combine. Every throw I saw from Goff was perfect. I saw one bad throw from Wentz and one maybe throw (it was hard to see clearly). Obviously I didn't see every one of their throws.

Conclusion: I would be okay with either. I think the decision comes down to a couple things.

1, What all does Hue want his ideal Qb to be able to do physically and can both guys do it. I think Wentz can do pretty much anything you ask. I am not 100% certain Goff can. He might but I don't know. Hue should be able to tell rather easily.

2, How quick are they at making decisions? Goff has shown us exactly what his decision making skills are as compared to other Qb's who have come out in recent years. How quick of a decision maker is Wentz? I don't know. With his arm strength and the competition he played against he didn't need to be a quick decision maker to be successful. Vs that competition Weeden would look like a quick decision maker. This is not to say that Wentz is a slow decision maker. It raises the question of how quick/slow he is. It isn't as clear cut a comparison with him. I think this will be more difficult for Hue to figure out.

I don't know which of the 2 I would pick. I will put my trust in Hue and completely back whomever he decides is the best fit for his offense. These are my own personal observations. I think I did a pretty good job of staying unbiased because I don't have a favorite dog in this show.

And yet his team drafted Logan Thomas.

I think analytics should push us towards one QB over the other..

Hoping we trade down a spot or two.. Dallas isn't drafting a QB. Not this year.

Trade down AND get our QB?

If we think one of these QBs can be our starter for the long-term, we need to take them at the 2 spot. Getting cute is just too risky.

My guess is that many numbers are going to give Goff a pretty big nudge over Wentz because of the strength of competition he faced.

Say what you want about the Pac-12 and its defenses, but how many guys are getting drafted out of the Missouri Valley Conference?

As Daniel Jeremiah said: "Don't judge the helmet; judge the player".

Which analytics should do... judge the player and not the helmet.

I want to trade down and get the best player, not QB.

In my opinion, none of these guys are "franchise" QB's. So when they mess up and start losing, the scouts will immediately start looking at the next draft class for a replacement. Wentz, Goff, and Lynch will all have short strings.

Part of judging a player objectively is leveling the playing field.

For example, it's why when judging a baseball player's talents, statisticians use park effects (and many other variables).

re-HotBYoungTurk

Who are these mystical best players?

Who says they'll mess up and start losing? I know that's the prevailing attitude, but it's part of the problem. We expect failure at that position/as a team.

It's a scout's job to look at the next draft class anyways.

What position wouldn't have a short string? What's the average tenure of a player on the Brown's roster?

I don't think where they park their cars has anything to do with it.