DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... What Students in Europe Learn That Americans Don't

So why are you telling everyone how bad the inner city has it? If you don't know what it's like "out there" why are you telling us how we need to help "there"? (the help is there, it just isn't taken for what it's worth).


I love this part. You, of all people - saying this? You get pissed when anything personal is brought up about you, and yet you say that?

Hey, board - I got divorced in 1990. My son is gay.

There swish.

Now should we talk about you? I'll leave it there. And, oh, my son is gay. He's a member of perhaps the most persecuted sector of today's society. He got the living hell beat out of him a few years ago for that simple reason. Ended up in the e.r.

Oh, guess what? He's gay, and he's an RN. He's also in school to be a Nurse Practitioner. He's white. He's in debt. He'll also make it.

Read a bit into that swish.

Dude what in the hell are you talking about?

No where did I take a shot or personal Jab at you.

You do realize you already posted in a past thread that your son was gay, right? And divorced?

That wasn't a shot, that was me telling you I have no idea what that experience is like, so how could I tell you how you "should" feel about that situation.

See, this is why I just don't like you. I told the board before, I don't weaponize people's personal lives or families.

It's clear you don't have any respect toward my words as a man.

But that's fine cause I lost all my respect for you. Just giving you a heads up that you're on ignore list now. I'm just done associating with you.

Ah, so you just don't like me. I get it.

I don't why this thread has turned this way, but given the past couple comments and the way it has gone, I will add some of my experiences.

I work all over this nation. I've been everywhere from Alaska to Key West. I don't go for short periods of time. I go from anywhere from 4 months to 15 months staying in the same locations. I'm self employed, however, a very large healthcare corporation keeps me quite busy working for them. This corporation is rooted in the south, and even though they are not a religious organization, they make it very clear they hold their religious values closely. They are the only non religious organization I have ever worked for who has Good Friday as a corporate holiday.

My point about being in these places for long periods of time is that I become close with these people. I'm a consultant. They pay me a lot of money to come in and fix what is wrong in the places I go. I need to learn about the people. I need to know each and every one of them and figure out what is happening with them. What do they love. What do they hate, and what lies in between. I'm very good at figuring that out, that's why I'm always working and have to disappear to get time off.

Now I'm going to give you the part that stinks. Like I've said, a big part of my job is getting to know people and getting them to open up to me. I do that well, and it's easy for me. But, when this happens, the natural thing is for them to want to know about me. They are very curious once we get past the time where I'm engaging them about their own interests and lives. I'm often in the minority where I work. When I'm out west, I'm normally surrounded by hispanic people. In the south I'm often with mostly black people, and evangelical white people. In my time with all of these very nice folks, most of them, as well as the corporation keeping me very busy, I know with no uncertainty that if they knew I was gay, it would all be over. So, I lie.

Now, when I say I lie, I just try to be as vague as possible. You know, using "they" "them", hoping they don't want to go further. But, they always do. There are people I've become very close to who I've had to lie to so I can keep doing my thing. I even used DC once as my husband because we had been joking on the board that day about us bickering and someone said we had to be married. I told them my husband was an architect because I got backed in a corner. It's okay, because if I wasn't gay, DC would definitely be my husband.

Of course, most heterosexual people can't understand why we have to make a big deal about the fact that we are gay, because....who cares?! Well.....you do. And when you back us into a corner, we often can't be honest. Because, it's not about who we sleep with. It's about who we live with. Who we share our hearts with. Who we come home to.

But, because you can't deal with that, I'll keep lying to some of you who pay me a very large salary. I realize that some minorities might say that I have an advantage because I can hide who I am. I say that they are some of the very people who love that I am still in the closet in some aspects of my life, and that is just as unbearable as what you feel society has dealt to you. Being able to hide who you are also becomes a soul stealing practice, and it sucks.

Was that directed at me?

Wow. No.

Just wondered, cause you replied to me, and there were a lot of "you don't " and "when you back us into a corner"....etc. Just wondered.

I replied to you because you were the last poster and because Swish had mentioned your son, who shares something in common with me.

If you see yourself in that post at all, take it to heart. If you don't, don't worry about it.

I don't.

Happy St. Patricks day. Here's a Kingcob drunk rant.

If I can throw out my "this will be offensive, but I'm totally not a bigot" card. Basically my only friends right now / best friends are two dudes I've worked with the last decade and am starting another business with are gay. I live north of san francisco yada yada.

I don't go around spouting my political and philosophical beliefs off in a corporate environment. My opinions on society are extreeeeeeemly volatile and would offend A LOT of people. So I hide that stuff and lie when necessary for people whom I am not intimate with. For the people I simply work with and see at the store, I am hiding things.

Honesty is relational and earned through mutual trust. You don't go baring your soul to strangers. But it certainly does suck when you don't fit in inherently. Especially on a moralistic ground for being homosexual. People thinking you are evil is friggen rough.

I'm working on my masters in psychology, have studied a crapton of philosophy, and I am extremely conservative. I'm familiar with not fitting in and holding highly offensive beliefs and opinions that other people do not. Being excluded sucks. Not being part of the tribe sucks.

On the other hand? You know what sucks? If the therapist comes into your church and wants to screw up your beliefs and your family. When the gay couple down the street kisses and it triggers an instinctive disgust and danger response in you. When the shady looking guy walks into your neighborhood and you don't feel safe.

I don't go around friggen converting people and lecturing them about this that and the other. Granted I do here somewhat But not in a corporate environment. I don't hang out with people whose convictions, ideologies, beliefs, preferences, directly contradict my own.

So yeah. Being a minority sucks. STOP BEING A MINORITY. Compartmentalize your interactions with those who oppose you. If you need to survive in a society where people don't like you, then for the love of god make sure you have intimate relationships and a home base where you feel loved and supported.

If you are gay make some friggen gay friends for your own sanity. Be in a supportive loving relationship and have your bubble where you feel safe and loved.

If you are black and feel constant slights by white people. STOP HANGING AROUND WHITE PEOPLE. Be in a supportive environment with people who like you!


It would be nice if people were more tolerant. But I'm going to be blunt here. These are biological reactions that are simply not going to change for the vast majority of people. People are naturally afraid of others who do not follow the behaviors of their tribe. People are naturally afraid of others who are different from them. People are naturally afraid of people they perceive as potential enemies. This is not ideological, people are not simply talked into fearing people different from them, this is BIOLOGICAL. Babies are racist! Seriously, look it up! Babies hate ugly people too! I wouldn't be shocked if some babies were homophobic. This is not some weird idea that people have to fear people who are different from them, people are on a sliding scale in terms of implicit aversion to differences, but these are base biological reactions of disgust and fear that you simply will not talk people out of. It would border on impossible to do so.

In the same way people are born of a race or sexuality many people are born inherently opposed to people who are different from them. They have natural triggers of disgust, fear, anger, violence towards people who are not the majority. Not for any ideological reasons, this is a basic biological reaction. So when we are requesting people be more tolerant...we need to understand in feeling more comfortable in our skins, we are asking people to feel less comfortable in the skin they were born into. They are no more capable of changing their aversion to other races or sexuality than anyone is capable of changing their own race or sexuality. While what you request makes sense from an ideological standpoint, biologically this is something that is simply not changable for many many people. So understand that you are inherently making people uncomfortable for something that is unchangable from birth in the same way they make you uncomfortable about something you can not change from your birth. These are not malicious enemies who are full of hate much of the time they are simply different from you and as unable to change their differences as you are. There just happens to be more of them than you.

At best many people can be taught to hold their tongues and repress their biological instincts. In the same way in the past gay..and many modern societies / cultures, gay people were taught to repress their instincts and not upset others. These are two sides of the same coin when people of different beliefs and biological preferences are interacting with each other. A society where people you dislike aren't stoned to death (hi middle east!) is going to have natural conflict on these levels. It isn't going to be resolvable biologically for many many people, but being civilized, no violence, tolerance on both sides, and a rejection of dominating people who are different from you are all possibilities.

Coming to terms with the implicit biological nature of peoples preferences for similarity it seems to me the best course of action is to surround yourself in an environment where you are the majority. To get out of the madness of unconscious and legitimate persecution which is as friggen natural as breathing that all humans unconsciously are doing.

The lesson of hating being a minority is to stop being a minority. Don't go around trying to change the majority to accept you. It borders on biologically impossible. Fight politically for equal rights. But don't be a friggen turd in everyone elses punchbowl socially, you don't change people, you just make everyone feel insecure, unsafe, and dislike you. The lesson of being a minority is to become a majority and to enjoy the privledge and pleasure of being such. To enjoy the inherent comfort and safety of being within the majority. Not to ruin other peoples attempts to enjoy the same comforts.

Corporate life is absolute crap and a compromise of being around people you don't necessarily love or even like for the sake of money. If you don't want to put up with holding in your inner most thoughts and feelings, dealing with people who aren't your friends, and being a minority, get a friggen farm. Find a way to provide for yourself and the people you love that doesn't involve interacting with people who ideologically and biologically are inherently oppositional to your very being.


People enjoy being around people similar to themselves. Find that for yourself in life and don't waste your energy on people who don't like you.

If you ever get sent to West Virginia Sis please feel free to use me as your husband

Cob:

Look at it this way, at least you don't live in Connecticut. (which has a heavy NYC influence)

BTW, I always found enjoyable people to work with/for in the corporate world. That was a prerequisite to any job I had. But definitely in the minority. My last corporate project team:

That's me in bottom photo.

I'm gettin' tired of being labelled "gay" just because my fashion preference is to dress as a female clown.

"Pass me another brewski, Joe. Go Browns!"

If the cycle of poverty is to be broken, then SOMEBODY has to make some grown up decisions.. and if the adults in your life aren't acting like grown ups, then who will?


It's not the kids fault, it's their parents fault, it's their grandparents fault... It's whoever started the cycle of busted families, lack of appreciation for education, having kids in their teens, selling and smoking weed.. it's their fault. It's Ronald Reagan's fault for lowering taxes on the wealthy, it's Bill Clinton's fault for signing NAFTA and sending their decent jobs overseas, it's white people's fault for leaving the inner city and taking their money with them... it's the school systems fault for building shiny new state of the art schools in the suburbs while inner city schools decay... it's the republicans fault for not really caring about them because they aren't going to vote republican anyway, it's the democrats fault for 40 years of vote-buying promises to improve their lives while only driving them deeper and deeper into government dependence. It's everybody's fault BUT the kids.. but SOMEBODY has to step up and start making adult decisions and teaching these kids how to make adult decisions as they become adults... who should that be?

I think I might be able to distill 15 paragraphs into one sentence:

"Life was better in 1950."

My like is not an endorsement, but this was my thought as well.

...and I'll let ol' Bob Dylan finish the other part of my thought.

"Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

Swish, I read the article and I have a few disagreements with the conclusions made in the article. I do agree that the schools today are used in a manner to teach children how to pass a standardized test, to pass the test has become the goal of the teachers and administrators because that is how they judge their success. Most kids care less about passing tests.

Standardized testing has a role in education. That is not really in question. It is the tying the funding of schools to standardized testing. Most students who pass the test with high scores already possess many learning tools that other students do not, such as critical thinking, problem solving skills, reasoning to name just a few. Teaching should not be about what is on the test as much as teaching critical thinking, problem solving, logic, etc... Teaching to the test is an excuse for lazy teachers.

I think it is important to state now that I am no longer in education. I have certifications to teach History and Earth Science and have a Masters in Ed. Counseling. I am certified in New York as a School Counselor. I am not currently employed in the education field, however, I have been in the classroom and the counselor's office in the past.

The teaching of how to have sex is offensive. It has no bearing on the education of a student. It adds nothing to the critical learning process or problem solving. It is a social issue. As a public servant, a teacher should not be involved in defining social issues in the school. It would be just as inappropriate for a teacher to teach about Jesus Christ or Muhammad in the classroom. Europe is not served by teaching how to have sex in the classroom. I disagree with that assertion in the article.

I believe that another language should be encouraged in all students that are going through the public education system. I would not mandate it. The problem with language in the school systems today is the multicultural diversity that drives uniform teaching to its limits and beyond. Imagine how a teacher with the ability to teach critical thinking and problem solving has to also learn to do so in many different languages and cultures. It is overwhelming for individual teachers. It is confusing for the students.

I would recommend all instruction be done in the English language. Any students who are not competent in the English language should be brought up to grade level in the language before attempting to teach them at grade level. The system in place now leads to many immigrant students who are not up to grade level in English to struggle behind their peers. It is not compassionate to recognize cultural differences and language differences and at the same time leave an immigrant child struggling to catch up to their English speaking peers. In fact, I believe it to be cruel to force a child to try to learn without giving them the tools they will need to succeed. It is also cruel to hold back other students because of students who are not grade level competent in reading, writing or language.

The problems in the education system are not a result of standardize testing at all. Standardize testing only shows what students have already accomplished, both in knowledge learned and learning skills acquired. It is important that students learn basic skills before they are able to reach higher levels of learning. Standardize testing is a means of setting a baseline of where students are in a particular school and classroom. Standardized tests are nothing more than an assessment tool for schools and educators.

I believe that many problems the schools have today is in the laziness of teachers, the incompetence of teachers, the greed of the education system, and the politicizing of education through unionization. Again, I feel it is important to mention that I have background that is in education and counseling. I believe the way to improve, (I purposely did say FIX) education is to eliminate the politics from education. Stop trying to make everyone an Einstein and teach basic learning skills and techniques. The Einsteins will emerge on their own. The majority of students are not best served by trying to make them all Einsteins. They are best served learning critical thinking skills, deduction, reasoning, logic and let them educate themselves.

The article does not mention the uniform cultures in Europe. America's attraction to immigrants has been a strength as long as they assimilate into what is an American culture. I suspect that in the next 15 to 20 years, European schools will not be some model of education if the immigration of refugees is allowed to continue unchecked. Europe is unprepared to deal with the influx and their education system is about to get a very rude awakening. An awakening that we in the USA have had to deal with for many decades.


Voleur

Mainly due to the "A Nation At Risk" report from the Reagan years. That jump started our ungodly fetish with data. Everyone was afraid we'd lag behind countries, and especially communist countries.

NAEP scores, another test that can be used to compare achievement among groups of students, shows the gap is narrowing between us and other countries. The gap is even lowering between whites and minorities, but much work is still left to be done.



I have to disagree here. Many successful models have shown how a dual-language approach can benefit a student. A few districts in the south employ such a Spanish-English system, and it gives great results. I teach in a district that follows the model, but it's not Spanish and English. It's an Alaskan Native Language and English system. There's been struggles with it, but data shows the change to the new system is beneficial.



Wow...a lot to unpack here...



Or administrators who fail to lead, make no effort to help their staff grow, or find a meaningful way to engage with the parents and farther reaching school community. You need to b proactive instead of reactive.



Pearson is an evil company making millions of dollars off of our kids through standardized testing. This corporation contributes a ridiculous amount of funding to the NEA, and many different politicians to endorse "accountability using tests" so they keep their pockets lined with cash.



Or just people dragging their feet about how 1950s America is never coming back.

Thanks for the response, Vol. let's get down into it:





i get that standardize testing is a good tool to see progress of the kid. my argument is that our teachers are being forced to teach based off the test, instead of the testing being based off the curriculum, if you get what i'm saying.



you use to be in the field bro. good enough credibility for me. much respect


this is where we disagree. i believe it is important. people like to make the argument that teachers should just be teachers. but the reality is simply different. teachers are indeed role models. ask the teachers, hell, think about your own experience. the kids look up to you guys. straight up.

nobody wants to hear the sex talk from mom and dad...because it's mom and dad. these discussions are simply less awkward with a teacher in a public classroom than it is at home with parents who start off telling odd birds and the bees stories with their kids.

also, we treat sex as taboo in this country. in europe they do not, and i think the openness of sex talk is why they have less teenage pregnancies and rapes per capita than here, among a host of other reasons, of course.



i would never say they need to teach in any other language than in english. that would be wrong. of course all classes in an english speaking country should be instructed in english.

what i'm saying is that there should be a requirement to take a secondary language course. hell, even if it's just spanish, and there are TONS of certified spanish teachers, or teachers that can get certified and teach strictly spanish, and nothing else.

thats just another tool used to get students exposed to other cultures. broaden their horizons. we need things like that if we want our kids competing in the global markets outside of the US.

plus, it's the added benefit of americans not being ignorant to the rest of the world. we have a bad enough reputation as it is appearing dumb to the outside world.



and that part is where i stop, as this is teacher speak, and i have no experience being a teacher.

then make more resources available to parents about how to talk to your kids about it. Beyond the biology of it, many parents don't want others talking their kids about the "how to", or the "if/when", or the other moral factors that surround sex.


That's fine, I just don't see where that is the public schools problem to solve.

public school has been teaching sex ed for decades.

this isn't anything new. i'm saying we need to make changes to the program.

and many parents probably don't want others talking to their kids, but i'm guessing the majority of parents have no problem with teachers doing it.

Oh, good, you are finally ready to talk about Majority Ruling!

Oh yea baby, lets talk!

?

Cob, while I do agree with you about your professional life, we disagree strongly about how you feel regarding "tribe". Yes, people in the work place don't need to know about your personal life and beliefs. This can have a negative impact on your business and professional career even though it shouldn't.

But as far as what you said about hanging with your own tribe? I find that to be very limiting. I grew up in a rural farming community. Had I of listened to and followed the tribe, my mind, thought process and beliefs would be based on a very limited spectrum of experience.

While I agree to the extent that you shouldn't be around people who genuinely don't like you, I've found often in my life that learning about people from different races, sexual preferences and different life experiences than one's self, can open your mind and see things from different perspectives.

Had I have remained on the same path as I was on growing up, I wouldn't understand the perspective of others nearly as well as I do now. I value and appreciate my interactions with people from different walks of life. While I don't always agree with them, the understanding is something more valuable than some will ever know.

V

Thank you for the kind words.

I am saying that we must break the cycle in America. This cycle of poverty that lets those in poverty remain in poverty with total reliance on the government. We must empower them!

This is what you and I have disagreed on now for years. Those government "entitlement" programs and yes, they are entitlement programs, create a social class reliance upon the government. These programs hold people down, they DO NOT empower them and never will. What I have been trying to get you to see for a long time is that we must break the cycle for our children to all have fair equitable opportunity.

If you truly care about our children having a fair and equitable opportunity with regard to education, you will see that this has not worked in the past, it is not working now and it will never work with regard to education.

There are many reasons our education system in this country is failing.

I will list them in order of importance, number 1 being the most important.......IMO.......with 32 years of experience in the system .

1. Poverty

2. Breakdown of the family unit

3. Lack of respect taught in the home

4. Lack of adequate teacher preparation. For years now, we have been turning out educators who understand accountability, the old AYP, data analysis, common core, teach to the test and PA standards. However, these same educators do NOT understand how to successfully and appropriately implement curriculum in the classroom. Without the knowledge of curriculum facilitation, what do all those aforementioned really mean? I suggest a big fat.......nothing!

5. We have removed the ability of schools to discipline students. Students complain to parents, parents complain to principals and if they do not get their way, they go to the superintendent and school board. To prevent further issue or legal action, superintendent and school board side with the parent, no discipline is given and the message is clear: you do not have to respect the school or those working in it.

6. Drug/alcohol addiction

7. Inclusion of special needs students with a variety of behaviors that disrupt and distract the entire student body within a classroom. The teacher spends 40-50% of the time disciplining these students. See # 5 for results.

8. Curriculum that lacks real life meaning and preparation for life or inappropriate curriculum.

9. Perpetual cyclical life patterns ( alcohol, drugs, abuse of any kind, variation in cultural beliefes and practices) To me, this includes ESL students and families

10. Lack of importance placed on education within our society (in some socioeconomic groups)

Perhaps 1-3 go together in a bundle in most cases, but not always.

I know my child does not receive the same benefits, luxuries and advantages that say, Obama's children. But I know the child living in poverty does not receive the same benefits, luxuries and advantages that my son does living in a home with two parents who hold multiple college degrees and have him as their focus in life.

So, I ask you Swish (and others) how is it that we empower those living in poverty to rise above the muck, mire and devastation that is their life and see the world of opportunity that awaits them.....if only they are willing to take that first step, second step and create in themselves a determination for success? Then, and only then, can we even begin a dialogue that represents fairness and equity within education, which by the way, no matter what we do, will never be totally fair and equitable.

Applause.

So much of education is dependent on home life. And poverty isn't an excuse either.

What does the kid see and live at home? Parents that stress education and getting school work done? (and that can and also does mean a single parent).

Or the opposite - school doesn't matter attitude.

Teachers can't do it all. Schools can't do it all - not when a kid goes home and realizes mom and dad, or mom, or dad, doesn't give a rip about how the kid is doing. etc.

I am NOT a teacher. But I did spend 6 years helping out in our school - elementary school. k-4 in my daughter's class (and truthfully, I hardly ever saw her), and then 1 year helping in a class where the teacher couldn't find any parents to volunteer, and she knew I loved doing it.

Anywhere from once a week, to twice a month.

And trust me, it was so, so easy to see which kids were getting help at home, and which kids got no support and consequently didn't care.

And no, not all of the kids that got help at home were equal, but you could see progression throughout the weeks/months, and year.

Those that had no help/support at home? They didn't progress much, if at all.

Rocket and Swish,

Rocket, teaching in other languages is too limiting upon the education system and teachers generally. The teachers who inspired me were not those who discussed sexual preferences or how to put on a condom. The math teacher who taught me how to do complex and simple interest inspired me when they explained the importance of having the knowledge. Being able to show my parents my new skills in mathematics inspired me and gave me pleasure.

Administrators are often failed or burned out teachers. They are no more knowledgeable than most teachers and in many cases less knowledgeable. They have forsaken the duty and skills of teaching critical thinking and logic and replaced it with the bureaucracy of standardized testing in order to justify their budgets. All too often we hear about schools being placed on State suspension and having to submit plans on how they will reach the state requirements in testing. The schools panic and blame the testing when in reality, if all they had to do was teach a student how to test they would have it easy. They abandon actually teaching and become nothing more than bureaucrats like the ones they have breathing down their necks.

I was fortunate. I went to a private Catholic school through 8th grade. I had higher expectations and the nuns taught us how to think not just that 1+1=2. When I entered a public high school, I was well beyond the other students in abilities and school became boring. I can see how students who excel are fighting a system that is designed for the least common denominator students.

Swish, they did not teach sex education in Catholic schools. The education in most private religious schools is better than the average public school. If this is the case, why would we then advocate doing something that is not a precursor to educational success.

I agree that the parents need to be held accountable.

But I'm not willing to let the kids suffer because of that. And that's where you and I disagree.

If the parents don't want to break the cycle, then somebody else will.

Sorry if I'm not willing to let the kids suffer just to make a glorified point.

Of course they don't teach sex Ed in a catholic high school.

The conversation starts and ends with no sex before marriage.

Which is probably why it didn't surprise me to see a few knocked up teens when my parents put me in there.

As somebody who is not a teacher, I have this nagging thought when reading discussions about the overemphasis placed on standardized testing. Isn't some form of testing the only objective way to know how students are doing and how well they have learned material?

I understand the importance of critical thinking. Trust me on that. By all means, students should be lead in that direction to some degree. And since many teachers (especially young teachers) are very adamant that there is too much emphasis placed on testing scores, it would be somewhat foolish of me to argue otherwise, since I am not a teacher and I'm not in a classroom on a day to day basis... or ever for that matter.

Yet I think that a heavily weighted final exam of some sort is only logical. Do you know the material that was taught? Show me. I suppose a similar mindset pervades on standardized testing, even if again I will happily admit that perhaps it is overdone, or maybe we should be teaching some different things.

But at the end of the day, it's more the specifics, implementation, and amount of testing that might have to change, but philosophically I don't see anything wrong with measuring progress via tests. Does anybody understand where I'm coming from?

Like sex ed anywhere is doing a good job preventing pregnancies?

nobody is complaining about testing in general. why i have a personal issue with is that our teachers seem to be getting pigeon-holed into teaching to the test, not acting teaching, and seeing what the test results are.

for example, and take this however you want, but it's a good example, i believe.

in the military we have a PT test, right?

you need a score of 180 to pass. it's broken down into 3 events. push ups, sit ups, 2 mile run. the only break is the next people doing the event, and then straight into sit ups, then straight into the 2 mile run.

you need 60 points in each event to pass the test. fail any one, and you failed the entire thing. you have 2 minutes per event to do the minimum amount in each event.

for the age group 18-24, you need to do 42 push ups, 53 sit ups, and run the 2 mile in 15:54 minutes.

in order to get a max score on the PT, which is a 300, you need to do 72 push ups, 81 sit ups, and a 13:00 2 mile run.

so 180 is the minimum, 300 is the max.

hope everybody is following so far.

if our drill sgt's in basic/ait ONLY trained us to do the bare minimum, which is to pass, it wouldn't work. doing the 1st event is easy, even though anybody in the military can tell you stories of people failing the push ups, literally the easiest event.

if we did the bare minimum on sit ups, a lot more people ended up failing the sit ups, and then same thing with the run, because running 2 miles after doing sit ups isn't the easiest thing to do.

unless you have the conditioning. see, if you only train to pass the test, then you do the bare minimum, and it actually becomes HARDER to pass it.

but instead of training to do 42, 53, 15:53, our drill sergeants conducted pt for us to the do the max. we didn't go on 2 mile runs, we did 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

we didn't do 53 sit ups, we did as many as we possibly could, as well as other ab work outs that helped strengthen our core.

we didn't do 42 push ups, we did arm work outs until muscle failure.

when you train for physical fitness instead of training for a PT test, the test itself becomes insanely easy to pass.

hope you understand what i'm saying.

Good deal.

If only we COULD run our schools like the military. But we can't, cause "that's not fair".

Please explain further.

Where do we disagree?

Who should be "responsible" to break the cycle? Placing that on educators as well?

You never answered my question.

hasugopher, the older and wiser teachers who once taught using developmentally appropriate practice understand the harm done by extreme, overuse of standardized testing as well.....not just younger teachers. The veteran teachers are the teachers who complain the loudest about the overuse of testing and the need to return to developmentally appropriate practice.

I suppose it depends on what aspect of learning we are talking about. Like if we're talking about what to do in a certain obscure situation, or how to learn a new skill, then yeah overall cognitive ability and critical thinking will help a great deal. If we're talking about knowing geography, that is pretty much straight memorization. Here is a map-- what is the name of this river? You either know it or you don't.

Actually, there is a sort of in-between there where students might get it right if the correct answer is included as part of a multiple choice test but my opinion is you don't really know the material if you can't answer it in a free response.

That reminds me of when I took the state insurance test many years ago. The online course I took that was supposed to prep for the test was either outdated or incomplete or something. I studied it a great deal and I think I got almost everything right on the stuff that was included in it. However, there was a significant amount of material that was on the test that wasn't included in the study guide. The questions were in multiple choice format, with 4 possible answers apiece and usually at least 2 of them were just comical. Using a football comparison it would be something like, 'Who is the left tackle for the Cleveland Browns?'

A: Alex Mack
B: Hue Jackson
C: Joe Thomas
D: Bill Gates

So as a very rough estimate, you eliminate the two ridiculous options and you're left with a 50/50 shot even if you don't know much about the topic. Stupid. I passed that test easily, including >50% in the section that I did not know and ended up researching it myself after the fact just so I'd know it. But I remember a lot of tests in school were kind of like that. That's another point about how we don't expect enough out of our students, but I suppose there will be a lot of disagreement on that as well.

By the way, for that physical fitness test, I actually think that only hammering away on pushups and situps is an inefficient way of passing those two events. It is a measure of strength endurance, that part has to be practiced, but endurance is best built on a base of strength. In practical terms, if you took your 8 rep max in the bench press from 185 to 225 at the same bodyweight, your ability to do work in the much higher rep ranges (demonstrated here with pushups) will be increased. A similar idea could be said for situps (which are really work hip flexors more than abs the way they are normally done). And the aerobic engine provides the large majority of energy in a 2 mile run so there is really no shortcut there: you have to spend some time building an aerobic base and obviously some of that has to be from running.

Fair enough. I probably just hear about it more from younger teachers as it comes up every once in a while in conversation, and I also read about it on here sometimes (usually from Rocket).

What do you think about the topic and overriding point I made? How else can you objectively evaluate students and compare them to others who have different teachers, come from different schools, etc.? Is that even a worthwhile pursuit? I think it is but am always eager to hear other opinions.

no, the teachers have and do enough on their plate as it is.

this is what you ask:

"So, I ask you Swish (and others) how is it that we empower those living in poverty to rise above the muck, mire and devastation that is their life and see the world of opportunity that awaits them.....if only they are willing to take that first step, second step and create in themselves a determination for success? Then, and only then, can we even begin a dialogue that represents fairness and equity within education, which by the way, no matter what we do, will never be totally fair and equitable."

you're point is obvious that it's the parents job to get these kids motivated.

nobody here is arguing that.

but you're HOPING the parents do the right thing. but i've learned not to deal with hope, but to deal with reality. the reality is that we have to do something else.

if we need to break the cycle, then lets do it. it only takes a generation.(i know it's more complex than that). but basically, it takes a generation to break it.

we can start by giving these kids working computers. we can start with giving them all books to actually take home to study. we can start by, as some others have suggestion, by actually teaching trade skills, that way these kids aren't stuck if they can't attend college.

now THIS is the appropriate time to hope. you don't hope with adults. sorry but a lot of people are stuck in their ways.

you place the hope in the kids. you help by doing those things i listed, as now they aren't thinking that their future is gonna be horrible. you lower the college loan rates, or force these colleges to stop hiking up the tuition rates, that way kids aren't screwed coming straight out of school.

i say that from experience because i had no hope. you understand this, right C? i grew up in a two parent home. both vets. both retired at 20 years.

but unfortunately, that doesn't mean much in the reality of the world. nobody was gonna give my mom a chance, she was a mechanic.

nobody gave my dad a chance in cleveland, he was just an infantry guy. both came out of the military injured, and guess what? as much as we are about "no discrimination" the reality is that companies don't wanna hire injured people, so they find other ways to not hire them.

so guess where we had to live?

that's why i take it personal when people try to sell this BS that we somehow have the same chances as everyone else. no we don't.

i didn't take my first 2 years in school seriously, and my parents stayed on my ass about going to school.

but you know what i was more concerned about my first two year? i told you this before, i was this close to selling drugs because the eviction notices were on the door. my parents were working their asses off, but it didn't matter.

as a kid, when you see your parents struggle, man screw school, i wanna do what i can right now to help my parents out.

and i didn't care about school because my school didn't give a damn about us in the first place.

you understand that hopelessness, C? my school had broken windows. computers didn't work. our teachers made it clear, when they showed up anyway, that they rather be anywhere else but there. there was no field trips, no science experiments. we had to sit in a 3-4 person circle just to follow along in the literature book in class.

and i'm not even advocating for myself. i'm advocating for other kids, because as much as i had it bad, most inner city kids have it WORSE.

a lot of the kids did sell drugs because it was either sell or don't have a place to live. it was sell or sit inside the apartment with the lights off cause they cut it off.

do you understand that hopelessness?

we use to clown about joining the military. you understand why we as kids thought like that?

we're looking at our surroundings. why should we serve in the military, when the country shows they don't give a damn about us? why should we strive for the best when the schools isn't give us their best?

do you know one of the major reasons i joined the military when i was 18? because i didn't want to exist anymore. i was tired of feeling like a burden to my parents, no matter how much they showed me love. i figured if i died, they wouldn't have to spend money taking care of me anymore, and might be able to save enough to move out of the hood.

maybe that way, society could at least fake like they cared about my death, instead of just being another dead nigga on the back page of the newspaper.

i didn't even know people got paid in the military until after i joined. my parents never talked about the military, and my dad almost disowned me when i joined.

now watch, C. watch somebody respond to that in the perspective of an adult, instead of the perspective of a kid.

so break the cycle? maybe start by hiring teachers who actually give a damn about us. maybe make it so that the school doesn't feel like a prison, and instead like a place where we can feel like we have a chance to be something worth a damn.

maybe the media should show some positivity for once.

C, we grow up thinking the ONLY way to succeed and make it out the hood is to either be a talented singer or rapper, or be an athlete.

other than that, the only time we see people from the inner city in the news is when they robbed or murdered somebody.

you understand that? i didn't know a minority in the business world existed until AFTER i joined the military.

i thought for the longest we was only good for playing ball and get arrested.

and i wasn't good at sports, so guess what i thought my life was gonna be.

do you understand that hopelessness?

thats why i take it personal when people say we are entitled and lazy. only people who never lived that life say nonsense like that. man people in the inner city are grinding their asses off just to survive. the inner city, all the races living in there, white black, latino. don't matter. thats my community.

and our country as a whole shows they don't give a damn about us.

yall throw money at us. great. but how come society doesn't make sure that the funds are reaching the kids?

remember my comment about sports? well, my hood school got a brand new stadium for the football team.

we still didn't have books though.

so society is showing which is more important. society tells me, tells us kids in the inner city that you value our athletic ability. society doesn't really care about us as students.

maybe thats a place to start breaking the cycle.

That hoplesness, no.

The understanding, yes.

That desire to make things better as much as you want to, yes!

But, I have reached out. I have taken the school to the projects along with several other caring educators. I have taken my nights to design, prepare and implement family activity nights that we took to the projects. Nights that were well prepared and advertised. Heck, I went there and personally placed fliers on doors and hand delivered them prior to the event.

Then, I spent my night WAITING for someone to come, they never did. If that isn't caring, reaching out and trying, I don't know what is. My fellow educators and I waited.

Why did I go home crying that night? I went home crying that night because I saw the children of these families struggling mightily in school and I cared.......even if their families didn't care enough to walk 15-100 yards to their own community building to attend a FAMILY night. I cared.

I cared!

So, I take offense to anyone who dare tell ME that educators don't care in America.

For every educator who you say does not care, I will show you two families who could care less about their children. The door opens both ways brother.

I care!!!

I think the majority of teachers care.

What I'm worried about is the overall system.

Which has broken a lot of teachers, and that has started to trickle down.