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Agreed. And at the end of the day/week/month..............who do the kids follow? Their parents - if both are there. Even if it's just one parent, they go with what the feel/get at home.
No amount of money dumped in to schools will change that. The problem exists at home.
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Dawg Talker
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As somebody who is not a teacher, I have this nagging thought when reading discussions about the overemphasis placed on standardized testing. Isn't some form of testing the only objective way to know how students are doing and how well they have learned material?
I understand the importance of critical thinking. Trust me on that. By all means, students should be lead in that direction to some degree. And since many teachers (especially young teachers) are very adamant that there is too much emphasis placed on testing scores, it would be somewhat foolish of me to argue otherwise, since I am not a teacher and I'm not in a classroom on a day to day basis... or ever for that matter.
Yet I think that a heavily weighted final exam of some sort is only logical. Do you know the material that was taught? Show me. I suppose a similar mindset pervades on standardized testing, even if again I will happily admit that perhaps it is overdone, or maybe we should be teaching some different things.
But at the end of the day, it's more the specifics, implementation, and amount of testing that might have to change, but philosophically I don't see anything wrong with measuring progress via tests. Does anybody understand where I'm coming from? hasugopher, the older and wiser teachers who once taught using developmentally appropriate practice understand the harm done by extreme, overuse of standardized testing as well.....not just younger teachers. The veteran teachers are the teachers who complain the loudest about the overuse of testing and the need to return to developmentally appropriate practice. Fair enough. I probably just hear about it more from younger teachers as it comes up every once in a while in conversation, and I also read about it on here sometimes (usually from Rocket). What do you think about the topic and overriding point I made? How else can you objectively evaluate students and compare them to others who have different teachers, come from different schools, etc.? Is that even a worthwhile pursuit? I think it is but am always eager to hear other opinions. hasugopher, perhaps testing is "the closest objective" assessment possible. However, with testing done at such intense levels within the schools, how do you take into account and get valid and meaningful results when: - The child taking the test is being sexually abused and could care less what letter a looks like - The child is beaten at home and focusing on basic survival and could care less what letter a looks like - The child has test anxiety and does not perform well on tests. Their worry leads them to care less what letter a looks like - The child is hungry and hasn't eaten for a day or two and could care less what letter a looks like - The child is worried about Mom getting beaten by Dad, or the reverse, and the child could care less what letter a looks like -The child is worried about whether he/she will have a home to go to at the end of the day and could care less what letter a looks like -The child has cigarette burns up and down his arm as a form of punishment and could care less what letter a looks like - The student has been forced to drink alcohol and arrives at school intoxicated and could care less what letter a looks like -The child arrives at school high and could care less what the letter a looks like These are all issues I have encountered during my tenure as an educator. These represent basic needs that, if not fufilled, would bring any one of us down rendering us at something much less than optimum performance I understand that life goes on. I would be interested in how European countries, since that is the specific reference in this thread, treat the issue of child abuse and neglect. How much emphasis is placed on protecting European children? Are they left in the homes of abusers? Are they left in neglectful homes? Are they protected by the law? Human beings bring with them their own constant set of variables, whether presented through biology, circumstances or choices. It is impossible to completely and equitably ever design a standardized test that would take in to consideration all of the above mentioned variables. That being said, there is a place for testing and standardized testing in education. Tests do offer solid data, when used sparingly, that SHOULD be used to drive instruction. Data driven instruction is a necessary component of education but it should not be the sole component. And, a teacher's evaluation should not ever be soley based on those scores. Summary, IMO, when used sparingly and for the appropiate purpose, standardized tests have much merit.
#gmstrong
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1st String
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As somebody who is not a teacher, I have this nagging thought when reading discussions about the overemphasis placed on standardized testing. Isn't some form of testing the only objective way to know how students are doing and how well they have learned material?
I understand the importance of critical thinking. Trust me on that. By all means, students should be lead in that direction to some degree. And since many teachers (especially young teachers) are very adamant that there is too much emphasis placed on testing scores, it would be somewhat foolish of me to argue otherwise, since I am not a teacher and I'm not in a classroom on a day to day basis... or ever for that matter.
Yet I think that a heavily weighted final exam of some sort is only logical. Do you know the material that was taught? Show me. I suppose a similar mindset pervades on standardized testing, even if again I will happily admit that perhaps it is overdone, or maybe we should be teaching some different things.
But at the end of the day, it's more the specifics, implementation, and amount of testing that might have to change, but philosophically I don't see anything wrong with measuring progress via tests. Does anybody understand where I'm coming from? Testing is critical in assessing a student's knowledge and abilities. It is not testing that is seen as the problem by many. It is a standardized test. If you take a standardized test, you will find that students not only have to know mathematics for example, they have to know how and when to use specific principles. Students need problem solving skills. Jane has three apples. Her sister gives her 4 apples and 3 bananas. How many apples does Jane have? It seems simple. To many students now, they cannot understand what the question is asking or how to find the answer. That is why students are doing so poorly on standardized testing. A weighted final exam can be used to assess overall knowledge. However, rote memorization is not the end all and be all of learning. When I taught in the classroom, I was seen as a dick by my students. I always gave homework on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. I reviewed the material covered in class throughout the week over and over. However, when it came to testing, I created my own exams. I gave equal weight to multiple choice, fill in the blank, and essay questions. I wanted to know if the students could pick the correct answer from a list, could negotiate or reason from a list and problem solve best possible answers, and I wanted the students to be able to explain to me in their own words what they think they know about a topic. I always gave the students options in essay questions so they could choose the topic they were most comfortable with. Some of the answers I would read were funny. While some answers were just plain sad.
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As somebody who is not a teacher, I have this nagging thought when reading discussions about the overemphasis placed on standardized testing. Isn't some form of testing the only objective way to know how students are doing and how well they have learned material?
I understand the importance of critical thinking. Trust me on that. By all means, students should be lead in that direction to some degree. And since many teachers (especially young teachers) are very adamant that there is too much emphasis placed on testing scores, it would be somewhat foolish of me to argue otherwise, since I am not a teacher and I'm not in a classroom on a day to day basis... or ever for that matter.
Yet I think that a heavily weighted final exam of some sort is only logical. Do you know the material that was taught? Show me. I suppose a similar mindset pervades on standardized testing, even if again I will happily admit that perhaps it is overdone, or maybe we should be teaching some different things.
But at the end of the day, it's more the specifics, implementation, and amount of testing that might have to change, but philosophically I don't see anything wrong with measuring progress via tests. Does anybody understand where I'm coming from? Testing is critical in assessing a student's knowledge and abilities. It is not testing that is seen as the problem by many. It is a standardized test. If you take a standardized test, you will find that students not only have to know mathematics for example, they have to know how and when to use specific principles. Students need problem solving skills. Jane has three apples. Her sister gives her 4 apples and 3 bananas. How many apples does Jane have? It seems simple. To many students now, they cannot understand what the question is asking or how to find the answer. That is why students are doing so poorly on standardized testing. A weighted final exam can be used to assess overall knowledge. However, rote memorization is not the end all and be all of learning. When I taught in the classroom, I was seen as a dick by my students. I always gave homework on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. I reviewed the material covered in class throughout the week over and over. However, when it came to testing, I created my own exams. I gave equal weight to multiple choice, fill in the blank, and essay questions. I wanted to know if the students could pick the correct answer from a list, could negotiate or reason from a list and problem solve best possible answers, and I wanted the students to be able to explain to me in their own words what they think they know about a topic. I always gave the students options in essay questions so they could choose the topic they were most comfortable with. Some of the answers I would read were funny. While some answers were just plain sad. Truthfully I do not really see much of a problem with that question that you gave as an example. Math in the real world is usually just a bit more tricky than 3+4 and usually involves some context, thinking, etc. I think that question is easy enough where those with basic reading comprehension skills and the most basic of arithmetic skills should be able to able to get the answer without any difficulty. Maybe I am just hopelessly naive and optimistic? I don't know, but that seems like a fair question... I kind of got a laugh about the being seen as a dick by your students comment. Kids in school are so finicky, like to take sides, and will blast their teachers for the stupidest of things. Well at least that was my experience growing up. I wouldn't be too worried about it. You're there to teach, not be another friend and part of that involves being demanding and expecting some discipline which some students simply aren't going to like. I like how you create tests btw-- worse examples of tests are ones that are ones that are entirely True/False, or entirely multiple choice questions that include many ridiculous options, that sort of thing.
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As somebody who is not a teacher, I have this nagging thought when reading discussions about the overemphasis placed on standardized testing. Isn't some form of testing the only objective way to know how students are doing and how well they have learned material?
I understand the importance of critical thinking. Trust me on that. By all means, students should be lead in that direction to some degree. And since many teachers (especially young teachers) are very adamant that there is too much emphasis placed on testing scores, it would be somewhat foolish of me to argue otherwise, since I am not a teacher and I'm not in a classroom on a day to day basis... or ever for that matter.
Yet I think that a heavily weighted final exam of some sort is only logical. Do you know the material that was taught? Show me. I suppose a similar mindset pervades on standardized testing, even if again I will happily admit that perhaps it is overdone, or maybe we should be teaching some different things.
But at the end of the day, it's more the specifics, implementation, and amount of testing that might have to change, but philosophically I don't see anything wrong with measuring progress via tests. Does anybody understand where I'm coming from? hasugopher, the older and wiser teachers who once taught using developmentally appropriate practice understand the harm done by extreme, overuse of standardized testing as well.....not just younger teachers. The veteran teachers are the teachers who complain the loudest about the overuse of testing and the need to return to developmentally appropriate practice. Fair enough. I probably just hear about it more from younger teachers as it comes up every once in a while in conversation, and I also read about it on here sometimes (usually from Rocket). What do you think about the topic and overriding point I made? How else can you objectively evaluate students and compare them to others who have different teachers, come from different schools, etc.? Is that even a worthwhile pursuit? I think it is but am always eager to hear other opinions. hasugopher, perhaps testing is "the closest objective" assessment possible. However, with testing done at such intense levels within the schools, how do you take into account and get valid and meaningful results when: - The child taking the test is being sexually abused and could care less what letter a looks like - The child is beaten at home and focusing on basic survival and could care less what letter a looks like - The child has test anxiety and does not perform well on tests. Their worry leads them to care less what letter a looks like - The child is hungry and hasn't eaten for a day or two and could care less what letter a looks like - The child is worried about Mom getting beaten by Dad, or the reverse, and the child could care less what letter a looks like -The child is worried about whether he/she will have a home to go to at the end of the day and could care less what letter a looks like -The child has cigarette burns up and down his arm as a form of punishment and could care less what letter a looks like - The student has been forced to drink alcohol and arrives at school intoxicated and could care less what letter a looks like -The child arrives at school high and could care less what the letter a looks like These are all issues I have encountered during my tenure as an educator. These represent basic needs that, if not fufilled, would bring any one of us down rendering us at something much less than optimum performance I understand that life goes on. I would be interested in how European countries, since that is the specific reference in this thread, treat the issue of child abuse and neglect. How much emphasis is placed on protecting European children? Are they left in the homes of abusers? Are they left in neglectful homes? Are they protected by the law? Human beings bring with them their own constant set of variables, whether presented through biology, circumstances or choices. It is impossible to completely and equitably ever design a standardized test that would take in to consideration all of the above mentioned variables. That being said, there is a place for testing and standardized testing in education. Tests do offer solid data, when used sparingly, that SHOULD be used to drive instruction. Data driven instruction is a necessary component of education but it should not be the sole component. And, a teacher's evaluation should not ever be soley based on those scores. Summary, IMO, when used sparingly and for the appropiate purpose, standardized tests have much merit. Many of those are tough (and tragic) situations. I think in many of them, I would be less concerned about the effects on testing scores than I would about simply getting the kid to a safe place. Police really should be involved in some of them although I know it's not always that simple. Some kids grow up in better environments than others and obviously some that you listed are downright toxic. Get the kid into a better situation and do the best you can do. As far as how that affects the results of testing on the macro level, it's an interesting topic. With IQ testing, if you take a poor area and improve the schools and economy, scores usually increase (perhaps 5-10 points, see Flynn effect). I'm just using the economic angle as a sort of proxy; I'd expect the situations you described to be far more common in impoverished areas than affluent ones.
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Legend
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That's me in bottom photo.
I'm gettin' tired of being labelled "gay" just because my fashion preference is to dress as a female clown. Some of those same folks who rip on you have already downloaded your pic to their 'kink folders'... hypocrites.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Agreed. And at the end of the day/week/month..............who do the kids follow? Their parents - if both are there. Even if it's just one parent, they go with what the feel/get at home.
No amount of money dumped in to schools will change that. The problem exists at home. The statement that the problem exists at home is too simplistic for the problem faced. Children are children. They are influenced by their peers nearly as much as by their parents. When one makes the statement that it all starts at home, then are you advocating the government enter the home life of each at risk student? Public Education is ripe with many failings. It has many problems that are related to the home. However, even the worst home environments have not held back the exceptional students. Therefore, it cannot be just about the home. I have mixed feelings about public education. As one who understands how it works and being involved in the process, I find that all to often the public school system imitates the goals of society rather than educating the students. Sex education, multiculturalism, gender identity being only a few of the misguided roles schools have taken on. Often it is driven by the politics of the people involved in public education. Remember my friends, just because someone has a M.Ed or a PhD does not mean they are any more intelligent or that their ideas are more valid. Question that SOB who tells you something is absolute. Make them defend their assertions. That school board member who tells you something must be done a certain way or a curriculum must include something, make them justify it to you. Go to the school board meetings. Stand up. Speak. Be assertive. It is your child they are molding. Do not let them make your child into a dependent of the state.  Voleur
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Legend
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It is simplistic, but it is realistic. Is it the only problem? No.
Children are children. They are influenced by their peers nearly as much as by their parents. When one makes the statement that it all starts at home, then are you advocating the government enter the home life of each at risk student?
No. Quite the opposite. I'm saying parents should be parents. REAL parents. [quote] Public Education is ripe with many failings. Yes, as is gov't. It has many problems that are related to the home. However, even the worst home environments have not held back the exceptional students. Therefore, it cannot be just about the home. Correct. But, in this post, it seems you are trying to rationalize gov't. in the home. Not? I pretty much agree with the rest of your post. Schools are asked to do too much.
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Legend
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If the parents don't want to break the cycle, then somebody else will.
Sorry if I'm not willing to let the kids suffer just to make a glorified point. That "somebody" will not be the government or any amount of extra funding... From Rocket's post, the government can provide the bottom 2 parts of the pyramid.. they cannot provide the yellow line (Love and connection), which is the bridge to getting closer to the top and achieving something. That has to come from you and me and folks like you and me.. who are willing to invest our time and energy into the life of a kid.. ONE KID (not our own)... where we can make a difference. People tell me all the time, "If you don't vote, don't bitch"... well if people aren't invested in lives of at-risk kids who are not their own, then they should not bitch about the fact that this isn't getting any better. And that comment is NOT directed at any individual because I have no idea who does what or who volunteers where.. and I don't need to know..
yebat' Putin
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1st String
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arch,
I am not advocating government intervention in the home. In fact, I would advocate less government involvement in the home. My intention was to speak on the statement that it all starts in the home or parents need to be parents. The statement then leads one to ask, who will decide the standards of parenting, the government?
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Legend
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My intention was to speak on the statement that it all starts in the home or parents need to be parents. The statement then leads one to ask, who will decide the standards of parenting, the government? Absent neglect or abuse, nobody decides the standards of parenting... Everybody just complains when crappy parents, raise crappy kids, who become crappy parents.. rinse and repeat.
yebat' Putin
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Common Sense, love and basic Human Decency is all that is required. It isn't difficult to not be a turd.
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Legend
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Now, when I say I lie, I just try to be as vague as possible. You know, using "they" "them", hoping they don't want to go further. But, they always do. There are people I've become very close to who I've had to lie to so I can keep doing my thing. I even used DC once as my husband because we had been joking on the board that day about us bickering and someone said we had to be married. I told them my husband was an architect because I got backed in a corner. It's okay, because if I wasn't gay, DC would definitely be my husband. An architect? Damn woman, wait until you get home.... I'm NOT an architect.  I'm a construction manager, I fix what architects screw up.  Now, as far as you using me as your husband, I'm honored. Heck, you want a photo for your wallet? I'll send you one. It sucks that you have to do that just to be comfortable in your job.
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Even when you try to reach kids through a medium they can understand, like sidewalk chalk, they still get all upset... College Students Were Left 'Traumatized' by These Pro-Trump Chalk Markings Emory University Students 'Traumatized' by Pro-Trump Chalk Markings on Campus Mar 24, 2016 // 9:21am Controversy is brewing at Atlanta's Emory University over pro-Donald Trump chalk markings on campus. After messages like "Trump 2016" and "Vote Trump" were drawn around campus, several dozen students protested outside the university's administration building this week. They claimed the chalkings made them feel "frustration," "pain" and "fear." According to University President James W. Wagner, they will review footage from security cameras to identify those who made the chalkings. Wagner said that if they’re students, they will go through the conduct violation process, while if they are from outside the university, trespassing charges will be filed. On "The O'Reilly Factor," Josh Goodman, a junior at Emory and a member of the college Republicans organization, said that the protesters claimed that merely seeing pro-Trump signs left them "traumatized" and that it was a "violent action" against them. Goodman said that chalk markings are a common sight on campus, noting that he's observed pro-Bernie Sanders and Black Lives Matter messages. He explained that he was disappointed to see Wagner speak out and "legitimize" the protesters, instead of standing up for First Amendment rights. "It's college campuses today," Goodman lamented. Fox I have to admit, I opened this thinking it was going to be some vile hatred on the sidewalks.. but evidently they are so fragile that "Trump 2016" is traumatizing... <rolleyes>
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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how is that traumatizing?
you telling me the same kids who have no problems posting Dank Memes on FB is hurt by this nonsense?
you know what traumatizes me? my daughters making me sit through Frozen for the 222th time.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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You should just let it go like these students should.
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Legend
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how is that traumatizing?
you telling me the same kids who have no problems posting Dank Memes on FB is hurt by this nonsense?
you know what traumatizes me? my daughters making me sit through Frozen for the 222th time. But the key is, do you, swish, sing those songs with your kids?
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It would be the first time in forever that he would do that.
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Legend
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how is that traumatizing?
you telling me the same kids who have no problems posting Dank Memes on FB is hurt by this nonsense?
you know what traumatizes me? my daughters making me sit through Frozen for the 222th time. It is traumatizing because these poor little souls have been told that anything associated with the name Donald Trump is scary... It is also traumatizing because they have found out that if they cry enough, most colleges will cave to their whining. As the article states, sidewalk chalk messages happen all the time on campus who support other political candidates and social causes, but the President, in total knee-jerk fashion, has said that if they catch who did this, they will go through the conduct violation process. For what?
yebat' Putin
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Now, when I say I lie, I just try to be as vague as possible. You know, using "they" "them", hoping they don't want to go further. But, they always do. There are people I've become very close to who I've had to lie to so I can keep doing my thing. I even used DC once as my husband because we had been joking on the board that day about us bickering and someone said we had to be married. I told them my husband was an architect because I got backed in a corner. It's okay, because if I wasn't gay, DC would definitely be my husband. An architect? Damn woman, wait until you get home.... I'm NOT an architect. I'm a construction manager, I fix what architects screw up. Yeah, yeah, you build things. Said in my best Penny to Leonard voice. 
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I think the article was slanted in the way it was written and took a couple of examples to make it appear it was wide spread.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Now, when I say I lie, I just try to be as vague as possible. You know, using "they" "them", hoping they don't want to go further. But, they always do. There are people I've become very close to who I've had to lie to so I can keep doing my thing. I even used DC once as my husband because we had been joking on the board that day about us bickering and someone said we had to be married. I told them my husband was an architect because I got backed in a corner. It's okay, because if I wasn't gay, DC would definitely be my husband. An architect? Damn woman, wait until you get home.... I'm NOT an architect. I'm a construction manager, I fix what architects screw up. Yeah, yeah, you build things. Said in my best Penny to Leonard voice. The only thing we have in common with Leonard and Penny is that if we were really married, I would be WAAAAY out of my league too. 
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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I think the article was slanted in the way it was written and took a couple of examples to make it appear it was wide spread. "Journalists" wouldn't do that.... would they?
yebat' Putin
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~ Legend
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Only if they work for Fox
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Legend
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Now, when I say I lie, I just try to be as vague as possible. You know, using "they" "them", hoping they don't want to go further. But, they always do. There are people I've become very close to who I've had to lie to so I can keep doing my thing. I even used DC once as my husband because we had been joking on the board that day about us bickering and someone said we had to be married. I told them my husband was an architect because I got backed in a corner. It's okay, because if I wasn't gay, DC would definitely be my husband. An architect? Damn woman, wait until you get home.... I'm NOT an architect. I'm a construction manager, I fix what architects screw up. Yeah, yeah, you build things. Said in my best Penny to Leonard voice. The only thing we have in common with Leonard and Penny is that if we were really married, I would be WAAAAY out of my league too. I have seen your wife. You are already WAY out of your league.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... What Students in Europe Learn That
Americans Don't
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