DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Haslam Says Team Will Improve Significantly

Really? You think we have improved the talent level from last year to this? Losing and cutting all of those Vets equals a big talent jump?

We didn't hit rock bottom last year. Far from it. The Browns sucked of course but we won 3 games. The 0-16 Lions a few years back were what rock bottom looks like. You're about to SEE rock bottom starting in September.

You really think we are more talented now than we were before we lost Mack, Schwartz etc? That losing and cutting all of the veterans we've dumped increases our level of talent? Hue and company could be the greatest coaches around but without TALENT what can they do? Last year we went 3-13 and this year we are far less talented. It will be a miracle if they can take this talentless bunch of scrubs and win 4 games again.

I think that, if this team plays well over its head, and the coaching staff pulls off one of the all time great coaching jobs, we win 3 games.

I fully expect this team to go 1-15.

Which is not that much of a drop off from last year.

That is true. However, you don't improve a team by jettisoning the best players, and creating holes you did not have to create. I could see if we had quality young players behind these guys, and we were a good team that was pressing up against the cap, but neither case is true with regards to the Browns. So, instead of having a team with 4 or 5 holes to fill in order to reach respectability, we now have 8-11.

I don't buy the theory that you get better by gutting the roster of most of your best players.

I wonder if history will repeat itself quickly - team takes PAC 10/12 QB with the #2 pick and then ends up with the #1 pick the following year.

ddubia....this might be the post of the year.

Is that how we are measuring things now?

"Hey guys, we had a really good year. We only regressed by 2 games instead of 4."

I suppose that criteria would make the next year even better because the most we could regress is by losing only one more game. Maybe Brown's fan can throw a victory party after that season.

Hmmmm.......on another thread, I replied to you about posters making things up and then others reading them and those inaccurate comments being accepted as fact. This may be the case here. I believe you read those comments on, but that doesn't make them true.

I am going to do this off the top of my head. No research. It's that easy. Okay?

Young players who played for Pet:

--Bitonio started immediately.

--Gilber was named number 1 corner in camp his rookie season. He lost the job, but the fact is that he was put ahead of Skrine EARLY on.

--Shelton named starter and played all season as starter.

--K. Williams played a ton as a rookie.

--Crowell played a ton as a rookie.

--So did Duke Johnson.

--Orchard played more than the vets while he was a rookie.

--Terrence West played a lot as a rookie.

--DeSir played got significant playing time during his first two years.

--Taylor Gabriel played a lot as a rookie.

--Charles Gaines got quite a bit of playing time last year.

--Campbell received playing time last year.

--Meder played a lot last year.

--So did Cooper.

--Freaking Macolm Johnson played WAY, WAY too much.

That's off the top of my head and I used mostly rookies, but I think second year players would be classified as "young players," too. I did not include them because I wasn't sure of the exact number of years played w/some guys.

I'm betting our new scrubs and rookies can win as much as our old scrubs and veterans have.

Exactly! We won 3 games with all these "great" veteran players. We aren't going to the playoffs this coming year, so get rid of the guys who won't be around if/when we make a push anyway and see what you have in some of the younger guys. You hopefully find a couple serviceable players and have a better idea going forward what you need.

Every time we " blow it up" we then turn around and sign "veteran leadership" and stopgaps that don't help anything. Start fresh and young at a lot of positions and let them grow together as a team.

Amazing.

Whether we agree with it or not that opinion is as valid as any other.

Sure it is.

No you read that wrong. What I meant to say is that only your opinion is valid and those who have a different opinion is invalid.

What part of my statement is wrong? Have the Browns not followed that blueprint for every regime? We sign stop gaps players and veterans to change the culture, and the culture never changes. The veterans never help the team overcome the culture any more than the younger guys do. We overpay for players like Whitner and it changes nothing.

I would have preferred to have kept Schwartz and Mack, but I am not up in arms about it. With them, we couldn't run block, and we weren't that great in pass protection and ended up at 3-13. Obviously that isn't just on them, but they weren't world beaters either.

We lost the following players from last year's team:

Mack: Pro Bowl Center
Schwartz: Excellent RT
Benjamin: Pro Bowl Receiver
Gipson: Former Pro Bowl Safety
Bademosi: Pro Bowl Special Team Ace
Robertson: Backup LB, solid in coverage

Manziel: Meh
Bowe: Meh
Starks: Solid DL
Whitner: Pro Bowler last year
Dansby: Exceptional ILB, great at shedding blovks and in coverage
Dray: Backup TE


These are the players who come to mind immediately. Of these we lost:

5 players who made the Pro Bowl in the past 2 seasons.
7 players who started for this team last year.
1 of the very best special teams players in the NFL.

While I get that a team can sometimes be improved by eliminating a problem, like we could be by eliminating Manziel, but losing the sheer level of proven, Pro Bowl talent ....... how does that equate to an improved team?

We literally need to use our draft to just fill holes created afresh in this off-season, before we can even think about upgrading the team. I understand the desire to be positive, but this seems, to me, to be extremely over the top, and unsupported positivity.

Every time the Browns end up in the basement and we think they've hit bottom and must climb out, they draft a backhoe and hire a front loader to run the FO.

I know Tab from the old 'official' ClevelandBrowns.com board, so kind of a long time now. He's usually like that when it comes to the Browns.

Yes, we lost a handful of decent players, but you did not mention the effect of new systems/coaching, plus the addition of FA's and draftees, that may very well have a positive impact on our performance. Sure, it may take a short while before we start to see these guys playing together as a team, but I believe we'll get there...

Getting named to the Pro Bowl doesn't really mean a whole lot anymore. There were 86 players originally voted, yet 133 were "selected" because tons of people opt out. Obviously not a bad thing to be picked, but there are a lot of "Pro Bowl" players that actually aren't. If anyone thought Whitner was a Pro Bowler last year, please re-watch the games.

I am not saying we will be better tomorrow by losing a lot of these guys, but we very well could be better in 2-3 years when most of these guys will be on the down swing. Schwartz would have been good to keep, and I would have tried harder to get Benjamin to stay. After that, most of the guys would have needed replaced anyway. Gipson maybe not, but his health is a huge question mark.

We lost a handful of very good players, some decent players, and some not so good players.

However, to say that the players we lost are only "decent" really undersells their performance.

Mack and Schwartz have been among the best players at their positions. Gipson was also a top player at his position, before he spent last year banged up. Bademosi is the best gunner in the NFL. These players are better than "decent". Now they are gone.

Whitner and Dansby are also very good players. They are also gone.

To replace them, we brought in a LB from the Jets who is a decent player. He has very few impact plays in his career. In 4 years, he has 6.5 sacks, 1 INT, 8 total passes defensed, 0 forced fumbles, 15 "stuffs", and no TDs.

For comparison, using the player (Karlos Dansby) he is replacing, let's look at Dansby's numbers just for last year. Last year, (1 season) Dansby had no sacks, (his 1st such season) but he had 3 INT, 2 TD, 6 passes defensed, 7 "stuffs", and 2 forced fumbles.

Somehow Davis is an upgrade though? Maybe he will be .... but I just don't see it right now. He is younger, but that's about it.

We signed RG3, and I think that he was a great signing. I think that he is a very talented kid, and I hope that Hue can work his magic with RG3. He is their only "big" move in free agency, IMHO.

Tuggle and Bailey?

Tuggle is a backup. Maybe he replaces Robertson effectively. Maybe not. I don't see an upgrade here. We'll see.

Bailey started 3 games last year. He has started 8 games in his career. Maybe we wind up with another John Greco. I will say that I do think that OL often take a while to develop, and a 4th year guy may be ready to take that next step forward. This could be a good signing, but thus far he has done little of any note.

I just don't see the scales even remotely tipping in favor of the 2016 Browns as of yet. RG3 could be a huge piece, but the rest are questionable, at best.

Regardless, we still have more holes than we have filled. The players we have filled with are of lower ability than the players we lost. I have all of the respect in the world for Hue, and in fact, when word that Pettine might be fired started leaking out, I said that I was against firing Pettine, but that if we did have to hire a new head coach, then Hue Jackson would be my choice. I think that he is a very good head coach, who could become a great head coach. However, eliminating all of the talent on the team certainly makes his life and job far, far more difficult.

A team without talent cannot win in the NFL. Can you get buy with some average talent, if you have superstars at others? Sure. However, we have let go of the closest things we had to superstars on this team. (except Joe Thomas, and the off-season is not over yet)

I fail to see how anyone can look at the moves we have made thus far and say, "Gee, we have made moves that really upgrade this team!". I just don't see it.

Vers - Why so negative? ... I don't get it ...

Haslam said we will improve .... if Haslam said it ... why would u not believe it ... its not like he's given us any reason to doubt him ... so far .. he's been true to his word almost every single time .... why the skepticism bro??? ...

Just look at our history ... if has proven anything its that he has had to have gotten better at hiring ... crap .. hes hired MORE HEAD COACHES in 4 or 5 years then the Rooney's have in 5 decades ... so just by sheer experience in the process he should be getting real good at it ... same with the FO ...

Come on bro ... its not his fault the people he hires SUCK .. that's on them ... he makes great hires ... they just get fat and lazy after he hires them ...

Ddub - I tried to be as sarcastic as u ... but I failed miserably ...

Jack Squat ... *LOL* .. that was great ...

If I might add, Tab was one of the very few here who successfully predicted the winner of the last Super Bowl. (Right, Tab?) So there!

C'mon YTown, that's NOT what I said! I acknowledge that we lost one or two good ones but you are overselling the total on balance. My point was that we have/will have more guys coming in, some of whom may turn out good. Also, I am optimistic that this coaching staff will be a plus in our favor. While I am disappointed that we were not able to retain one or two of these guys, I am far from saying the sky is falling...

I was being nice, but some of you can't let it go.

Almost every part of your post was wrong.

Football is a team sport. Not every player on the Browns sucked. Not every player on the Broncos was great. You will find a wide range of abilities on all teams.

My wife and I recently bought my daughter a house. It needed work. The electrical wiring was a mess. The roof leaked in one area and the plaster walls were aged. However, the wood flooring was beautiful. The plumbing was updated and working well. It was a brick house w/a sound foundation. The landscaping was superb.

We did NOT gut the entire house. We fixed what was wrong w/the house. You get that, dawg?

Schwartz, Mack, and Gipson were like the floors, plumbing, and landscaping in my daughter's house.

I think it is ignorant to say that because we were 3 and 13 we should get rid of the better players on the team. I mean, I can't even believe I have to freaking say that. How about getting rid of the sucky-ass players on the team and keeping the better players? Would that not make sense?

Good God Almighty.

Sorry YTown for using the Lord's name.

The sky is falling? It fell in the 1980's.

You look at the Browns and see blue skies, daisy chains, and laughs.......??? That's not quite the exact lyrics from Floyd's song about Brain Damage, but it's close enough. And anyone who believes it probably is trippin' w/Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.

A new low.




Uhmmmm.........we have tried that, but you call us "cowards," "haters," "clueless," "liars," "biggest agenda poster on the board," etc

What's overlooked with losing Schwartz and Gibson.
Both are under 30 and improved each year as Browns.
How many players drafted in the last 10 years as Browns actually improved year to year????
Guys like Taylor...T Rich...Edwards...Massaqiou..Robiskie.
Weeden...all regressed.
Even Haden has regressed.
You simply don't get rid of players who improve year to year.
That's why playoff teams stay playoff teams
Their drafted players grow into their positions and
Play at high levels

You're suggesting that I have akin to brain damage...and due to drugs? Simply shows how very little you know about me. I can't even conceive that someone would post that about a fellow poster...

Wow and to think of all the times you took up for him bbrowns32...

Fool me once, shame on you... fool me 18 times, shame on me.

I've allowed my optimism and emotions to rise based on opinions and projections before. We will improve significantly when we do. When I see it, then I will believe it. Until then it's just

First off, Mack wasn't coming back here. Plain and simple. He signed for less money somewhere else and has been planning his move for 2 years now.

2nd, I agreed with Schwartz, I think we should have kept him. That said, he is not an excellent RT. He is above average in pass protection, but a below average run blocker.

Gipson is also a good player, when healthy. I wish we would have tried to sign him, but he seemed a little like Mack and was looking for a way out.

Whitner is not a good player at this point in his career and is going to be 31 soon. At $6 million a year, he just isn't worth it, especially with a promising player like Campbell on the team.

Dansby is 34 and will turn 35 this season. He is a good player, but you can't build around him at all. This very well may be his last season. Doesn't make sense to keep him around at this point.

I think that we have an excellent head coach this time around. I really and strongly believe in Hue Jackson, and like I said, he was the guy I brought up (1st on the boards, IIRC) when it was said that Pettine was in trouble. I didn't want to make a change, because we can't just making changes every year or 2 .... but when it was reported that Pettine was likely going to be fired, I named my preference.

I really respect Hue as a coach, but a coach without talented players is a coach in a hole. This front office dug not a hole, but a ditch. The owner of this tea does not exactly have a great reputation for patience, and this front office has gutted the little talent this tea had.

Let's look at what we have left:

LT: Joe Thomas - The team reportedly tried to trade him last year, and no one should be surprised if he is traded this year. He is 31 years old, and despite protestations from the pseudo GM, I fully expect him to be gone by week 3. (or sooner)

John Greco is also 31, and I can easily see him being moved as well. Might as well tear the whole OL down and start over.

Josh McCown, Andy Lee, Travon Williams, Desmond Bryant, Paul Kruger, Andrew Hawkins, Hartline, and Moore and the remaining players who are 28 and older.

Barnidge is 30, but he just signed a new deal, and presumably the team will not do him the dishonor of trading him when he signed back here, saying that he wanted to be here. However, he is 30 ...and analytics says ......

If these guys survive this year, I'll be stunned, and I don't think anyone can state with any certainty that they will be here after this year. Their age is against them.

Unfortunately, they are really the best of our remaining talent.

I then look at the roster of guys 27 and under. Who among these guys is a sure fire star? Haden? Not after last year. Bitonio? His 1st year was very good, his 2nd, not nearly as good. Maybe Nate Orchard, Danny Shelton, and Duke Johnson approach plus starter level ..... but who knows? The rest of this roster? Sure looks a lot like filler to me. Who are the difference makers? Please, someone tell me. Who are the guys we build around? For those who see this team making a big jump in wins, how? What gives you confidence that this will happen?

Teams that are successful can allow a very good player or 2 to leave, and plug in a young player. This is not a successful team. This team lacks talent, and allowed talent to leave (appearing to) not even trying to keep them. We have allowed, thus far, 5 or 6 starters (depending on how you classify Benjamin) to leave. (Mack, Schwartz, Benjamin, Gipson, Dansby, and Whitner) Who replaces them? How does just letting these guys walk improve the team?

I just don't see the reasons for optimism at this point. This off-season has been an abysmal failure thus far. I don't see us being able to make enough moves to make up for the holes we created.

I really like the hiring of Hue Jackson, but my fear is that we waste it because of the impatience of the owner of this team. I see a 1 or 2 win season coming, and I fear that will push "Mr Fire-Em-All" over the top yet again.