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I don't see the point of spending money on FA just because we have it. If it's not a clear upgrade at a position, why spend the extra cash? We don't want to get locked into bad contracts. If we are not going to go after good people, then we should be waiting. Let's hit the draft, and see what we come out of it with, then if we need to add some players let's see who is available.
Spending money just to spend it is never a good idea for any reason. Whether it's in real life, football, or business. Welcome to the board, Brownsfan01. I think people would generally agree with the concept of spending big $$ money just because you have it. I think a big concern was the FO and the inability to sign our own guys, specifically a young, proven player like Mitchell Schwartz. We don't know what exactly happened with the negotiations but him leaving creates another hole where they may not have been and he was clearly worth the investment. As far as FA is concerned, I think your point rings truest here because this team is going through a rebuild. There is no point in overspending if you're resigned to the fact that this approach will take time and you will be bad early on. Whether or not it will be successful is another matter entirely. Assets will be allocated to the draft.
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I don't see the point of spending money on FA just because we have it. If it's not a clear upgrade at a position, why spend the extra cash? We don't want to get locked into bad contracts. If we are not going to go after good people, then we should be waiting. Let's hit the draft, and see what we come out of it with, then if we need to add some players let's see who is available.
Spending money just to spend it is never a good idea for any reason. Whether it's in real life, football, or business. Welcome to the board, Brownsfan01. I think people would generally agree with the concept of spending big $$ money just because you have it. I think a big concern was the FO and the inability to sign our own guys, specifically a young, proven player like Mitchell Schwartz. We don't know what exactly happened with the negotiations but him leaving creates another hole where they may not have been and he was clearly worth the investment. As far as FA is concerned, I think your point rings truest here because this team is going through a rebuild. There is no point in overspending if you're resigned to the fact that this approach will take time and you will be bad early on. Whether or not it will be successful is another matter entirely. Assets will be allocated to the draft. That's a good point, Memphis...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 04/05/16 09:19 AM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I don't see the point of spending money on FA just because we have it. If it's not a clear upgrade at a position, why spend the extra cash? We don't want to get locked into bad contracts. If we are not going to go after good people, then we should be waiting. Let's hit the draft, and see what we come out of it with, then if we need to add some players let's see who is available.
Spending money just to spend it is never a good idea for any reason. Whether it's in real life, football, or business.
Since Haslam bought the Browns, it seems that the Browns are more focused on competing for the title of team with the most cap space available. Currently the Browns have the 3rd highest amount of over the cap dollars, with +$40 mill.
Looking at some of the stats on cap space, it looks as though the most successful teams use most of their cap space.
The Browns don't win a damn thing for spending the least amount of their cap space...no title, other than maybe the dumbest franchise in the NFL.
The Browns would rather spend cap dollars on someone elses free agent, than to retain their own free agents.
Those teams willing to use most of their cap dollars love to swoop in and grab those Browns free agents that the Browns Brain Trust refuses to sign. In Cleveland, that happens almost every year...
...is that stupid..or what?
Browns fans do get the pleasure of watching many of their EX-Browns in the playoffs every year..on other teams that were willing to spend their cap dollars on those Browns players our management team deemed, not good enough to play in Cleveland.
The problem with this franchise is the owner and the stupid management he hires to make stupid mistakes.
Last edited by mac; 04/05/16 09:30 AM.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Dwayne Bowe. I'll give you that one, mac. But I don't really see it as a money issue as they were offered competitive pay . I expect that our willingness to "pay" will be come more evident over time...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 04/05/16 09:42 AM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Mac, it's a 3-13 team.. with only a few exceptions, they don't deserve major bucks.
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“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I don't see the point of spending money on FA just because we have it. If it's not a clear upgrade at a position, why spend the extra cash? We don't want to get locked into bad contracts. If we are not going to go after good people, then we should be waiting. Let's hit the draft, and see what we come out of it with, then if we need to add some players let's see who is available.
Spending money just to spend it is never a good idea for any reason. Whether it's in real life, football, or business. Welcome Brownsfan01. I agree with you. The way of doing business in Cleveland has changed. No more Jason Campbell, Jake Delhomme, Donte Whitner types. Those days are over. I think the real issue people have is the not signing the RT Schwartz. Myself, I do not agree that letting him go is tragic and a sign of incompetency. Others do. The Browns have broken new ground in the F/O and with change comes anxiety for the fans. If it works, the naysayers will be on board. If it does not work, they will all be football gurus. Enjoy having you join the board. Voleur
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01...just one problem, in the NFL teams are supposed to spend 89-90% of their cap money. The cap for 2016 is set at $155.27 million for each team..up from the 2015 cap level of $143.28 mill.
[color:#FFCC33]I get that, but do you want to sign more Dwayne Bowe types that want 2-3 year deals with 10 million guaranteed? I don't. When we cut them the following year, I am pretty sure they still cost us cap space.
Since Haslam bought the Browns, it seems that the Browns are more focused on competing for the title of team with the most cap space available. Currently the Browns have the 3rd highest amount of over the cap dollars, with +$40 mill.
Last year we had one of the top 5 most expensive defenses in the league. How did that work out for us? Throwing money at the problem doesn't always fix it.
Looking at some of the stats on cap space, it looks as though the most successful teams use most of their cap space.
Those teams also have players like Tom Brady, Gronkowski, etc. that use up large amounts of space. We don't have those players sadly.
The Browns don't win a damn thing for spending the least amount of their cap space...no title, other than maybe the dumbest franchise in the NFL.
There is no proof that spending wildly for out of prime players would do anything more for us except put us into the Raiders catagory from a few years ago where they had 50 million dead money on the books.
The Browns would rather spend cap dollars on someone elses free agent, than to retain their own free agents.
Were you willing to throw 20 million of our cap at Mack/Schwartz? I wasn't. We cannot have 30+ million tied up in 3 offensive lineman. And to be honest, for Mack, and Schwartz, how good has our running game been? Yes I know our RB have been poor, but a good line can make up for that. We had Thomas, Mack, Bitonio, Schwartz, yet one of the worst rush offenses. What happens when Bitonio comes off contract? Throw another 8 mill his way? so 1/3 of our cap is spent on our line, that is ineffective run blocking?
Those teams willing to use most of their cap dollars love to swoop in and grab those Browns free agents that the Browns Brain Trust refuses to sign. In Cleveland, that happens almost every year...
These players want out, which means we have to pay significantly more to keep them. It's better to let some of them go.
...is that stupid..or what?
Browns fans do get the pleasure of watching many of their EX-Browns in the playoffs every year..on other teams that were willing to spend their cap dollars on those Browns players our management team deemed, not good enough to play in Cleveland.
The problem with this franchise is the owner and the stupid management he hires to make stupid mistakes. [/color] [/quote]
Thank you for the warm welcome everyone.
Last edited by Brownsfan01; 04/05/16 05:00 PM.
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[color:#FFCC33] I think Sashi was promoted to take over Sheiner's position President and to be at the head of the ROUND TABLE lol  ... What I mean is make sure there is ONE GOAL, ONE THOUGHT being at the head of the decisions. Not a faction to build between personnel and Coaching. I'm not really sure what that mean my friend ... I don't get it .. at least not when it comes to putting together a winning football team ... ITS NOT THAT HARD ... WHY DO WE OVERCOMPLICATE THINGS .. and I know u know this bro ... there's one of two ways to set up a "FO" structure when it comes to personal decisions ... 1. HC tells the GM what he wants as far as skill sets for positions and the GM puts his folks to work finding them ... (see the old 49ers with Walsh/McVie ... the Pats with Billicheck and whoever the GM is now) .. then the HC makes the final decision if no "consensus" is met ... 2. the GM is going to have the final say over personal decisions ... the HC is there to fit whoever the GM acquires into a system ... U don't need a moderator for that ... my point is .. your saying Sashi is going to be a "moderator" between the GM and the HC ... if u need to hire a "moderator" you've all ready LOST ... your screwed anyhow .. and bro .. I have not read a ton .. I don't pay that much attention anymore ... this crap is not worth my time .. cause that's what this is .. A CRAPFEST ... want proof ... ask yourself one simple question .. HOW MANY FOOTBALL GAMES HAVE U ENJOYED WATCHING SINCE THIS pos HAS BOUGHT THE TEAM? anyhow ... the little I've read from haslam says that sashi will have the final decision on all personal moves or something along those lines until we hire a "GM" .. well as far as I can tell we haven't hired a "GM" yet unless U want to count Mr. Moneyball as our "GM" ... so as of now ... Sashi is the man ... Its different and then again its not so different. Can Hue become (evolve) into a BB genre head of the class with tools all around him? from what I've read that's not going to be the case (in that he has the final say unless a consensus is met) ... I HOPE IT IS ... cause I look at our org. and see NO FOOTBALL PEOPLE until u hit Hue ... this "structure" makes no sense to me and thats OK .. it doesn't need to .. problem is, IT IS NOT CONDUCIVE TO AQUIRING THE TALENT TO WIN FOOTBALL GAMES ... its simply not .. how the heck does anyone think U can win football games W/O football people making personal decisions is beyond me .. and this is not me endorsing Hue .. he is just the only one that I can see has any actual football experience other than negotiating contracts and drawing up naming right contracts ... I haven't changed .. I will give him 3 or 4 years before I make up my mind ... u know .. give folks a FAIR CHANCE ... something no one seems to have the patience to do today ... (just like I will Sashi and the rest of this FO ... so far I HATE what I've seen from these guys .. buts its way to early in there regimes to be making final conclusions on how they will do ... ) Different yes, but make no mistake about it. Hue is King and so far (small time to view) he has been a just King listening from his generals and advisors. If Hue is king .. the early returns on his reign are very very poor ... and I may not need the 3 or 4 years to make my final conclusions ... *L* ... U and the others can talk til your blue in the face ... no way u can convince me that letting Mack and Schwartz and Gipson walk is conducive to winning football games ... NOT A SHOT IN HELL ... and so far ... what I've heard him say about QB's is not making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ... are u kidding me with Kapernick??? ... not only is he not a good QB but the guys a jack ass .... then I read today he's not sure if Pryor will be a QB or WR??? ... *LOL* .. and don't go there .. theres no need to POSTURE there .. there's not an nfl team out there scared of Prior at any position on a football field .. you'd be able to help me on the RG3 signing (IMO it was HORRIFIC but I can understand it depending on whats coming next) ... if either of the two guys were drafting can run an O that resembles the O we will have to install to give RG3 any chance to succeed ... then it makes sense .. but if these guys are more traditional QB's then this was just another HORRIFIC MOVE by a bunch of fools ... I don't know where this is going to head to. I like that its different I like the way the establishment almost are afraid for it to succeed so ridicule it at every chance. ... No one knows where its heading ... that's the buety of life ... my guess is ... its headed for the scrap heap .... cause it MAKES NO SENSE ... its would be like calling a garage owner to take over a bakery ... does he know business? yup ... but they don't know THAT BUSINESS ... like I said .. I truly hope Hue is the king but then on the other hand ... WOW ... based off the EARLY RETURNS maybe we would have been better off with Mr. Moneyball and our lawyer making personal decisions .. This isn't politics bro ... the establishment is thrilled with this development ... cause they know as long as were still in the hands of a moron owner there's only 30 other teams to worry about ... Hue is the Football guy...he provides all the Football variables to those nerds who do know football and have been around football. All 3. Shashi 13 years??? While he has book wormed his way through his duties I'm sure he didn't just stop there, I'm sure he studied, observed and formulated theories. lets see here ... lawyers turned into running football teams .. is there any history of that happening we may be able to learn from .. oh ya .. we have experienced that here .. Policy had more than 13 years in AND he was promoted to team president and was trained under IMO the best football guys ever (Billicheck may be as good but theres to much "cheating" revolving around him) ... that would be Walsh/McVie .... how'd that work out???? ... he ruined Frisco .. then he came here and sucked ass here also .. lets see Sashi has been with the Jags and Browns .. WHAT FOOTBALL MINDS DID HE GET TO LEARN FROM IN EITHER OF THOSE ORGS? ... ya ... I got a lot of faith in Brown cause he's been a lawyer his entire adult life and been around LOSING FOOTBALL FRANCHISES for 13 years ... sorry bro .. I can't share your optimism here .. Berry he's risen up the charts in the Personnel he has been a quick study and has formulated organization of the tools at hand. who's Berry ... apparently I missed something .. and what ACTUAL FOOTBALL EXP DOES HE HAVE??? .. has he ever worked in an org. scouting or player acquisition department? DePodesta is a data genius in applying it to the Study of the sport and he has knowledge of football. ... this data analysis stuff is CRAP ... its football ... this was an ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC HIRE on many levels ..
Its not this Cluster muck - why cause in one day of FA. They didn't choose to lose all those 4 homegrown players. More so they chose to see what else is out there. I have told all (never spit on them) that I DON'T BLAME THEM!
first off .. I think we need to improve some to get to the cluster muck category ... secondly .. we decided to see what else was out there???? hmmmm .. how'd that work out for us??? ... dude .. we had one of the best RT's in FA and one of the best Safeties ... THERE WASN'T MUCH BETTER OUT THERE .. who do we have to replace them??????????????????? especially Schwartz and Gibson ... YOUNG, TALENTED non problem childs .... GONE .... get back to me on there replacements ... We lost them to our INSTABILITY...all 4 of them this was going to be their 4th HC in 5 seasons. That is why they are gone. First and foremost. Mack .. absolutely .. the other 3 .. blaming that on the past is just something that needs to be done to keep you from facing what we both know is inevitable ... THIS THING WILL BE BLOWN UP AGAIN ... question isn't if, its when ... I wish to see how we build this thing. The 2nd tier signings seem ok...got to see how they fit in and deliver. me too .. will be ... well lets be honest ... it will more than likely be really hard to watch and my guess is more tears will be flowing ..
But NOW THAT THEY are GONE. RT, C, FS and 3rd WR are not rare positions to fill.
I agree in theory ... now we'll see how that works out for us ... we lost a VERY GOOD CENTER .... we lost what many say was a top 2 RT in this years FA class ... we lost a very good YOUNG SAFETY ... lets see just how "easy" it is for us to replace them ...
We didn't lose a QB, LT, Elite Edge Rusher, Elite Cover Corner...those are the rare positions that if we lost 4 would have been devastating.
*LOL* ... that would be a better defense if we had an ELITE player at more than one of those positions ... we have no pass rush, no cover corner or a QB ... theres a million good reasons I could see us not re-signing at least 2 of them ... problem is ... NONE OF THEM ARE THE REASON WE DIDN'T RE-SIGN THEM ... we have a ton of cap space .... we have no one we have to dump a ton of money into in the next couple years ... and pretty much every position on our team is lacking in talent .. THERE'S NO REASON 2 OF THEM SHOULDN'T BE HERE ... What I thought was humorist was how many said well lets TRADE Joe Thomas as if we were unloading talent! bro ... were obviously starting over (to re-build means u had something in place ... WE'VE NEVER HAD THAT) ... so how does not trading Joe Thomas make sense? ... now I can see your argument here ... we need a LT for the development of our QB .. and I agree .. BUT ... I can also see the other side of that coin .. I agree with U .. I would protect my young, developing QB ... but the other side definitely has a GOOD VALID POINT OF VIEW on this one ... especially seeing how we let 2/5ths (an ABOVE AVERAGE 2/5ths) of our OL just walk away ... that doesn't tell me were all that interested in protecting our young, developing QB .. Its not the Sashi, Berry, Paul D, Hue Fab 4 that will keep us down...its if we Fire all and start over. That is the biggest key. Once and for all have STABILITY and Continuity! I agree it won't be those 4 ... ITS THE MAN ABOVE THEM ... we been having this continuity discussion for years and years bro ... and like I have always said ... continuity for the sake of continuity is just STUPID!!! ... hire good people that do there jobs COMPETENTLY and then u shoot for continuity ... we could have left Farmer and Pettine together for 40 years ... would they have improved?? .. you'd think .. but would we have even made it to the Super Bowl just cause of continuity with those two???? ...
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Hey Mac ...
I really liked two things u said ...
haslam's "scheme" ... that's about what it is .. he thinks he's smarter than everyone and is going to try and get a competitive edge with this moneyball crap ..
U know what would be a GREAT IDEA for the guy ruining our football team .... how about he looks at the model for the team he was a "co-owner" with ... he doesn't like that "model" of how to run a football team ...
I'm not sure how that would work out ... but my brother is a stiler fan ... and he's been much happier than I have since the 60's ... and at this point ..
INSTEAD OF TRYING CRACKPOT IDEAS of how to set up an org. ... I'd be willing to try another formula that is TRIED and TESTED and PROVEN over time to winning football games ...
but hey ... that's just me ... I mean bringing baseball people in to run a football team has to be a GREAT IDEA ... right ....
the other one I liked was the Big Brain FO ... do u mind if I steal that? ...
Stay healthy Dawg!
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who's Berry ... apparently I missed something .. and what ACTUAL FOOTBALL EXP DOES HE HAVE??? .. has he ever worked in an org. scouting or player acquisition department? Andrew Berry, Pro Scouting Coordinator Andrew Berry is in his seventh season with the Colts and his fourth as the team’s pro scouting coordinator. He spent his first two years with the club as a scouting assistant before being elevated to pro scout in 2011. Berry was a four-year starter, a three-time First Team All-Ivy League selection and a two-time All-America choice at cornerback for Harvard University. Colts site "Longtime Colts president/GM Bill Polian spoke highly of Berry. Andrew Berry is one of the brightest young men we ever had the pleasure of working with. He came to us very early in his career and very soon we realized he was on a fast track. I am not surprised the Browns hired him for this very important position. I assure you he has both the capacity and the will to do an outstanding job. The Browns have made, in my humble opinion, a great hire." …while Hue Jackson cited his football knowledge and analytical skills as assets. Andrew will be a great leader in our personnel department. In spending time with Andrew, it is evident that he has a very strong understanding of the game. His substance and depth in his analysis of how to build a successful team and how he looks at individual players will be a great benefit to us moving forward. It is critical to not just rely on one individual but to have a leader in place that can bring together a comprehensive array of information from our talented and hard working group of scouts and raise the strategic level and success of our approach. Per the Browns, Berry’s responsibilities in Indianapolis included “managing the free agency process, scouting upcoming Colts’ opponents, evaluating NFL players and players other professional leagues. He also assisted with college scouting, preparation for the NFL draft and participated in contract negotiations during free agency.” link
#gmstrong
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Welcome aboard, BF01! Hope you enjoy the board here. Football spoken here. Should be special. . . . . 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Thanks Dub,I was wondering who he is myself.
Another Harvard guy?
Going from one agent representing everyone to all Harvard guys,it appears Haslam has a fascination with limiting the gene pool.Must be that southern heritage thing.
I wonder what role this Berry fellow played in the Trent Richardson deal?As pro scouting director,he was in a position to weigh in on the decision.
Ignorance is bliss,the more I learn about this FO,the less I like it.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Hey Mac ...
I really liked two things u said ...
haslam's "scheme" ... that's about what it is .  the other one I liked was the Big Brain FO ... do u mind if I steal that? ...
BTW, your comments and opinions sound so much like a small group of us who have questioned the entire scheme..post when you get the time...take care, mac
GM strong...
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I wonder what role this Berry fellow played in the Trent Richardson deal?As pro scouting director,he was in a position to weigh in on the decision. The Browns hired him at the end of January 2016.
#gmstrong
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I believe he meant if Berry was w/the Colts when Banner ripped off Indy in the TRich trade.
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Face palm. Sorry BC. Thanks Vers.
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I believe he meant if Berry was w/the Colts when Banner ripped off Indy in the TRich trade. Do you know if Banner ever publicly said what it was about TRich that he saw that he felt was worth trading him at that time? I know some people thought TRich's rookie campaign was overrated, but it certainly wasn't bad and I don't recall anything from that season that would indicate he'd become a bust. Just curious if you know because it WAS a helluva rip off and I know that a couple months back when the networks called Banner in to talk about the new Browns FO set up he also talked about how Chud was pissed at him for making that trade.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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No, I don't remember Banner dissing TRich publicly.
I was a guy who argued against drafting TRich. We had great debates on the official board about it. I was a guy who blasted TRich during his rookie year and heading into his second year.
I always said he had terrible vision. He missed so many holes that it boggled my mind. He wasn't instinctive at all. While he put up decent numbers, his yards per carry average was horrid. I imagine that Banner's team saw the same things in TRich that I did. No proof of that, but it makes sense especially considering what we have seen of TRich w/other teams.
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I think Sashi was promoted to take over Sheiner's position President and to be at the head of the ROUND TABLE lol ...
What I mean is make sure there is ONE GOAL, ONE THOUGHT being at the head of the decisions. Not a faction to build between personnel and Coaching.I'm not really sure what that mean my friend ... I don't get it .. at least not when it comes to putting together a winning football team ... ITS NOT THAT HARD ... WHY DO WE OVERCOMPLICATE THINGS .. [color:#FFCC33]We the fans might over complicate things - I think they have a plan well in placed. What it means is: The last 10 seasons we have those words spoken by everyone about a successful team. The GM and HC have to be connected at the hip and work as one mind and goal. Regime after Regime we had in fighting and Power issues...with every Regime. Maybe not Holmgren's...it just Sucked. Cause the HC was a puppet. Still the infrastructure of the Regime was very Flawed. I joked about the HEAD of the ROUND TABLE...but it actually describes what I envision. When we first hired Sashi...not the mumbo jumbo that has been talked about. We hired him to end the infighting and make an organization that can work as one mind one goal. What has been alluding us all these years. That is what I meant. and I know u know this bro ... there's one of two ways to set up a "FO" structure when it comes to personal decisions ... Well how has that worked out for the Browns. I'm all ears for a new structure...round table and Sashi being King Arthur. 1. HC tells the GM what he wants as far as skill sets for positions and the GM puts his folks to work finding them ... (see the old 49ers with Walsh/McVie ... the Pats with Billicheck and whoever the GM is now) .. then the HC makes the final decision if no "consensus" is met ... I see different parties doing a lot of work and providing TOOLS, Data, Info to the Football People (clearly headed by Hue) to have the biggest impact regarding the personnel. Yes, Sashi says the words, "Ok, so we are all in agreement, So n so will be who we want as a Brown."
The key words is all in agreement. Not the in fighting with FO vs. GM vs HC....going nowhere. Like when Vers and I fight in posts...how are we doing with the Football part...lol 2. the GM is going to have the final say over personal decisions ... the HC is there to fit whoever the GM acquires into a system ... U don't need a moderator for that ... my point is .. your saying Sashi is going to be a "moderator" between the GM and the HC ... if u need to hire a "moderator" you've all ready LOST ... your screwed anyhow .. No I'm saying there are certain duties of GM, President, Business that Sashi will have control over.
I'm saying Berry and staff will accumulate football info and data, film evaluation and bring that forefront of their JOB in the organization...their job not the job of others. Paul is going to collect data, not only for the Personnel department, for Sashi in the economic dept. for Hue in the Field/Football dept.
I am saying All will do their job and do it well and not concern themselves about the other areas job. Trust it and use it to help do their job.
I also think Hue is the key to make it work. He has the opportunity to try to make a complete power move. It will be his patience and leadership that can/will make this happen. and bro .. I have not read a ton .. I don't pay that much attention anymore ... this crap is not worth my time .. cause that's what this is .. A CRAPFEST ... want proof ... ask yourself one simple question .. HOW MANY FOOTBALL GAMES HAVE U ENJOYED WATCHING SINCE THIS pos HAS BOUGHT THE TEAM? 1. Out of all of you, I was the one fine with Randy here. Now all of a sudden he's a POS cause you or others say so...lol not how the real world happens. I enjoyed a lot of 2014 until the melt down of Hoyer. I enjoyed most of the games cause we were in it and not being blown away like in our first 8-9 years...we never controlled the LOS. Considering "WHO" we've had as our QB over these years. Its like playing baseball without Pitching...do you really expect to win? Its an up hill battle.
Do I enjoy losing...Never did Never will - I tolerate possibly the last loss to secure a better draft position. An I mean "TOLERATE" anyhow ... the little I've read from haslam says that sashi will have the final decision on all personal moves or something along those lines until we hire a "GM" .. well as far as I can tell we haven't hired a "GM" yet unless U want to count Mr. Moneyball as our "GM" ... so as of now ... Sashi is the man ... Read away and form an opinion. Sashi is at the head of that Round Table controlling the input.
Make no mistake about this... HUE IS THE MAN. This will only work with his Leadership and he has control of the Football. All said and done...last I looked this is FOOTBALL!Its different and then again its not so different. Can Hue become (evolve) into a BB genre head of the class with tools all around him? from what I've read that's not going to be the case (in that he has the final say unless a consensus is met) ... I HOPE IT IS ... cause I look at our org. and see NO FOOTBALL PEOPLE until u hit Hue ... this "structure" makes no sense to me and thats OK .. it doesn't need to .. problem is, IT IS NOT CONDUCIVE TO AQUIRING THE TALENT TO WIN FOOTBALL GAMES ... its simply not .. how the heck does anyone think U can win football games W/O football people making personal decisions is beyond me .. And just chew on this for a second. Possibly our biggest problem is the people who think they are Football people and they try to tell the HC how to do his job regarding Personnel - that is where the infighting started and progressed. These guys positioned have a job to do and they will do it. With one strong FOOTBALL GUY with the most influence - why again I say HUE IS THE MAN! He will make this work. Paul, Andrew and Sashi...know their job and now it well.
Farmer thought he was a football person and wanted to be his way.
Banner thought he was a football person and wanted it his way.
Heckert/Holmgren thought they were football people and wanted it their way
Mangini...man I wish it worked for him...he didn't stand a chance when Kokinos flaked out on him.
Savage thought he was a football person and wanted it his way.
All of these had one thing in common (not counting the one fiasco year of Mangini) People who thought they KNEW MORE FOOTBALL THEN THE HC and wanted it their way.
This is why I said what I said, we have given HUE an opportunity to evolve into something great. With an Organization built for everyone to do their job better than good. Not worrying about controlling this and that cause they know so much football!
and this is not me endorsing Hue .. he is just the only one that I can see has any actual football experience other than negotiating contracts and drawing up naming right contracts ... I haven't changed .. I will give him 3 or 4 years before I make up my mind ... u know .. give folks a FAIR CHANCE ... something no one seems to have the patience to do today ... (just like I will Sashi and the rest of this FO ... so far I HATE what I've seen from these guys .. buts its way to early in there regimes to be making final conclusions on how they will do ... ) Fair enough, I think I am more apt to understand what is going on rather than judge what is going on. I've been doing that for a while. Instead of ripping them (remember my Groundhog day thread after the 2001 draft) well because the criticism here was so great I decided to try and understand why we took this and that. So far nothing was done...and I think cause there has not been a UNIFIED front that is needed in Football. Different yes, but make no mistake about it. Hue is King and so far (small time to view) he has been a just King listening from his generals and advisors. If Hue is king .. the early returns on his reign are very very poor ... and I may not need the 3 or 4 years to make my final conclusions ... *L* ... I think its rather well *L* that one would actually call his reign very very poor when we haven't played ONE GAME YET...you guys are funny that way...then the next words you may not need 3 or 4 years that you just said you were going to do. See you simply anticipate failure. Then is your mental structure...but how can you tell me, you are willing to give them 3-4 years to sound like you are patient and want to see this through and then say you won't. Cause right now he is Very Very Bad...lol in what way btw. His Personnel, his football, his ability to have the respect of the entire NFL, to have 148 candidates for staff text him immediately after his hire? Where remotely has he failed in anything and yet you are judging it all as Very Very poor.U and the others can talk til your blue in the face ... no way u can convince me that letting Mack and Schwartz and Gipson walk is conducive to winning football games ... NOT A SHOT IN HELL ... I'm glad you left out Benji...cause he didn't belong in that class of 3.and so far ... what I've heard him say about QB's is not making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ... are u kidding me with Kapernick??? ... not only is he not a good QB but the guys a jack ass .... See you just wish to think you are objective about what is going on. Did you read Paul at all. That we were never interested in Kap. Our interest was always RG3. We never made an offer for a trade all that BS. What HC will diss a player on another team. So now you think the guy who has made a reputation of a builder of QBs...for many years. OH KNOW HE TALKED WELL OF KAP...HE MUST BE A DOLT...if you let that influence you on his knowledge of QB then you have your mind made up my friend and just don't know it then I read today he's not sure if Pryor will be a QB or WR??? ... *LOL* .. and don't go there .. theres no need to POSTURE there .. there's not an nfl team out there scared of Prior at any position on a football field .. you'd be able to help me on the RG3 signing (IMO it was HORRIFIC but I can understand it depending on whats coming next) ... if either of the two guys were drafting can run an O that resembles the O we will have to install to give RG3 any chance to succeed ... then it makes sense .. but if these guys are more traditional QB's then this was just another HORRIFIC MOVE by a bunch of fools ... You are pulling for straws now...so you think he is incompetent because you pull out ONE SENTENCE of the Thousands he has spoken and that is what convinces you. How bout this.
In 2 games last season - HARTLINE was our emergency QB. Maybe if he is at all NOT POSTURING to have teams think that we got RG3, McCown and Pryor who has started a season in the NFL that we will not pick a QB at #2....and I know he said that pryor to RG3 but he was in our sights. Football wise he would be a #3 QB on the GAME ACTIVE list because of his WR skills hopefully, he might be cut by Labor Day for all we know. I don't know where this is going to head to. I like that its different I like the way the establishment almost are afraid for it to succeed so ridicule it at every chance. ... No one knows where its heading ... that's the buety of life ... my guess is ... its headed for the scrap heap .... cause it MAKES NO SENSE ... its would be like calling a garage owner to take over a bakery ... does he know business? yup ... but they don't know THAT BUSINESS ... I don't think you have given it a good look and understanding of what we did hear, its not just different it actually might work. You saying it doesn't make sense don't make it so...especially when you come into thinking you KNOW it makes NO SENSE without giving it a good look. And most of all give it time.like I said .. I truly hope Hue is the king but then on the other hand ... WOW ... based off the EARLY RETURNS maybe we would have been better off with Mr. Moneyball and our lawyer making personal decisions .. I don't see these same returns that you do. If you think for one second these guys and HUE came into this with gee let them walk we don't need them...no way, you would be wrong. The only one is Schwartz - but there is something else to this which can't be good for Schwartz people cause they yapped all about it...we have not.
We made solid offers to all 4...Gipson and Benji came evident pretty quick we weren't going to give the big bucks. We can debate the reasons but I agree.
Gipson said it was just time for him to move on to greener grass. Benji stated that he wanted to catch passes from a legit Franchise QB...Mack can talk all he wants about how he wanted to be here....he never said that till it was a couple weeks from FA and he was asked that question, many times and he NEVER SAID HE WANTED TO BE HERE. Schwartz again we made him a don't go to FA offer this is a valid good offer, if he REMOTELY wanted to stay here he would have signed it, that is a fact. Whether there was some Bridge burning or not we don't know for sure...but something happened. Or it could have been Mack was not signing with us which was evident and Schwartz lost a little value for keeping the 5 intact??? don't know but we did make him his BEST OFFER.
Look I've said it several times...I don't blame those football players (good ones) one bit for leaving - not a testimony of these guys but simply cause of the INSTABILITY they have experienced up to this point regarding the Browns...and a - Love the guys but get me out of here! I get it this would have been 4 HC in the last 5 seasons...ridiculous. I don't hate them, I get it but that has nothing to do with these guys. Were we going to Pay...way way more than others to keep them here...usually it works the other way when they WANT TO BE HERE...they give the TEAM DISCOUNT to stay! This isn't politics bro ... the establishment is thrilled with this development ... cause they know as long as were still in the hands of a moron owner there's only 30 other teams to worry about ... I know cause the other 17 seasons we were such a threat to them...lol really you didn't say that did you.
Actually I like what Haslam has done. I like the insertion of some power in Dee also...if you notice anyone who mentions Jimmy Haslam, they make sure to include Dee in there. ALL THE TIME...which makes me think she's involved a lot more than people think.
I think the establishment are actually afraid of what we are doing not happy, and trust me they don't wish to see it succeed why they have put their favor chips in for journalist to mock us. They are afraid cause this is a copy cat league and if the Browns are successful all the owners with teams who are not on top of the food chain...will be looking to COPY IT! Hue is the Football guy...he provides all the Football variables to those nerds who do know football and have been around football. All 3. Shashi 13 years??? While he has book wormed his way through his duties I'm sure he didn't just stop there, I'm sure he studied, observed and formulated theories. lets see here ... lawyers turned into running football teams .. is there any history of that happening we may be able to learn from .. oh ya .. we have experienced that here .. Policy had more than 13 years in AND he was promoted to team president and was trained under IMO the best football guys ever (Billicheck may be as good but theres to much "cheating" revolving around him) ... that would be Walsh/McVie .... This has nothing to do with POLICY, nothing to do with Banner (you didn't mention him) you are pulling for straws here. So Schurmer went up the ranks of coaching so we should never hire a coach who has done that. Pettine also who actually as it turns out worse than Schurmer. So we should stop hiring Football people for HC. Hue actually is the FIRST HC that we have hired with prior HC duties in the NFL.
Palmer..no, Butch...no, RAC...no Mangini YES the only other one and I thought THE GUY but that sailed out the window with the disaster of Kokinos his hand picked GM.
Schurmer NO, Chud NO, Pettine NO.
Its different already.
Sashi doesn't remind me of Policy...ONE BIT, you want to take a variable like "LAWYER" and make that a true statement? how'd that work out???? ... he ruined Frisco .. then he came here and sucked ass here also .. lets see Sashi has been with the Jags and Browns .. WHAT FOOTBALL MINDS DID HE GET TO LEARN FROM IN EITHER OF THOSE ORGS? ... Sometimes if you are brilliant to be on the foundation of running for PRESIDENT of this country. Law degree from Harvard. Possibly you are smart...you ever have a job and see the people ahead of you make mistakes and say to yourself, when I run the show I will do this or that instead. How do you out with him not learning anything in those 13 years. It is possible to be quiet, do your job, learn, learn, learn. Till you get the opportunity. I know I have done that being the only American in a Japanese Company. People would ask my... Why are you working there...I would say - I'm Learning!
ya ... I got a lot of faith in Brown cause he's been a lawyer his entire adult life and been around LOSING FOOTBALL FRANCHISES for 13 years ... sorry bro .. I can't share your optimism here .. I get it and understand it but in my optimism I know you really haven't looked this through too hard and your opinion is based on a lot of generalisms.Berry he's risen up the charts in the Personnel he has been a quick study and has formulated organization of the tools at hand. who's Berry ... apparently I missed something .. and what ACTUAL FOOTBALL EXP DOES HE HAVE??? .. has he ever worked in an org. scouting or player acquisition department? Young but an up and comer who has learned quickly and promoted...without looking up to be 100% sure I believe he was with the Colt. He also is a graduate btw from Harvard. DePodesta is a data genius in applying it to the Study of the sport and he has knowledge of football. ... this data analysis stuff is CRAP ... its football ... this was an ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIC HIRE on many levels .. Thats funny since the NFL has been using Analytic theories for years. The last 5 years has become more and more pronounced. What you said there does not go over well. Not you...but I would envision a guy sitting on the couch in Boxer shorts with a Food stained T-Shirt on with a Beer in his hand Burping and saying those words. Not the smart guy I know you as! Its not this Cluster muck - why cause in one day of FA. They didn't choose to lose all those 4 homegrown players. More so they chose to see what else is out there. I have told all (never spit on them) that I DON'T BLAME THEM! first off .. I think we need to improve some to get to the cluster muck category ... secondly .. we decided to see what else was out there???? hmmmm .. how'd that work out for us??? ... dude .. we had one of the best RT's in FA and one of the best Safeties ... THERE WASN'T MUCH BETTER OUT THERE .. Just a clarification...Chose to see what is out there instead of doing nothing as these 4 walked away from the Browns!
We had one of the best FA OTs...yeah and they were all knocking on his door right? He was OK...all of a Sudden he is Paul Bunyan...the ragging and I mean out right disrespectful posts through the last 4 years on Schwartz were only a few like myself would defend him...and it continued UNTIL...PFF came out with their STATS...lol stats for OL  Then all of a sudden to most of the board...he became real good...lol not what their lying eyes told them...but the Stats.
I will be consistent...I thought Schwartz was the WEAK LINK to our OL Chain. He could be UPGRADED...but it would probably take a top 50 pick to do so. "UPGRADE" - I've said that Then and I will say it now. He was not "GREAT" by any means.
Safety...he was getting better each season. And with a broken season (10 games?) He had his share of INTS...and we know how the players and fans are all intrigued with certain stats. INTs especially one of them and he made the Pro Bowl...I was surprised he made the pro bowl...I did think he was good enough but he missed a good portion of the season. Never to step on the field again that year. That surprised me. When I realized...ahhh the INTS.
I evaluated from day one he was out there that he was going to be good. Starting from his first year as a starter with Horton...and got better in 2014...the great year he had. 2015 he was off understandably coming back from an injury. At times he actually played Uninspired and continued to have small injuries. The last few games he became alive but that seemed to be joining his brothers who were playing their guts out and he got that inspiration again and played. But FS is not a position you utilize a high % of your cap on. I am pretty sure we made an offer well before FA and it was an offer he could refuse. God Bless him he made his money and he wasn't in love in playing here...again 4 HC in 5 Season! I probably wouldn't be either. who do we have to replace them??????????????????? especially Schwartz and Gibson ... YOUNG, TALENTED non problem childs .... GONE .... get back to me on there replacements ... Come on Diam...we are replacing them cause of the OBVIOUS...
They are GONE and not by choice. Benji maybe out of all 4 probably wanted to be here. But once the fires, Manziel burning out...even he was Man, time to move on. You tell me this HONESTLY...did they Want to be here and be Browns..you know the kind of FA that give their team a DISCOUNT to keep them...nah no freaking way and unless we gave stupid money they weren't even going to think about staying. We gave them fair offers...but call me naive? and then think they wanted to be here and we blew it...lol now that is being Naive.
We lost them to our INSTABILITY...all 4 of them this was going to be their 4th HC in 5 seasons. That is why they are gone. First and foremost. Mack .. absolutely .. the other 3 .. blaming that on the past is just something that needs to be done to keep you from facing what we both know is inevitable ... THIS THING WILL BE BLOWN UP AGAIN ... question isn't if, its when ... I wish to see how we build this thing. The 2nd tier signings seem ok...got to see how they fit in and deliver. me too .. will be ... well lets be honest ... it will more than likely be really hard to watch and my guess is more tears will be flowing .. I don't know what to expect. Horton did a great job with our D in 2013...the D was really a big culprit of not living up to expectations and why we lost in 2015.
I'm very confident we will do a lot better than 3-13...
I know they are going to prepare and go into it trying to win every game. I am sure that we have much better coaching than last year. I know we have a lot more talent than people think.
I know that RG3 is probably the BEST QB HERE SINCE 1999. How does that spell out in terms of W-L...for me I expect us to make a run at our Division...yeah I know a Homer so them expectations can't be real. Our biggest strike against us is the lack of Continuity in competing with our Division. That growth I cannot predict. And if we fail my expectations the majority of that failure will be the lack of Continuity.
But NOW THAT THEY are GONE. RT, C, FS and 3rd WR are not rare positions to fill. I agree in theory ... now we'll see how that works out for us ... we lost a VERY GOOD CENTER .... we lost what many say was a top 2 RT in this years FA class ... we lost a very good YOUNG SAFETY ... lets see just how "easy" it is for us to replace them ...
We didn't lose a QB, LT, Elite Edge Rusher, Elite Cover Corner...those are the rare positions that if we lost 4 would have been devastating.
*LOL* ... that would be a better defense if we had an ELITE player at more than one of those positions ... we have no pass rush, no cover corner or a QB ... theres a million good reasons I could see us not re-signing at least 2 of them ... problem is ... NONE OF THEM ARE THE REASON WE DIDN'T RE-SIGN THEM ... we have a ton of cap space .... we have no one we have to dump a ton of money into in the next couple years ... and pretty much every position on our team is lacking in talent .. THERE'S NO REASON 2 OF THEM SHOULDN'T BE HERE ... What I thought was humorist was how many said well lets TRADE Joe Thomas as if we were unloading talent! bro ... were obviously starting over (to re-build means u had something in place ... WE'VE NEVER HAD THAT) ... so how does not trading Joe Thomas make sense? ... now I can see your argument here ... we need a LT for the development of our QB .. and I agree .. BUT ... I can also see the other side of that coin .. I agree with U .. I would protect my young, developing QB ... but the other side definitely has a GOOD VALID POINT OF VIEW on this one ... especially seeing how we let 2/5ths (an ABOVE AVERAGE 2/5ths) of our OL just walk away ... that doesn't tell me were all that interested in protecting our young, developing QB .. Its not the Sashi, Berry, Paul D, Hue Fab 4 that will keep us down...its if we Fire all and start over. That is the biggest key. Once and for all have STABILITY and Continuity! I agree it won't be those 4 ... ITS THE MAN ABOVE THEM ... we been having this continuity discussion for years and years bro ... and like I have always said ... continuity for the sake of continuity is just STUPID!!! ... hire good people that do there jobs COMPETENTLY and then u shoot for continuity ... we could have left Farmer and Pettine together for 40 years ... would they have improved?? .. you'd think .. but would we have even made it to the Super Bowl just cause of continuity with those two???? ...
Why trading Joe Thomas is not rational.
One you are talking about losing Center and RT as mentioned in THEORY the skill set for those two positions are out there in numbers to choose from. LT sorry 2nd only to QB in skill set out there. You talk about losing 2/5th of the OL...but ignore the 3/5th 60% that remains...so throw it out to the trash. And the 3 one is probably the BEST EVER category the other two very good!
Silly to me cause it fall under the category of Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
Second we happen to not be in a compete BLOW IT UP MODE...proof being we aren't thinking of trading Joe Thomas. The only possibility I see is if we choose to draft Tunsil and then Auction off Thomas right afterwards...I don't recommend it but I can understand it. I'd rather have Tunsil play RT and when JT retires we got our LT...the rare guy on the OL. Pettine/Farmer you are 100% correct and I was very wrong in thinking they could have flourished here. If I knew then what I have found out now about the constant in fighting and disorganization as we had too many football guy wanting it their way...lol
But mostly cause I didn't realize how bad a HC Pettine was man I knew him to be an excellent DC but I was in denial as he made game day mistakes and his staff...although I liked Flip and the QB Coaching last year. Could have grown but for the most part, didn't realize the disrespect the team on a whole had for the Staff...never expected that. My bad for Homering that.
In closing thanks for the discussion. It reminds me of old times.
You pretty much have disappeared with BQ...man we understand your love of ND nobody thinks ill of you for that...heck you convinced me...lol
Please post more even though I know we won't be on the same page often. Love ya big guy!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,598
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,598 |
The articles with the picture of TRich running away from a gaping hole and into the back of his linemen started coming out the off season after his rookie campaign. I'm sure that type of retrospective review is what convinced Banner to pull the trigger.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
We the fans might over complicate things - I think they have a plan well in placed.
What it means is:
The last 10 seasons we have those words spoken by everyone about a successful team. The GM and HC have to be connected at the hip and work as one mind and goal. Regime after Regime we had in fighting and Power issues...with every Regime. Maybe not Holmgren's...it just Sucked. Cause the HC was a puppet. Still the infrastructure of the Regime was very Flawed.
I joked about the HEAD of the ROUND TABLE...but it actually describes what I envision. When we first hired Sashi...not the mumbo jumbo that has been talked about. We hired him to end the infighting and make an organization that can work as one mind one goal. What has been alluding us all these years. That is what I meant.I know exactly what u meant bro ... It's just not that complicated .... U don't choose a lead sled dog in the middle of the race, u choose the lead sled dog well before the race begins .... The reason we have stunk has ZERO to do with ORG. STRUCTURE and the fact Haslam's left room for a power struggle within his org, structure, it has 100% to do with HORRIBLE HIRES!!! Do u really think if Pett or Farmer knew one of them was the lead dog things we would somehow have acquired better players???? ... These guys had no clue ... We got bad players cause they both STUNK at there jobs not cause they didn't get along ... Well how has that worked out for the Browns. I'm all ears for a new structure...round table and Sashi being King Arthur. See above ... HIRE GOOD FOOTBALL PEOPLE and just like lucky charms your problems "magically disappear" and then everything tastes delicious .... *L* ... It's not that complicated ... Your GM/HC work together with there staffs in whatever "power" shape u prefer .... And like I said before ... If u need someone to referee that your SCREWED ANYHOW .... It seems like all u guys wanna do is add more layers to the system ,... Now we're gonna add an analytical layer and a presidential layer to the football side of things ,,,, It's kinda like the gov't throwing money at every problem we have when almost NEVER is the lack of money the problem ... It appears to me Jimmy is trying to fix his HORRIBLE HIRING and to a minor extent his structure FAILINGS by adding layers of management .... BRILLIANT!!! 1. Out of all of you, I was the one fine with Randy here. Now all of a sudden he's a POS cause you or others say so...lol not how the real world happens. I enjoyed a lot of 2014 until the melt down of Hoyer. I enjoyed most of the games cause we were in it and not being blown away like in our first 8-9 years...we never controlled the LOS. Considering "WHO" we've had as our QB over these years. Its like playing baseball without Pitching...do you really expect to win? Its an up hill battle.
Do I enjoy losing...Never did Never will - I tolerate possibly the last loss to secure a better draft position. An I mean "TOLERATE" Ummmm ... I actually liked Randy as an owner .... He FAILED at his hires but he hired them and let them do their jobs ... He is not the POS I was referring to ... Love the fact that u gave reasons why the product on the field has STUNK since Jimmy has been here and didn't say watching the product Haslam has put out has been HORRIFIC .... Kinda makes my point for me .... He's had 2 constants in his ownership stint .... CHANGE and. HORRIBLE HORRIBLE PRODUCT!!!!! See you just wish to think you are objective about what is going on. Did you read Paul at all. That we were never interested in Kap. Our interest was always RG3. We never made an offer for a trade all that BS. What HC will diss a player on another team. So now you think the guy who has made a reputation of a builder of QBs...for many years. OH KNOW HE TALKED WELL OF KAP...HE MUST BE A DOLT...if you let that influence you on his knowledge of QB then you have your mind made up my friend and just don't know it 1. What QB's are u referring to? ... I won't lie ... I had to look it up cause when I thought back I didn't know witch QB's he mentored ... Upon looking it up .... I DIDN'T SEE ANY ...... He's never even been a QB coach ,,,,, ya ... I know .... O-Coordinators have lots to do with QB's ... Even looking at that .... VERY CONFUSED AS TO WITCH QB'S HE "GROOMED" ... 2. I AM MORE THAN LIKELY THE most objective person here ,,,... Don't confuse the fact that I think this is a BRUTAL PLAN DOOMED FOR FAILURE and the VERY VERY VERY EARLY returns on FA give me the first opportunity to watch the FIRST PART of the plan unfold ... And the results to me point towards us BEING MONEYBALLERS!!!!! I am allowed to have an opinion as things unfold while holding out final judgement .... No? ....
Actually I like what Haslam has done. And there in lies our difference of opinion .... I think this guys is in so far over his head it's not even funny ,,, and I think this BS structure he's put in place is HORRIFIC .... And I am talking about MONEYBALL ..... Thats funny since the NFL has been using Analytic theories for years. The last 5 years has become more and more pronounced. What you said there does not go over well. Not you...but I would envision a guy sitting on the couch in Boxer shorts with a Food stained T-Shirt on with a Beer in his hand Burping and saying those words. Not the smart guy I know you as! What I find funny tab is the fact that u think our woes since Jimmy bought the team have ANYTHING TO DO WITH OUR USE OF ANALYTICS .... That's funny ... U wanna know sump tin the man with the mustard stained shirt would have said .... Well look no further than what u said ... Yup ... If we'd of had better analytics I'm sure we'd be on the brink of good things .... PS. What are analytics when u boil them down .... STATS ,,,,, Anyone remember ..... WHO ARE STATS FOR? .....  .... Bro ... I skipped more than I replied to simply cause this is way to long as is ... I left the board before we evened opened Training Camp the year BQ crapped the bed ,,,, I said before TC that I wouldn't be back for a long long time if ever ...... I actually came back during the year after BQ HAD BEEN BENCHED JUST TO Take my medicine ,..... I don't run and hide .... Not who I am Mr. TABBER ,,,, I hope all is well my friend .... Shoot me a PM and let me know how the boys are doing ...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,850 |
I would envision a guy sitting on the couch in Boxer shorts with a Food stained T-Shirt on with a Beer in his hand Burping and saying those words. Just leave me out of this. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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