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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I would be interested to see what % in the analytical equation is weighted to how drafting a QB at #2 has worked out ... An interesting thought. Not that it means anything, but here are all of the qb's selected #2 in the draft since 1970: RGIII, Donovan McNabb, Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer, Bert Jones, Archie Manning.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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I would be interested to see what % in the analytical equation is weighted to how drafting a QB at #2 has worked out ... An interesting thought. Not that it means anything, but here are all of the qb's selected #2 in the draft since 1970: RGIII, Donovan McNabb, Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer, Bert Jones, Archie Manning. Looks about 50/50 to me.
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All Pro
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DePodesta values scouting. DePodesta also values analytics. These two things can work together. In fact they must. The way players are scouted may change with the advent of this new RFID technology but it's still scouting. I don't understand people who are saying that the "football guys" won't get their say...what do we think they've been running the combine for all these years for? Why bother keeping college stats? On no, those dirty numbers! Scouts should just be able to look at a player and decide whether or not their a hall of famer! That's a load of crap, analytics has been used since the first caveman pulled the first double switch to get the pitching matchup he wanted in the Stegasaur League. It's simply using numbers to predict outcomes and trying to influence the game based on those predictions. Let's stop acting like it's some new fancy voodoo that none of us can possibly understand.
Last in, first out, the sign of a true champion!![[Linked Image from i301.photobucket.com]](http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59/Stetson1376/c8f5fed9-fc01-4b87-bda3-b2b53f0b16cb_zpse708e05e.jpg)
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I think "scouting" won over the analytics in Bridgewater vs. Manziel. Which would you rather have now? What in the world would make you think that? The study was done and Teddy was the choice. Someone stepped in and overruled the study and decided to take Manziel. The scouts did that? Get outta here w/that BS!!! I think it was the same guy who is still here and running the show. Johnny made more marketing sense to Jimmy than Teddy did. For two straight years, people protected Farmer by saying that Haslam made that pick. Now, Farmer is gone and you are saying that it wasn't Jimmy, but the scouts? WTF???????????????? You guys have no limits on how low you will go.
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There's been a lot of revisionist history on here as of late.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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They just make crap up, say it a lot, and it becomes the "truth."
The accountability of posters on this board is at an all-time low.
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I consider Farmer a "scout." Bridgewater's bad pro day scared him. He went with what he saw in a limited sample over what the data said. Ray Farmer says Jimmy didn't make the call. Banner ordered the study but was let go before the draft. He was the analytics guy. Farmer is the football guy/"scout". Farmer picked Johnny. Don't let a little thing like direct quotations get in the way of your revisionist history. Looking at information and presenting an opinion on it. That's really low. I dunno, maybe I'll cheat on my diet next. Maybe I'll drive 60 in a 55 zone. The horror.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg) You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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I think "scouting" won over the analytics in Bridgewater vs. Manziel. Which would you rather have now? What in the world would make you think that? The study was done and Teddy was the choice. Someone stepped in and overruled the study and decided to take Manziel. The scouts did that? Get outta here w/that BS!!! I think it was the same guy who is still here and running the show. Johnny made more marketing sense to Jimmy than Teddy did. For two straight years, people protected Farmer by saying that Haslam made that pick. Now, Farmer is gone and you are saying that it wasn't Jimmy, but the scouts? WTF???????????????? You guys have no limits on how low you will go. I think Haslam made the JFF pick but I think Farmer made the Gilber pick and I know that he said that we didn't need to take any WR's early. There's plenty of blame to go around. We did have an analytical report that said Bridgewater was the QB though and a football guy was in the GM role at the time and that pick was not made.
Last edited by DeputyDawg; 04/12/16 09:13 PM.
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I agree w/that. Just sick of Grimm and others making crap up to further their argument.
I really think we should at least be accountable. Opinions are great, but deliberately trying to mislead people w/lies is flat-out wrong!
It's amazing how many "opinions" are taken as truth on here because of how posters present them.
The other day, farmer was talking about how Pet wouldn't play young players. I didn't blame him.........that LIE was told over and over again last year. I provided contrary factual evidence and he was surprised.
A couple of days ago, Daman posted something about how Pryor had his best year under Hue. I didn't blame him. He read the lie from another poster on this board. I correctly pointed out that Pryor didn't throw a pass while Hue was coaching there.
We used to battle all the time on the boards. It got ugly. Often. We didn't care much about this politically correct BS. However, almost every poster [except for a few] didn't resort to lies to win a stupid argument. Unfortunately, we have a lot of new posters that do it all the time.
People read this stuff. They repeat it. Others believe it. State your opinions all you like. Argue like crazy. Be strong in your stances. But man, be honest!!!! Please?????????? Don't resort to trickery and lies to win a stupid football argument. Show some freaking integrity, people!
The scouts chose Manziel over Teddy...........Pffftttt.......what BS!
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I agree w/that. Just sick of Grimm and others making crap up to further their argument.
I really think we should at least be accountable. Opinions are great, but deliberately trying to mislead people w/lies is flat-out wrong!
It's amazing how many "opinions" are taken as truth on here because of how posters present them.
The other day, farmer was talking about how Pet wouldn't play young players. I didn't blame him.........that LIE was told over and over again last year. I provided contrary factual evidence and he was surprised.
A couple of days ago, Daman posted something about how Pryor had his best year under Hue. I didn't blame him. He read the lie from another poster on this board. I correctly pointed out that Pryor didn't throw a pass while Hue was coaching there.
We used to battle all the time on the boards. It got ugly. Often. We didn't care much about this politically correct BS. However, almost every poster [except for a few] didn't resort to lies to win a stupid argument. Unfortunately, we have a lot of new posters that do it all the time.
People read this stuff. They repeat it. Others believe it. State your opinions all you like. Argue like crazy. Be strong in your stances. But man, be honest!!!! Please?????????? Don't resort to trickery and lies to win a stupid football argument. Show some freaking integrity, people!
The scouts chose Manziel over Teddy...........Pffftttt.......what BS! ok quick question. where did the info come from that said Jimmy made the JF pick? just asking cuz I can't find it anywhere.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Okay, quick question. I am reading my post that you quoted. I can't find where I said that. Wanna help me out?
I have another quick question for you. Did you research Grimm's claim that scouting chose Manziel over Teddy and analytics did not?
Btw...........before you start backtracking or making new stuff up............there were hundreds and hundreds of posts that defended Farmer by saying that Haslam was the one who made the call to draft Johnny.
Now, I know all of you "objective" posters won't back me up on this one. You will just ignore it like you have in other instances when I am debating these guys..........but hey.....as long as we all know where each other stands. It's all good.
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The study was done and Teddy was the choice. Someone stepped in and overruled the study and decided to take Manziel.
The scouts did that? Get outta here w/that BS!!!
I think it was the same guy who is still here and running the show. Johnny made more marketing sense to Jimmy than Teddy did.
For two straight years, people protected Farmer by saying that Haslam made that pick. Now, Farmer is gone and you are saying that it wasn't Jimmy, but the scouts?
WTF????????????????
are you saying now that Jimmy had nothing to do with the pick?
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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lol now now, I don't make stuff up. that would be childish. I provide direct links when I post...do I not?
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Alright.............he is calling me out.
I understand that you guys don't like me, but are you really not going to step-up and say that many posters said over and over and over again how Manziel was Haslam's pick and not Farmer's?
Really guys?
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lol now now, I don't make stuff up. that would be childish. I provide direct links when I post...do I not? You do post links. I don't think you make stuff up. I wasn't accusing you of that. I just think your interpretations of the written word are off at times.
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lol now now, I don't make stuff up. that would be childish. I provide direct links when I post...do I not? You do post links. I don't think you make stuff up. I wasn't accusing you of that. I just think your interpretations of the written word are off at times. oh ok well you did say for me to stop making stuff up...just wanted to counter that I do not.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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Are you sure you are not confusing what I am saying about other posters w/yourself?
LOL man.......I question your reading skills. Not your character.
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I think the guy who wrote that article is stating his opinion, judging the way DePosesta thinks, and assuming what he will do. Too many people on here are taking that guy's opinion as fact. Even to the degree of saying, "DePodesta is saying...", when he didn't. It's the writer of the article who is doing all the saying. I didn't really pay attention as to weather Depo actually said the things ... so I went back and looked .. DePodesta would like decisions to be informed by 60 percent data, 40 percent scouting. Present-day NFL is more 70 percent scouting and 30 percent data. DePodesta won't just ponder scouts' performance but question their very existence. that looks like he got it from Depo ... now .. 2 questions arise .. 1. when did he get that from Depo? .. was this what he wanted to do in baseball or is this how he wants it to work here ... 2. this may be what Depo wants ... doesn't mean he's going to get it .. I would agree those two questions bring a TON OF DOUBT to what these "statements" actually mean .... BUT ... I will go back to what I said yesterday ... WE DIDN'T HIRE AND SPEND THAT KIND OF MONEY ON DEPO TO BE A BIT PLAYER ... IMO ... before the end of FA next year Haslam will be faced with another decision ... its either gonna be the geeks or the football folks ... THANKS FOR POINTING OUT THIS MAY NOT BE FROM DEPO .. Diam, in regards to the 60/40 split... this could very well be a generalized goal. If I can find it, I'll post it later, but DePo also was reported as saying he's been asking a ton of questions about everything as the FA period kicked off. His job is to develop systems and processes on an organizational level. This goes beyond talent assessment and acquisition... this will include things like strength and conditioning, nutrition, and how long they stay on the massage table. The critics are right: this ISN'T baseball. DePo has a lot of work ahead of him in terms of identifying what kinds of statistical data are relevant, and what isn't. I seriously doubt that within these few months DePo's already developed and instituted the analytics process we'll be using. Critics also try to point out he has no prior football experience. It doesn't appear that he had all that much in the way of baseball experience before he went to MLB either... And if we're getting all that RFID data this year, it boggles my mind that a number of posters don't see having one of top minds in statistical analysis as part of our FO as a good thing  IMO too much credit (blame) for the FA season so far is being given to analytics. I do;t think our system is in place, but that doesn't mean decisions can't and aren't being made based upon a philosophy and vision already in place.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Alright.............he is calling me out.
I understand that you guys don't like me, but are you really not going to step-up and say that many posters said over and over and over again how Manziel was Haslam's pick and not Farmer's?
Really guys?
yes people have said it was jimmy's pick. that does not make it the truth... if a 100 people told me the sky is orange all day i would still it's blue...I do try to take the things I read from player quotes at face value...assuming they (the players) aren't lying to the general public. believe me I have looked and looked for anything that would tell me Jimmy made the pick and I cannot find it anywhere and research is a strong suite of mine.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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believe me it has zero to do with me liking or not liking you. just so you know.
I just happen to be on the other end of the rainbow on this subject...I do happen to agree with no QB is worth our #2 pick...for me it goes the whole first round...so sometimes I agree and sometimes I do not and try to provide links to back up my stance on it is all.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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it boggles my mind that a number of posters don't see having one of top minds in statistical analysis as part of our FO as a good thing notallthere A number of posters? Care to name them? Seriously..........not all of them, just about 5 of them. I'll be waiting.
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Alright.............he is calling me out.
I understand that you guys don't like me, but are you really not going to step-up and say that many posters said over and over and over again how Manziel was Haslam's pick and not Farmer's?
Really guys?
Yes, there was a lot of speculation that the Manziel pick was Haslam's baby, but to be honest Vers, I don't recall what the basis of that rumor was. I do recall however, that you and I were on the same wave length that IF it was Haslam who made the pick, there were a number of reasons that would make sense to include Manziel being used for the marketing bump that he was sure to bring. At the time Manziel panning out was a crap shoot, but what WAS known was that any team who drafted him was going to make a butt load of $$$. Like I Said, I know we came up with some fairly reasonable possible motives for Haslam making the call, but I don't remember how Haslam making the all entered the conversation.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Thank you. I don't know who made the pick. I thought those who defended Farmer by saying it was Haslam had a point, but I never thought it was a fact.
Look, I just brought the crap up because Grimm said that the scouts picked Manziel over Teddy. I think that is complete BS! There is absolutely no evidence of that.
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analytics did not?
Btw...........before you start backtracking or making new stuff up............ hey.... lol this is where I got the making stuff up came from
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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it boggles my mind that a number of posters don't see having one of top minds in statistical analysis as part of our FO as a good thing notallthere A number of posters? Care to name them? Seriously..........not all of them, just about 5 of them. I'll be waiting. How about anyone who uses the term Moneyball in a disparaging manner in order to discredit DePo... Also include the "he has no football experience" crowd that tries to use that to discredit him. Don't tell me that those posters don't exist.... 
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Hmmmmm.........I am trying to think of all of those posters. Can't come up w/many. And I wonder if those posters question Haslam and Sashi more than DePo?
Now.............would you like to play a game of turn-about is fair play?
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Thank you. I don't know who made the pick. I thought those who defended Farmer by saying it was Haslam had a point, but I never thought it was a fact.
Look, I just brought the crap up because Grimm said that the scouts picked Manziel over Teddy. I think that is complete BS! There is absolutely no evidence of that. Well, I for one will admit that I did buy in to the "unified front" that they put on last preseason. I thought that with Farmer's suspension Pet had made a power move and my belief at the time was that it was going to be good for the team... ...yeah... I may have been a bit off with that one lol As for the scouts, I don't know man. There really isn't much in the way of facts that explain ANYTHING that has happened with this FO lol...
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Hmmmmm.........I am trying to think of all of those posters. Can't come up w/many. And I wonder if those posters question Haslam and Sashi more than DePo?
Now.............would you like to play a game of turn-about is fair play? Is that like Ring around the Roses or Duck, Duck, Goose???  But you obviously concede my point that there ARE indeed posters who use the term moneyball and his lack of football "experience" in order to discredit him and what he brings to the table. Here's my view on the whole moneyball thing: statistical analysis is about identifying data, relevant data, and creating systems and processes where you use that data to improve whatever your goal is: a MLB team, an NFL team, crime reduction, teaching techniques, etc.. My take is that you would hire a guy like DePo to create systems and processes for all of those different fields. As for Sashi and Haslam... I'm not going to comment on them at this point of my post because Sashi and Haslam are irrelevant to my point about DePo.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Concede? Is this a contest? I don't see a whole lot of posters bashing DePo. I never have. In fact, he is the one guy I praised.
I think the issue that us "negative" posters have is that Haslam still owns the team. To a lesser extent, we might doubt Sashi because he was in charge on negotiating contracts before he got his big promotion. He failed to renegotiate new contracts w/our important players.
But........I think the biggest issue we have is w/Haslam.
Why anyone would trust him is beyond me. His company had to play hundreds of millions of dollars because they ripped people off. The freaking FBI was involved. He has made several promises and broke them all. The Browns have focused mightily on marketing and have been cheap w/their players.
Yet, those of us who question the direction of this team are the crazy ones? LOL man.
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Concede? Is this a contest? I don't see a whole lot of posters bashing DePo. I never have. In fact, he is the one guy I praised.
I think the issue that us "negative" posters have is that Haslam still owns the team. To a lesser extent, we might doubt Sashi because he was in charge on negotiating contracts before he got his big promotion. He failed to renegotiate new contracts w/our important players.
But........I think the biggest issue we have is w/Haslam.
Why anyone would trust him is beyond me. His company had to play hundreds of millions of dollars because they ripped people off. The freaking FBI was involved. He has made several promises and broke them all. The Browns have focused mightily on marketing and have been cheap w/their players.
Yet, those of us who question the direction of this team are the crazy ones? LOL man. Contest? No, just trying to have a conversation, amicable if at all possible. I don't recall stating that you personally had an issue with DePo. I do recall writing "a number of posters" did and when you asked who, I defined what types of comments I interpreted as being unfair to DePo. Now if you want to needlessly include yourself with "a number of posters" when it doesn't apply to you, that's 100% on you. I What I don't understand is if you like DePo, why are you being so argumentative over a point that we should likely agree on? Unless you don't think other posters are being as unfair to DePo as I do. If that's the case, simply say so. I still don't know what Haslam has to do with my points about DePo.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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I think Haslam has a lot to do w/everything. And you not mentioning him does not diminish that fact. Haslam has hired and fired numerous people. He says he has a plan. He says he will stick w/it. He then blows things up. That can not be denied.
Thus, as long as Haslam is here..........you can blow smoke up people's butts as long as you want to about DePo and others, but nothing has really changed.
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Nothing has changed....what....ONLY constant has been Haslam's ownership...AND it is funny that Dee has been very visible as "co-owner" so that's change also....bottomline is owners do as they wish....GO Browns!!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
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BOTTOM LINE: this is a f'n EXPERIMENT ... Haslam has failed so MISERABLY he has turned our BELOVED BROWNS into a frickin SCIENCE EXPERIMENT!!!!!! LOL, It was a mess when he bought the team. Clearly, he hasn't succeeded in turning it around. The race doesn't always go to the swift, but to those who keep on running. For better or worse, he (Haslam) keeps on trying.. As for the Moneyball thing, I'm not sure I'll ever have a handle on it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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J/C
Maybe people believe Haslam is trying to improve the team because it is in his best interest to produce a winner. He's a successful businessman, not a completely self-destructive individual. Teams make more money when they win. With the salary cap/floor the money spent on players doesn't have all that much disparity between teams over time. He's invested in infrastructure, not been cheap and cut corners in that respect. Sure he's trying to milk all the money he can out of the franchise, but that only makes him want to win more, not less. He's paying multiple coaches and executives at the same time, but somehow that's trying to save money?
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
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BOTTOM LINE: this is a f'n EXPERIMENT ... Haslam has failed so MISERABLY he has turned our BELOVED BROWNS into a frickin SCIENCE EXPERIMENT!!!!!! Every time you change your GM and Head Coach it's an experiment. We had had ton's of experiments since 1999 and they have all failed. This experiment however is being done under a microscope, and there are so many members of the old guard in the NFL who want to see it fail. IMO this will either fail and make the Browns even a bigger joke than they already are, or we will come out looking brilliant. I am not buying into either result. I am not going to abandon ship and swim away. I am also not going to go down with the ship and drown. I have climbed into the life boat wearing a life jacket. Armed with food, snacks, and beveages, and I am going to sit here like a woman hooked on the soap opera's in the 60's and watch the Cleveland Browns soap opera unfold. Either way it will at least be Entertaining.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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...jc...
Concerning how NFL teams handle the decision making process, today most teams use a breakdown of approx. 70% scouts opinion and 30% analytic data.
When it comes to the decision making process of the Cleveland Browns, DePodesta would like that to change those (70/30%s) percentages dramatically with 60% of decision making process "using analytics" and 40% 'scouting'. In other words, Depodesta wants control of the decision making process for the Browns.
I seriously doubt that any football coach is going to be comfortable with that sort of "power grab" by the analytics side. If the moneyball folks don't strike an acceptable balance with the football guys, we could see conflict between the two groups before the season even starts. So how much did analytics play in the decision making process during free agency?
The Browns results during the free agency period would be a clear indication that analytics is already the driving force behind the decision making process of this franchise and DePodesta is in control, with the blessing of Haslam.
The next great test will be the draft..maybe the most critical draft this franchise faced in a long time, picking
at #2 and #32 and near the top of every round and with 3 additional compensatory picks.
If Depodesta is a team player, willing to compromise with the football people, the "overall plan" will have a better chance of success. But I'm not so sure that DePodesta is a team player. If DePodesta was given total control of the decision making process by Haslam, there is no incentive for him to compromise.
If DePodesta isn't big on compromising with Hue and the coaching staff, it might not be long before some of the coaches have had enough of the great experiment and are ready to move on?
Last edited by mac; 04/13/16 10:35 AM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Legend
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Legend
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Mac, Depo doesn't want the power. He wants to process to reflect the percentages you mention. I don't know if those percentages are correct or not, but that isn't my point.
He is there to see the process through. The entire team is going to be making the decisions on which player they finally choose.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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But I'm not so sure that DePodesta is a team player. If DePodesta was given total control of the decision making process by Haslam
Mac: That is a huge leap there from what is likely the "general understanding". While I don't pretend to say it's not factual (for I don't know), do you have any link(s) from which your assertion is drawn?
Last edited by bbrowns32; 04/13/16 10:56 AM.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Mac, Depo doesn't want the power. He wants to process to reflect the percentages you mention.
DePodesta made his intentions known in the article already posted...the article title was something like 'I thought he was a genius until...
DePo clearly stated that he wanted the decision making process to be based on 60% analytics and 40% scouting, meaning the use of analytics would now carry more weight than scouting.
You can claim that DePo doesn't want more power, but based on free agency, it looks as though DePo got control over the decision making process.
The way I see it, that translates into more power to run the franchise DePodesta's way.
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