DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Brady Quinn holdout on the horizon

Honestly Diam,I am a "Browns fan FIRST" which I'm sure you are as well.
(even with the "man crush" you have on BQ)


But it is unbelievable that many people seem to feel BQ should say "to hell with the money and the money I'll make for the first four or five years of my career". I mean,what kind of moron would do that?

Posters here are being "single minded". All they care about is "BQ getting to camp on time!". Bottom line,they could care less if BQ made minimum wage,as long as he's "here". They promote him being here and accepting "whatever is offered" to do so.

Sorry,but this decision is HUGE for this kid and he's NEVER negotiated such a complex and long range contract in his life.

People need to realise this is "just business as usual" in the NFL and quit making so much drama out of it because the kid has the common sense God gave him at birth to be looking out for his future. There's two sides to every coin. I guess people on here feel they shouldn't get "fair market pay and benifits" when they go to work. Because they sure as hell don't seem to care if he does.

All they care about is "him being to camp on time" irregardless of anything else. Some folks need to get it in their heads that in "the real world of owners/players and agents" it's a "business first" and they treat it as such. To us? It's a "sport first".

Once people can latch on to the reality of that,maybe they won't take "business negotiations" as some kind of "personal insult" to the team.

JMHO

God I sure wish we could get to camp already,,, I'm tired of all these kinda stories Let's get to football for cryin out loud

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our first offers were crap.

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Wow.

I wish I could get to the point in my life when I can refer to that outrageous amount of money as "crap."

Peen, do you really believe that Quinns numbers will have an affect on JT at all? I mean they were pick 21 spots apart...

I think it was 19.....but it could....if Quinn works up a good number of slots, I know that if I was Joe's agent I would use that as a bargaining point.

The one factor we do have in our favor is Joe is a O-lineman who doesn't have traditional upward flex in talks, and a qb who traditionally does.....but in the end, if I was Joe or his agent, I would want the Quinn numbers before I signed anything.

Here is the reason....it is much harder to write incentives into a O-linemans contract because they are much harder to track....or possibly very nebulous.....it is hard to set some bounds that work when doing that....for a qb....it is pretty easy for all to understand.

Joe needs real numbers....he was picked #3 overall, and I doubt he is going to be real keen on being paid a tad more than a qb picked #22 in this contract cycle.

That or we can expect to hear Joe is looking for 3-4 year terms.

JMO.

It'll all work out in the end, I just have that feeling. Both seem like high character guys. Joe seems like a guy who will sign something with fair market value.

Quinn's gonna be more difficult due to where he was projected and his position, but I think if he holds out, he won't hold out for too long.

I love how its a holdout on the horizon because he said he's going to let his agent handle his contract.

My how people and the media can spin things.

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But it is unbelievable that many people seem to feel BQ should say "to hell with the money and the money I'll make for the first four or five years of my career". I mean,what kind of moron would do that?

Posters here are being "single minded". All they care about is "BQ getting to camp on time!". Bottom line,they could care less if BQ made minimum wage,as long as he's "here". They promote him being here and accepting "whatever is offered" to do so.

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What is funny is your comment. I have not seen many saying anything like that.

Once you wade through it and get to the "thrux" of their message,many did. Just not in so many words.

I think you may be "reading" a little too much. Before I posted to you I went back through the thread to see what you were talking about. I guess I don't see it the same way as you.

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I think it was 19

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Geez, I gotta get a new set of finger calculators or something

Yeah, I see what your saying... makes sense to me! Thanks

j/c

I'm sure I'm echoing a number of the other replies when I say that this report is just a bunch of crap. Quinn says he's not involved in the talks, and the Browns and Condon haven't talked yet. We still have over a month to go here, people!

Do I expect Quinn to hold out? Yes. But there's nothing in this report that makes it seem certain. It's just throwing an attention grabbing headline on something that doesn't require it.

JMHO

Pit, am I putting the final say on Quinn, Yes, I guess I am.

Now I have NO IDEA how these negotiations actually go down, but I can take a pretty well educated guess. All I am saying is that Brady has the FINAL SAY in agreeing to a contract or not. Of course his agent will advise him one way or the other, but if the agent "truly" has his clients best interest in mind, what he is really going to do is make sure there is no wording or clauses that could be detrimental to BQ, and that he has a "fair" deal. The catch is going to be what they consider "fair". Quinn's idea of fair may be different that Condon's. What I believe screws things up is when a player and agent want a deal above fair market value.

I guess to make it pretty simple and short........yes I do beleive that the player has the final say on his contract, not the agent.

But............. , the team has to negotiate in fair market value also. Brady's contract is going to be difficult. He was slated as a top ten player by most teams (I beleive), yet he went 22, so what is "fair market value"? Is it top ten?
Is it 22? is it somewhere in the middle. This is where I beleive Brady holds the key, what does he tell Condon he wants, top 10 money or something else.

If Brady holds out for an extended period of time, it will really hurt his cause, will I blame it all on Brady, no I won't, because the team and Condon both play huge roles, but BQ DOES play into the equation also.

Hope that made a little sense .

It makes a ton of sense.

My point was,that NFL players often have short careers due to injuries. A rookie who is putting the first five years of his professional career at stake,also has a responsibility to try to get what he feels is fair. Because it may be his ONLY contract of his career.

It's a very important and critical step in their life. Probably the most important decision they have made to this point in their life on a professional and contracrual level.

In many cases the team tries to lowball the player as well. My point is it is "purely business from BOTH sides". And in many cases,it's not just the player and the agent who are partly to blame in this equasion.

As fans,it's quite easy to lose sight of that.As the time for signing and camp gets closer,people get far more antsy,they start "placing blame" on why the player isn't in camp.

And believe me,I've seen players hold out before. If and when that happens,the net result of that generaly ends up with the fans placing that blame on the greed of either the player or the agent. As Browns fans,naturaly people can't see that their beloved "team" couldn't possibly be a part of the problem.


It's just sheer human nature and a trend I've seen an ample supply of over years of posting on these boards. Somehow,often times,fans simply can't see both sides of the coin. Let's face it,if you make 50k a year,it's hard to understand a 22 year old kid turning down 2.1 mil. a year and asking for 3 mil.


I can grasp that concept quite readily. But the fact of the matter is,the second QB to be drafted in any draft will command a little higher salary than a player at a different position would in that same draft slot. Hopefully there will be no hold out. But if one occurs,don't be shocked to see people "piling on" Brady and Condin. Even if they don't really know the details of what's going on behind the scenes. If it doesn't happen that way?

I'll be shocked!


Because it's always been that way before.

I gotcha, It makes it even easier when the Fans don't like a player or the agent.

I think that will make this even more interesting because it seems like BQ is generally a well liked young man, he is well spoken, seems to carry himself well, and was born and raised a Browns fan , people WANT to like him.

Then there is Condon, he seems to have a pretty bad reputation for his players holding out and being a cut-throat when it comes to negotiations. It SEEMS that most people allready have a negative impression of Condon.

Then there is the third player, our beloved Browns that can do no wrong .
You know most of us general fans are going to take the teams side and actually it seems that most "insiders" say that the Browns are not a bad team to deal with, as opposed to say the Bears or possibley the Patriots.

So allready the Browns have one leg up with the Fans, Brady's like-able-ness (I think I just made that word up), gives him a little time with the fans, then comes Condon who doesn't have much rope at all.

This should be a real interesting negotiation, at least watching how us fans react. I will try my best to be a neutral observer but I know that if a hold-out becomes lengthy, I too will begin to side with the team the longer it drags out.

To be Honest, a slight hold-out would not bother me too much because I would like to see Charlie at least start the season anyway, and I believe this would make Romeo's decision a little easier for some BQ fans to swallow if he does hold out.

I have a question for anybody in the know. I will ask it here since the agent's piece of the pie is included in the thread.

Say an agent is getting 5%. What is the 5% on and when is it paid? So in Bents case for example, is the agent making 5% of $36M or only on the guaranteed money? Is he paid only when Bents is paid? If not... does he have to repay it? (oh the things to worry about in the off season!)

It would be paid when the player gets his first bonus check deposited.

I can only assume here.....but the amount is probably based on the value of the contract....or if it is on the guaranteed portion, it is probably a higher percentage......after all, it isn't the agents fault a player is cut.

Complicated Quinn talks under way

Wednesday, June 06, 2007Mary Kay CabotPlain Dealer Reporter

The Browns have met recently with Brady Quinn's agent Tom Condon and are bracing themselves for potentially challenging negotiations for the rookie quarterback, who tumbled to No. 22 in the draft.

"It's somewhat unique," said Browns General Manager Phil Savage. "On the surface you'd like to think it's the 22nd pick in the draft . . . but obviously, their viewpoint is going to be that there's a premium with the quarterback position.

"There's going to be some natural argument built into this negotiation. We know that, but at the same time we've tried to get out in front of it and get in front of his people and say, 'Hey this is kind of where we're going to be operating from and this is what our thinking is.' "

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Condon, formerly of IMG but now with Creative Artists Agency, met with Savage in Cleveland two weeks ago and the Browns presented him with their opening proposal.

But talks will be much more complicated than those for a routine No. 22-overall pick. For starters, the Browns said leading up to the draft Quinn was one of their top five players. Then, they traded away their first-round pick in 2008 to get him.

"People have said, 'You gave up next year's No. 1,' " said Savage. "That really has no bearing on our thought process. We'd like for Brady to be here because we feel it's important for him to have a chance of getting in here and playing if he's good enough to do that."

Quinn's free fall to No. 22 potentially cost him millions - but Condon will try to cushion the blow. Last year, quarterback Vince Young was picked third overall and received a six-year deal worth $56 million, including $25.9 million guaranteed. The 22nd pick, outside linebacker Manny Lawson, received a 5-year deal worth $13.6 million, including $4.9 million guaranteed.

Quinn's deal will ultimately land somewhere in between. But the big money paid to the Browns' linemen - four $30-million-plus men - will be a factor. You can bet Condon won't want linemen making twice as much as someone who might be the starting quarterback.

Last week, during organized team activities, Quinn said the pressure is on Condon to get him in camp. But he did acknowledge that he's in a three-way battle for the starting job with Charlie Frye and Derek Anderson and that missing time could cost him the job.

Top three talking:

Savage said the Browns have also met with the agents for offensive tackle Joe Thomas and cornerback Eric Wright. All seven rookies have received proposals and the top three have had meetings.

Savage said it's especially important for Thomas to get in on time if he wants to start at left tackle. "Camp is when the linemen get their timing down in pads and there's contact involved."


Extra points:

Running back Jamal Lewis missed practice Tuesday because of an infected tooth, but will be back Thursday. . . . Cornerback Kenny Wright missed Tuesday's practice because of a family issue. . . . Savage said cornerback Gary Baxter is running and making good progress and still has a chance of playing this season. . . . Coach Romeo Crennel said linebacker Leon Williams (ankle) might be available for some limited minicamp duty next week. . . . Tight end Kellen Winslow Jr. (knee) is still on target for training camp.

Winner's conference:

Savage and his brother Joe will host a Winner's Influence Conference on Friday at Baldwin-Wallace College. Also participating will be Indians General Manager Mark Shapiro. Cavs GM Danny Ferry will participate via video conference. For tickets, call 216-812-3400 or log onto winconference.org.

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

mcabot@plaind.com, 216-999-4670

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I am glad the process has started.....this isn't the usual deal on many fronts and is going to take more than a few days to hammer out.

I can't speak for an athletic agent, but my literary agent gets 10% of gross. The publisher pays us both, as per contract... with both of us getting a statement. When I get an advance, the agent get's paid. When I get a royalty check, the agent get's one too. I don't know how it works for a sports agent, but I would assume a similar arrangement....

Personally, unless BQ steps in and tells Condon...enough!

I got a feeling he's going to be in a pretty long hold-out. Sorry Diam but get ready for CF to be our man in 07...just speculation but as long as the kid leaves it in Condon's hands - we got a Hold out...BQ will be Condon's calling card for several years - it means more to him than BQ so until BQ steps in - he ain't signing.

JMHSpeculation

I actually won't mind if BQ holds out.

I prefer him to sit this year anyway.

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Sorry Diam but get ready for CF to be our man in 07

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*LOL* ... do u even read what i post bro?? when have i even once said I WANT HIM TO START THIS YEAR? .... i have said MANY MANY TIMES i will be FINE with whatever his role is this year ... it matters ZERO TO ME weather he starts Day1 ... anytime during the year or SITS THE ENTIRE YEAR ...

Que Serra Serra bro is my feeling on BQ for this year ... the FUTURE is here ... and for me thats ENOUGH FOR NOW ...

no need to apologize to me ... i'll be fine if he sits all year ...

and i have NO CLUE what to think ... i would be SHOCKED if he's signed and in camp on time and i would also be SHOCKED if it is a "long" hold out ...

BQ has some VERY INTELLIGENT people in his "inner circle" and BQ is smart enough to look to them for help ... so when they think he's getting a good deal ... they'll tell him to tell Condon to accept ... and I think the Browns will get EVENTUALLY GET THERE ...

IMO Condon wont get to play hardball as long as he wants .. we'll see ...

and Frye MAY be our starter but no way he or who ever starts will be the "man" ... *LOL* .. if our starting QB's initials aren't BQ who ever starts is no more than KEEPING THE SEAT WARM ... as opposed to being the "man" ..

Quinn's free fall to No. 22 potentially cost him millions - but Condon will try to cushion the blow. Last year, quarterback Vince Young was picked third overall and received a six-year deal worth $56 million, including $25.9 million guaranteed. The 22nd pick, outside linebacker Manny Lawson, received a 5-year deal worth $13.6 million, including $4.9 million guaranteed.


U do the math..
I would gather it will hit somewhere between $17- 20 mill guaranteed..
And probably worth about $ 24- 35 mill overall...
Just playing around with numbers here..

"when have i even once said I WANT HIM TO START THIS YEAR?"

Don't be so defensive...I know you are a big fan of his. And you have gone on record that BQ could possibly be the most ready QB in our stable and win the starting job. Yes I know you would prefer a better QB to be out there this first year of our new Offense and new OL so the kid could be ready in an O with the kinks out of it.

But my reference was more so that he would be out of the competition all together.

Also Missing a decent portion of Training Camp is big time and definately sets back a lot...cause that is the portion of Camp where ALL are learning at some point the teaching is over and they concentrate on RUNNING the offense rather than teaching and he would miss out on that experience.

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell...I shouldn't have referenced you at all but I know you care strongly about the kid. More so than the norm of Fandom.

JMHO

I'm just playing with the numbers ,I combined both then I added 10%(for each year) to my figure ..then divided by two..and almost melted down

I agree .. said it many times myself .. the longer the holdout the further any possibility of BQ starting this year moves out ...

if BQ is there day 1 he has a 50/50 chance to start in my BEST GUESS OPINION ... *LOL* .. cause thats all any of us can do is guess at this point ... we have no clue ..

and i have said he is the BEST PREPARED QB to start coming out of college ... but i have also said that doesnt mean he can or will .. being MORE PREPARED than any college QB is a long ways from being NFL READY ... there two entirely different pieces of criteria ...

his particular situation gives him a shot to start for many reasons other than him being more ready ... the situation for ANY ROOK depends on the following factrors ..

1. QUALITY of the current starters ... we don't have much ... so that give him another leg up ...

2. were installing an ENTIRELY NEW O .. that means the other QB's don't know it any better than he does .. so thats one less area hes behind in ... and with his brain and work ethic .. i bet hes in 2nd place in knowledge of the O behind only Dorsey ...

those are two other big areas for BQ that give him a better chance to start .... but as u said . the LONGER he holds out .. the further out him potentially starting moves out .. no doubt about that ...

Hey, Bud, haven't been on for awhile with everything going on. I just wanted to say how happy we both ended up getting BOTH of the best players in the draft. All that back and forth from everyone for nothing. Obviously, Savage isn't Dopie, but can now be labeled a genius.

BTW, Charlie knows what this draft means, but typical of the guy he is, he is going to continue to work hard to improve, help Brady as much as he can for the betterment of the team, and is going to be a very good backup for us.

Hey Coach, good to see you around!

Good to be here, even if for a bit. Dad's home now and going through PT. So, I am trying to balance taking him, conditioning for the team, camps I'm going to be coaching at, camps for my son, and if I have a little time, running the business. I'll try to drop by more often, though