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...grading a draft now, means very little.
While that is certainly true, mac, so does the impact of losing our FA's. It is all based on potential.
The grade of the 2016 draft will depend largely on the success or failure of QB Cody Kessler.
I do not see Kessler as the "hinge" on which the draft is considered a success or failure. Was he drafted with the expectation of being a starter (perhaps), or a backup with possible upside? I believe (opinion!) this draft must eventually be graded on whether we adequately replaced our lost FA's AND whether we got a few starters while also upgrading other positions...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 05/13/16 10:42 AM.
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Glad to see you back, mac. I was worried about you.
#gmstrong
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...if RG3 returns to 2012 form it allows the Browns to extend him one year out of FA. That's a huge "if". If he studs out this season, I tear up his contract and offer him a 5 yr. $80-100 million. We would have finally found our "guy". Yes, I realize that is a huge "if"... If he does stud out, I have a tough time disagreeing with that. However, it would only one year of production in Cleveland. Hopefully we could be creative in terms of how the contract is structured to offer a few outs. But this is clearly putting the cart before the horse.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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...if RG3 returns to 2012 form it allows the Browns to extend him one year out of FA. That's a huge "if". If he studs out this season, I tear up his contract and offer him a 5 yr. $80-100 million. We would have finally found our "guy". Yes, I realize that is a huge "if"... If he does stud out, I have a tough time disagreeing with that. However, it would only one year of production in Cleveland. Hopefully we could be creative in terms of how the contract is structured to offer a few outs. But this is clearly putting the cart before the horse. He studded out before, for a year. I think I'd not make long decisions on him after just one year. He's under contract for 2 years, nothing wrong with extending it during his second year. I'll bet you anything, that he knew this was a try before you buy, and before you totally commit to him.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Glad to see you back, mac. I was worried about you. 
I just got done watching some of the short videos of the rookies arriving in Cleveland...I'm impressed with the way they handle themselves with a camera staring them in the face.
Also, it appeared that the Browns were going all out to make the rookies and their families feel welcomed. Showing a touch of class and professionalism sets a good tone for the new guys.
...I like what I'm seeing so far.
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The two articles above were written at different times by two different guys, with the draft as a further variable in the second article. 32...as I specifically noted, both guys writing, work (write)for ESPN. ESPN gave the Browns an F+ for free agency..I would imagine the + came from the fact that the Browns signed RG3. The writer of the second story completely ignores what ESPN had already written concerning grading the Browns front office on their performance during free agency. This isn't that hard to understand. Two different writers gave two different grades. ESPN doesn't have a big meeting and tell their writers to get on the same page.
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jc...
Bill Barnwell's report card for the Browns' offseason is overwhelmingly positive
By Chris Pokorny  @DawgsByNature
May 13, 2016, 8:23a
link
Knowing that ESPN's Bill Barnwell (formerly of Football Outsiders and Grantland) is in to analytics, it's no surprise that his report card for the Cleveland Browns' 2016 offseason was very favorable to what the new front office has done. Barnwell provided a nice, well-researched dissection of what every team in the AFC North has done this offseason, and the Browns ended up with the best report card.
Barnwell's AFC North Offseason Grades
Baltimore Ravens received a C+
Cincinnati Bengals received a B
Cleveland Browns received an A-
Pittsburgh Steelers received a B+
According to Barnwell, here is what went right for the Browns this offseason:
Trading down for massive amounts of draft capital - "Per the Chase Stuart draft chart, by even a conservative estimate, the Browns added 32 points of draft capital to their coffers with their trades. To put that in context, the expected return from the No. 1 pick in a typical draft is 34.6 points. Throw in the expected value of the four compensatory picks the Browns will receive after losing free agents, and they're up to 43.9 points of added draft capital this offseason. That's as aggressive of a game plan as any one organization has executed in a single offseason in recent memory."
Signing Robert Griffin III, who Barnwell calls a low-risk, high-upside quarterback as opposed to someone like Ryan Fitzpatrick or Brian Hoyer, who aren't meant for rebuilding teams.
I hear a lot of people say that the Browns accumulating draft picks is a bad move because the franchise has blown so many of them. Barnwell has heard the same thing and agrees with my mentality, saying, "That's reductive and silly -- if the Browns are cursed no matter what, why not try the best possible process?"
As for what the Browns did wrong this offseason, he thinks the club should have re-signed at least some of their younger free agents, particularly S Tashaun Gipson or RT Mitchell Schwartz. The Browns will be trying to replace the free safety and right tackle with a committee of about 3-4 players at each position who will compete the rest of the offseason.
What do you think of Barnwell's assessment, Browns fans?
Last edited by mac; 05/14/16 09:13 AM.
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Welcome home, man. I agree with your post above. Just a sidecar thought, not sure if it is valid.
Do you see the draft evaluation being based at all on how well this coaching staff can compensate for the free agents lost that the new picks and UDFA's replace? None of these guys are ready to be a Mack, for example. I hope we can see us as competing if not competitive. My question is based on my opinion that some of the coaching, especially defensive schemes, handcuffed the team last season. Great players make great coaches. Any thoughts?
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Welcome home, man. I agree with your post above. Just a sidecar thought, not sure if it is valid.
Do you see the draft evaluation being based at all on how well this coaching staff can compensate for the free agents lost that the new picks and UDFA's replace? None of these guys are ready to be a Mack, for example. I hope we can see us as competing if not competitive. My question is based on my opinion that some of the coaching, especially defensive schemes, handcuffed the team last season. Great players make great coaches. Any thoughts?
The ability of this new coaching staff to teach is still an unknown... but, the one thing the new coaching staff has going for it is "experience". Hopefully that experience will translate into better teaching. A football coach is nothing more than "a teacher"...someone who teaches specific areas of the game of football.
Last season, the Browns were a mess, especially on the defensive side. I can't explain the defensive decline, going from a defense that ranked 9th in the NFL in points allowed 21.1 points per game in 2014 to ranking #29 in 2015, giving up 27 points per game...that is why the Browns lost 13 games in 2015...a defensive failure.
...there was a loss of talent as Farmer did a ppjob of re-signing our own free agents...sounds like a re-occurring theme, doesn't it?...something that even our Harvard educated analytics crew hasn't figured out yet, as they proved to be no smarter than Farmer when it comes to resigning our own free agents...then there was the injury bug bit the Browns secondary last season.
Concerning Alex Mack...you are right, none of these guys are ready to fill the center position. Putting a body at center to replace Mack will be easy...but replacing the level of play the Browns have enjoyed at center since the Browns drafted Mack in 2009 is going to be much tougher to replace.
Great players make great coaches??...Jim Brown, Joe Montana, Dion Sanders, Jerry Rice, Dick Butkus, Ray Nitschke... Bart Starr did coach the Packers for 9 seasons with an overall record of 52–76–2.
Not so sure about great players making great coaches...they may be better examples than I found.
I even checked on great coaches to see if they were "great players" in their playing days...Sid Gilman, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick for example...and, for the most part, NO, great coaches were not necessarily great players...interesting. Again, there could be better examples than I found.
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With all due respect...
My interpretation was NOT that the poster was saying a great player would transform into a great coach.
He DID say that having randomly acquired players who eventually were judged to be great would lead to any coach who happened to coach them, being labeled as a great coach.
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Concerning Alex Mack...you are right, none of these guys are ready to fill the center position. Putting a body at center to replace Mack will be easy...but replacing the level of play the Browns have enjoyed at center since the Browns drafted Mack in 2009 is going to be much tougher to replace.
2015 ...3 /13 2014 ...7 /9 2013 ...4 /12 2012 ...5 /11 2011 ...4 /12 2010 ...5 /11 2009 ...5 /11 
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With all due respect...
My interpretation was NOT that the poster was saying a great player would transform into a great coach.
He DID say that having randomly acquired players who eventually were judged to be great would lead to any coach who happened to coach them, being labeled as a great coach.
Bard ask me a series of questions that I replied to, including the one about Great players make great coaches. Any thoughts?
Feel free to join the discussion...
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Concerning Alex Mack...you are right, none of these guys are ready to fill the center position. Putting a body at center to replace Mack will be easy...but replacing the level of play the Browns have enjoyed at center since the Browns drafted Mack in 2009 is going to be much tougher to replace.
2015 ...3 /13 2014 ...7 /9 2013 ...4 /12 2012 ...5 /11 2011 ...4 /12 2010 ...5 /11 2009 ...5 /11
How many players make up the offensive line?
How many players make up the offensive, defensive and special teams units?
How many players are responsible for a team's season record?
After you answer these questions and you still have a question about what I posted, ask away.
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With all due respect...
My interpretation was NOT that the poster was saying a great player would transform into a great coach.
He DID say that having randomly acquired players who eventually were judged to be great would lead to any coach who happened to coach them, being labeled as a great coach.
Bard ask me a series of questions that I replied to, including the one about Great players make great coaches. Any thoughts?
Feel free to join the discussion... Apparently I was mistaken. Won't be the last time. Thought I was only adding clarity about what I read...apologies.
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Bard ask me a series of questions that I replied to, including the one about Great players make great coaches. Any thoughts? I believe he did. Though the wording was a bit choppy, I think you misunderstood the point. Try reading it, "great players make coaches great." I also don't think Bard was inferring that great players also make great coaches.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Mac: What do your questions have to do with Vambo's post?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Bard ask me a series of questions that I replied to, including the one about Great players make great coaches. Any thoughts? I believe he did. Though the wording was a bit choppy, I think you misunderstood the point. Try reading it, "great players make coaches great." I also don't think Bard was inferring that great players also make great coaches. Yea, I believe bard was more or less saying that great coaches know how to "coach 'em up"
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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If we had drafted Andrew Luck, Pat Shurmur may still be here, and be considered an "offensive genius"
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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If we had drafted Andrew Luck, Pat Shurmur may still be here, and be considered an "offensive genius" Too bad we didn't have a chance to even think about drafting him...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Not the point..
But I figured I should of added "if we had the chance" because I knew someone was going to come along and say just that..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I did not consider that take on the quote, Mac, though it is interesting. When I heard it, it was like GD's interpretation, that the rep of great coaches is realized based on outstanding players. Lombardi, Brown, and others have their legacy from standouts. So I am hoping that we find some players to stud out. "Just" coaching as it improves players is a necessary, but one-way, street. Right now, I am hoping the coaches can make the most of this new group, give them some edge and compensate for their youth with their own experience and success. It is the wild card kind of X-factor IMO for where we are moving.
I also concede that this is not a pure FO discussion. But I think whatever we manage to do will be FO concerning our future. Thanks for a few ideas to think about.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Dawg Pound Report Some good stuff in here, well worth watching. I really found it interesting the one guy everyone was on board with was Ogbah.
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I'm pretty sure it was DeValve, the TE, they said the FO, coaches, etc, were all on the same page about.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Sorry u are correct. I was just watching a video on Ogbah and had him on the brain pan. For Seth to be the guy everyone wanted really said a lot about how much they valued this kid. Anyway, I do believe we could carry 4 TE's and 5 receivers in this scheme.
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It is a pretty good video. And in your defense, the Browns Report just got done talking about, and showing clips, of Ogbah before switching to the DeValve comment.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Mac: What do your questions have to do with Vambo's post? It looks like Vambo is suggesting that since we have had bad records over the last several years, it was no big deal to lose Mack. Or, to extrapolate, anybody who's been on the roster during that time. Mac is pointing out that Mack was not part of the problem. While as a team we have not been good, Mack is one of the best in the league at his position. No one can argue that we need to get better. Replacing Mack with a lesser talent is the opposite of us getting better. Vambo's argument has been brought up by a few this offseason. Since Joe Thomas has been here during these last, awful, years, should we kick him to the curb?
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Mac: What do your questions have to do with Vambo's post? It looks like Vambo is suggesting that since we have had bad records over the last several years, it was no big deal to lose Mack. Or, to extrapolate, anybody who's been on the roster during that time. Mac is pointing out that Mack was not part of the problem. While as a team we have not been good, Mack is one of the best in the league at his position. No one can argue that we need to get better. Replacing Mack with a lesser talent is the opposite of us getting better. Vambo's argument has been brought up by a few this offseason. Since Joe Thomas has been here during these last, awful, years, should we kick him to the curb? cant believe someone had to explain that......
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Since Joe Thomas has been here during these last, awful, years, should we kick him to the curb?
He did not opt out of his contract and seek employment else where as Mack did. Keeping a good player that does not want to be here is not good for the team since they are rebuilding get a young player who they can groom to their offense and save a few million.
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Since Joe Thomas has been here during these last, awful, years, should we kick him to the curb?
He did not opt out of his contract and seek employment else where as Mack did. Keeping a good player that does not want to be here is not good for the team since they are rebuilding get a young player who they can groom to their offense and save a few million. Agree with that. We do need to change the culture however, so that these guys want to stay here and not to opt out...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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cant believe someone had to explain that...... The conversation was about Mack at OC. Mac's questions were about the Oline as a whole. Can't believe you couldn't put that together...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Since Joe Thomas has been here during these last, awful, years, should we kick him to the curb?
He did not opt out of his contract and seek employment else where as Mack did. Keeping a good player that does not want to be here is not good for the team since they are rebuilding get a young player who they can groom to their offense and save a few million. some wanted to stay and get paid....... they have a limited time to make money in the nfl. nothing wrong with paying talent... esp homegrown talent.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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some wanted to stay and get paid....... They would get paid wherever they went. Or are you implying that they may not be good enough to catch on with another team?...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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some wanted to stay and get paid....... They would get paid wherever they went. Or are you implying that they may not be good enough to catch on with another team?... no. i am saying that other teams were not as cheap as the browns. some teams dont throw a sissy fit and pull offers like we did.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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no. i am saying that other teams were not as cheap as the browns. some teams dont throw a sissy fit and pull offers like we did.
Please link to to where someone threw a "SISSY FIT" please.
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some wanted to stay and get paid.......
No wonder you are confused you keep bringing up SOME when it is just Mack we are talking about. Mac opted out and went to play for another team did not want to play for the Browns.
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no. i am saying that other teams were not as cheap as the browns. some teams dont throw a sissy fit and pull offers like we did.
Please link to to where someone threw a "SISSY FIT" please. no.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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some wanted to stay and get paid.......
No wonder you are confused you keep bringing up SOME when it is just Mack we are talking about. Mac opted out and went to play for another team did not want to play for the Browns. mack opted out to get more guarantee money...
Last edited by pblack18707; 05/16/16 03:13 PM.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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some wanted to stay and get paid....... They would get paid wherever they went. Or are you implying that they may not be good enough to catch on with another team?... no. i am saying that other teams were not as cheap as the browns. some teams dont throw a sissy fit and pull offers like we did. The only offer that was "pulled", at least that I'm aware of, was to Schwartz. If my understanding is correct, his offer was not pulled, rather it had a time limit on it and that limit ran out. Put the blame on his agent, not on the FO...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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