DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Discussion on Hue's offense w/Griffin

From what I have seen from Hue and Saunders over the years is that both love the vertical post and drag routes behind them with TE's and RBs. Lots of run after catch opportunity . Always looking to create the doughnut defense with nothing in the middle lol.

I really think Duke Johnson is gonna be a star in this system. I believe he will get 70% of the reps. Think Marshall Faulk role in St. Louis.

I can really see the hamster spinning the wheel in Hue and Saunders brains as they look at developing this roster. Hue also likes creating mismatches especially with his TE' s and big fast receivers. I honestly believe as we settle on a roster it is gonna be about what dynamic can this player give us and its why we let hartline go. He just wasnt gonna make a lot of explosive plays for us.

I also feel, that it is gonna make for tremendous debate as to which QB we role with come opening day. RG3 youth and athleticism vs McCown who will just be asked to get the ball into playmakers hands and let them make that dynamic play.

I dont want to get into positive outlook vs negativity but I see a plan for how we drafted and I can envision what Hue and Saunders want out of these guys. I believe at the end of the day we are gonna carry 3 or 4 TE's 6 WR's and 3 RB's with more stashed on the PS. If you want to make the cut you gotta have big play potential.

We will run the ball a lot but we will also supplement a lot of reverses and end around along with WR screens to inflate those run numbers. I am just very intrigued by the coaches/players combination that we have.

Stray, stray...The 'What to expect....' article has some good gifs that I think would be good fodder for discussion. But alas I don't know how to post the gifs to make the video work. In retrospect I should have used that article as the launching point for this thread

Re:Cody
If Kessler was the QB I think the scheme would be tweaked away from the vertical passing and read-option elements and focus more on the more traditional "west coast offense" quick rhythm drop back passing.

Ed, I, for one, enjoy reading your posts. Do what you do. Thanks.

^^Gratsi

2015 Week 1
1st Play: 12 Personnel

Power I

Shift to

Empty Spread

Right click the gif and click "open link in new tab". That will take you to a giphy page. Right click it again and click "open image in new tab" . copy the link address there.

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2016/01/what-to-expect-from-hue-jacksons-new-offense/

Staples of Hue's run game: Power

I-Form/Double TE + FB


Pulling:

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets...6064.1459097786
Figured I ought to include some of the OC's old run game concepts:

[img]http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets...6064.1459097786[/img]

[img]http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets...6064.1459097786[/img]

So can we expect a FB who blocks this year?

Our running back coach spoke pretty high about Malcom Johnson in his recent presser.

Profootball Focus:

Bengals-

Giovani Bernard
rank 24
overall 76.7
run 79.0
receive 67.4
pass pro 37.2


Jeremy Hill
rank 45
overall 67.9
run 69.4
receive 56.5
pass pro 74.4

Browns-

Duke Johnson
rank 23
overall 77.2
run 74.7
receive 88.8
pass pro 36.1

Isaiah Crowell
rank 31
overall 74.2
run 71.9
receive 74.5
pass pro 61.4

---------------------------------------
Raw Stats:

Bengals-
Jeremy Hill 223 794 3.6
Giovani Bernard 154 730 4.7


Browns-
Isaiah Crowell 185 706 3.8
Duke Johnson Jr. 104 379 3.6

I think they are underestimating Crow's pass blocking.

I was wondering the same thing...who on this roster is gonna fill the role of FB? Because Hue seems to use a 'traditional' FB more then most current offenses.

Maybe its a shared role with a few players...maybe even use DeValve there if he's tough enough.

I think they will attempt to mold Terrell Watson into a fullback.

Did you forget we have Malcom Johnson? The running back coach said good things on Johnson when asked about the fullback position.

Several areas of the run game have been covered thus far from personnel, scheme/concepts, production, stats, hue's influence as HC.

One factor that was only addressed briefly that I think can have a huge impact on the run game is Griffin's impact on the backside contain either through zone-read or bootleg plays.




http://nflbreakdowns.com/beginner-series-zone-read/

Long story short, as in the picture above, the read-option w/ a QB that is a run threat can be used to neutralize 1 defender. In this case the concept they are using 'options' one of KC's best defenders (Houston). In the first GIF #54 is forced to account for Cam instead of the runner.

Read-option/zone-read can completely beat a defender or cause a defender to hesitate and that's all it takes for the defense to gain an advantage.

And if the backside defenders forget their assignment or crashing/cheating hard in order to make plays against frontside runs then the bootleg bites them:

Bootleg:


In addition to the effect the zone-read run threat creates; Griffin's own running yardage boost the overall run game production and offensive time of possession.

I have no idea if they will employ more zone-read or rollout/bootleg. If I'm designing the offense for the Browns I implement much more rollout/bootleg. It exposes the QB to much less risk of injury. Louis' experience to run the jet-sweep can also be used to create more space and time on bootlegs. JMHO

(Side note: none of Griffin's injury were from read-option)

I'm all for rollouts/bootlegs and I also agree that there is less injury risk on those plays as compared to read-option.

But, for me the idea of limiting read-option use because of injury risk seems doesn't match. While I agree there is injury risk w zone-read don't think there risk is high enough to preclude its use. Read-option greatly benefits the entire team. The run game benefits, the passing game benefits because of explosive play-action passing, the defense benefits if the offense is productive and sustain drive (time of possession).

QB is an inherently risky position when it comes to injury. There hasn't been a study or hard numbers one way or the other...but many coaches talk about greater risk comes from unseen rather then anticipated hits.
And in the read-option the QB knows when/where the hits are coming from much more so then in the pocket. The QB just needs to know when/how to get down and avoid those unnecessary hits.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/55774...-than-tom-cable



During that same time period the run game jumped from:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/year/2010

2009-21st w/410att 1701yds 4.1ypc 7tda 106.3ypg

to:

2010-2nd w/504att 2494yds 4.9ypc 19tda 155.9ypg

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If anyone is still out there, I finally have prediction based question....Last year it was 22nd in rush yards and ranked 19th by Football outsiders.

Where do you think the run game will finish this year?

You give a well reasoned argument for having read-option elements in the scheme Hue is installing. Still, intuitively the nature of the contact a QB takes within say, 3 yards of the line of scrimmage seems potentially more punishing than getting tackled in space. Its not an overly important point to me. Hopefully with a variety of ways to get the ball to playmakers it won't have to be a very large part of the offense.

eotab, guard dawg and anyone else out there....

Where do you guys think the run game will finish this year?

I'd venture to guess it ends up around 20th overall ... we'll run it more with a little more success

It's tough to say. I think Erving will be the key. If he can get things together, we can be solid. If not, it could be a long year. Penetration up the middle kills offenses.

It could take some time for the chemistry to get where it needs to be on the new look O-Line. We'll see how it goes.

First year in Jackson's offense and knowing his history with run production I will say as high as 16th.

To me the two keys will be efficiency in the pass game to get defenses into a 7 man box and the execution of our OL more so than the backs themselves. If those two elements are favorable then I think our backs run well.

I think we will be top 10 in running the ball but it will be a bit of false advertisement as we will get a lot of yards on those wide receiver screens, end arounds and QB runs with RG3. These receivers we drafted know how to get upfield.

After looking at all the situation, personnel, scheme and coaching philosophy I'm confident in the run game.

Without a doubt there are areas in the run game that are question marks that need to be addressed.

But all things considered, I would project ~10th ranked rushing offense.

keep into account the top running teams generally are teams who have the lead late in games

Most WR screens are still forward passes, so those yards don't count towards the run game.
----------------------------------------------------------

I'm curious about your comment about WR rushing yards (reverses, lining up in the backfield) and QB rushing yards?

Why do you consider them false advertisement in the run game?

For me having players that pose running threats from those concepts (WR/QB) all contribute to making the base running back runs more effective. Not only do they provide yards which boosts the rushing total but more importantly they force the defense to account for more possible run threats. They have to alert for WR reverse or alert for QB keep etc...

Do you think the receiver screens and end arounds can help create room between the tackles for the backs to work? Maybe Hue will take advantage of some misdirection off of those plays.

Its to supplement the run game but in a traditional sense it isnt the run game one thinks about. I can see Hue's wheels turning with Pryor, Ricardo and Coleman.

Hue and Al are all about creating the doughtnut. Stretch them deep, draw them in and u got that big hole in the middle for easy yards. Ability to attack from varying formations TE's and RBs wide and Wide receivers int he backfield will happen.

But as far as being able to line up and drive people off the line, I have my doubts that we will be able to do that. I love Bailey and Bitonio's ability to open wholes but the rest of the team, i have doubts about.

yep

Yes I do. The philsoophy is stretch them wide, stretch them deep and draw them in. When they talk about making defenses defend every blade of grass they arent joking. Once the back gets past that first wave, there is tremendous opportunity for the huge run. I just lack the confidence in the OL right now even though I am a huge fan of Hal Hunter. I dont know if he will be able to get these guys to buy into his deliver the pain style of brutality.

Have you seen Drango and/or Coleman?

If we're going to run , we needed changes up front. We haven't been able to forever. It's why I'm not unhappy at all with Mack and Schwartz being gone.

I can't speak to what people think about. However; WR and QBs are always counted in team rushing totals. Being that those yards are calculated into rushing stats I am still wondering why you called those rushing yards false advertisements? *shrugs*

Moreover, the yards from WR/QB runs actually help the base run game have success because the defense is forced to account for them. If they assign backside contain to play the bootleg/reverse/zone-read QB keep that 1-2 defenders that can't chase down the line and make plays or prevent cutback lanes.

I'm not sure what this means....but lets use Football Outsiders as opposed to 'rush yards' then because FBO gives a more qualitative look at the rushing game. Which would "normalize" those WR/QB runs that you mention. So instead of 10th...where would you put them?

Where do you think the rushing game will rank based on FBO metrics? http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff

FBO ranked 19th last year.

I think that Coach Jackson has already addressed the subject in a presser. Watson is a RB.

imo Johnson is not a FB, but rather a HB who was asked to play FB last season.

It's just a personnal observation, but I never saw a FB miss (wiff on) more blocks than Johnson did last season.

If he doesn't figure it out, then that could open the door for udfa Skov.

of course, this is all guess work. All depends on the line and how it comes together. We know that Thomas, Bitonio and Greco can carry their load just fine. We don't know who the Center and RT are going to be. We suspect, but we don't know.

So with that in mind, anywhere from 22nd to 25th. Again, best guess... nothing more

I believe the team will improve running the football. I base that only on the fact that Hue Jackson and his coaching staff have shown to be better than the previous coaching staff. If all things are near equal talent-wise, the team will improve.

I wouldn't doubt this a bit, especially if our defense is weak and easily scored on. I recall a season where opponents basically used our offense against us to keep the clock burning.... we racked up all kinds of run yardage and had a really well ranked run offense. Of course, it was all bunk because we didn't score much and our defense was terrible.