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Oh man this day is turning into a doozy on here...I think we should get out of NATO its outdated...and honestly it feels like WE are NATO.
But I enjoy reading your reasons Pit.
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Oh wow. Mic drop...
Awesome post. Thank you. It needed to be said.
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Anyone watching CBS morning news and seeing the stories from the people shot who survived?? Man pretty chilling. Not to Monday quarterback but man how come no one fought back especially when he was reloading?? Fear? shock? IDK just dont understand how so many had the flight instinct but not fight for your life instinct.
Like I said not trying to judge just wondering why so many people outnumbered him and they didnt fight for their lives is all. Training. How many times have you heard the term, 'shelter in place'? People have been trained in this country to sit and wait for the police to show up. It's the same reason that 3 out of 4 planes crashed with everyone in their seats instead of trying to do something about the terrorists. As I remember the stats, in an emergency situation, 10% will do the wrong thing, 10% will do the right thing, and the remaining 80% will wait for instructions. Personally, I would hope I did something more than hide if I'm ever confronted with a shooter in my place of work or out in public. I do know that I have done the right thing when presented with emergency situations before, so I'd like to think I continue to do the right thing. I do know I'd rather die fighting back than cowering. I was just talking about this earlier tonight. I never saw what the exact comments he made were, but I briefly saw Heraldo was catching flak for saying the patrons should have fought back. People are clearly wired differently. In a crisis some people will know exactly what to do. As a first responder when it doesn't occur to me that "doing nothing" is an option. It's why what they say is true about first responders: they are running in when everyone else is running away. I don't think this makes me any braver than anyone else, it's just the way I happen to be my world view I guess. It's also training like Erik touches on. Over 7 years in law enforcement, I've been through hundreds of emergency situations and I am able to handle them much differently than when I was a rookie. But most of those folks in the club haven't been trained. They didn't have the repeated experiences where they recognize gun fire, or had enough to not get caught up in the panic. I have no doubt in my mind that there were some who attempted to mount a resistance. But clearly it was more than they were able to handle. I don't think this makes those who didn't act cowards. I just think they were a product of their training. Not military, police, first responder, or even work place violence video training. I think it's a result of the training we get as a society. -We are constantly told to understand and try to rationalize with the bully, instead of fighting back. -the internet and social media in particular has led people to become disconnected from reality. It's why a few years ago several people filmed a guy throwing his wife over a bridge instead of attempting to stop him. It's why many people in the club hunkered down and turned to texting, tweeting, etc as the killer was walking around. Before a person was thought to behave in one of two ways when confronted with danger: flight or fight. I think now we can say it's fight or flight or disconnect. Like I said, I don't think any of this makes those who didn't fight back cowards. When the s**t hits the fan, we fall back on what we know. They just knew something different is all. -----------------------------------------------------
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Yeah I'm thinking just the sheer shock of it..and I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I do think to an extent a generation has been taught to be passive n no tolerance policies have harbored a ton of non-resistance tactics to our youth.
It still fascinates me. They sure fought back on the hijacked planes though but it couldve been they had time to prepare an attack instead of some nut shooting people in mass.
Yep not blaming...people deal with things much differently.
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I was just talking about this earlier tonight. I never saw what the exact comments he made were, but I briefly saw Heraldo was catching flak for saying the patrons should have fought back.
People are clearly wired differently. In a crisis some people will know exactly what to do. As a first responder when it doesn't occur to me that "doing nothing" is an option. It's why what they say is true about first responders: they are running in when everyone else is running away. I don't think this makes me any braver than anyone else, it's just the way I happen to be my world view I guess.
It's also training like Erik touches on. Over 7 years in law enforcement, I've been through hundreds of emergency situations and I am able to handle them much differently than when I was a rookie.
But most of those folks in the club haven't been trained. They didn't have the repeated experiences where they recognize gun fire, or had enough to not get caught up in the panic. I have no doubt in my mind that there were some who attempted to mount a resistance. But clearly it was more than they were able to handle. I don't think this makes those who didn't act cowards. I just think they were a product of their training. Not military, police, first responder, or even work place violence video training. I think it's a result of the training we get as a society.
-We are constantly told to understand and try to rationalize with the bully, instead of fighting back.
-the internet and social media in particular has led people to become disconnected from reality. It's why a few years ago several people filmed a guy throwing his wife over a bridge instead of attempting to stop him. It's why many people in the club hunkered down and turned to texting, tweeting, etc as the killer was walking around. Before a person was thought to behave in one of two ways when confronted with danger: flight or fight. I think now we can say it's fight or flight or disconnect.
Like I said, I don't think any of this makes those who didn't fight back cowards. When the s**t hits the fan, we fall back on what we know. They just knew something different is all.
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As I said before, the current training for kids from elementary school is 'shelter in place', or as I see it, be a sheep. Sheep get slaughtered. Add to that the gun free zones, and you give a terrorist/lunatic/zealot a shooting gallery rich with targets. I've heard the arguments for and against guns in these situations, and I am sure of one thing. If you are in that situation, a gun will give you a chance. If you charge the shooter, you will give others a chance. If you sit and wait to be shot, you will have a chance, but not a good one. I still think if more people carried a gun, and if they are responsible enough to identify their target, these shootings would have less deaths, and they wouldn't be the easy soft targets that they are now. Our government has already proven they will do the wrong thing when given the opportunity to govern. If you don't believe this, just look at the IRS targeting that has happened during this administration. Our government will try to prevent anyone from getting a gun if they are given the secret list, just like they've put people on the no fly list without cause. We will all become 'guilty until proven innocent' once that have that power.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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Because giving all the drunk people at a night club guns for the rare chance of a terrorist attack is a smart idea.
I wonder how many murders would mount up that surpasses the death count of this terrorist act. Because a bunch of drunk people and guns is such a great thing to combine, right?
Some of you guys who act intelligent and enlightened aren't very street smart.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Tin foil hat time Erik...I also think they have made it way to easy to catch people for a felony...weather for the failed war on drugs..whatever...but I think its intent was to lesson the ability of someone able to purchase firearms in a defacto kind of way to ban ownership.
I dont think its the only reason and there are other facets to people being over charged but this has crossed my mind more then once.
Ok Tin foil hat off now.
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Because giving all the drunk people at a night club guns for the rare chance of a terrorist attack is a smart idea.
I wonder how many murders would mount up that surpasses the death count of this terrorist act. Because a bunch of drunk people and guns is such a great thing to combine, right?
Some of you guys who act intelligent and enlightened aren't very street smart. Yeah I wonder about this also...I usually carry concealed and thats what it means concealed...in case of an event like this but I dont drink much anymore and dont do well with drunks so my exposure to this is very limited. One other thing Ive been doing for a while is where I cant take a firearm because youre checked...I use a cain to walk most of the time now and I have one with a about 2ft sword. Ive probably been lucky no one has caught me and seem to be illegal in some states I visit...guess I might make the felon list before I depart this planet.
Last edited by FBHO71; 06/16/16 09:10 AM.
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Shing14...I know my history. Thank you. But, I did like your post.
The point I was making was people have also died under the name of Christianity just as they have Islam. To point fingers at one religion without acknowledging the horrible actions of another is unjust. Throughout history both religion and greed have often been at the root of mankind's worst and lowest moments.
It's also a dangerous and slippery slope to paint a religion of 1.6 billion people with one generalized, sweeping paintbrush. Yet, Mr. Trump is trying to do just that by evoking fear into the public.
"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". Powerful words spoken at a time when the world had clawed its way out of the Great War, in the grips of a depression and Germany was again beginning to reel an ugly head.
I wish Trump could be as statesmanly and strong as FDR. Instead he panders to fear, soundbytes and bullish behavior, which is not helpful and only making our country even more divided than it already is. I actually fear our nation turning on itself and destroying the American philosophy that we were founded on, more than I fear a relatively small group (in comparison to the 1.6 billion followers of the faith) of radical jihadists. If this internal, divisive war within our own nation happens then the terrorists have won.
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Dude this country is divided and it doesnt have jack to do with what Trump is saying. Generalizing all muslims..bologna he is asking to stop bringing them from known terrorist harboring countries and have them better vetted before bringing them here. Sounds like your post is a big generalization. I fear a relatively small group (in comparison to the 1.6 billion followers of the faith) of radical jihadists. Have you done the numbers?? relatively small?? good God lets say 1% are extremists and that number is way to low...how many of that number should we let in because we dont want to be racist to all of the poor muslims?? I give you a bowl of skittles with 100 and tell you hey 1% has poison and will kill you..how many you going to eat? I need to just go enjoy my day and take in a productive day. Have a great day everyone...
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Because giving all the drunk people at a night club guns for the rare chance of a terrorist attack is a smart idea.
I wonder how many murders would mount up that surpasses the death count of this terrorist act. Because a bunch of drunk people and guns is such a great thing to combine, right?
Some of you guys who act intelligent and enlightened aren't very street smart. And some of you can't read worth a damn. Did you miss where I said, 'responsible'? I would expect a responisible gun owner/carrier to not get snockered in a bar then pull his gun. You apparently think all gun carriers want to get hammered then pull their guns. I don't think any of the security guards in this club were carrying either, so just more targets. I'm just curious, swish, do you go through life believing everyone other than you is an incompetent fool? It's good to know that you're the only one in the world smart enough to make our decisions for us.
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Not enough security and poor security plan.
GM strong...
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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You honestly think adding the word "responsible" matters?
Everybody is a law abiding citizen, until they aren't. That lady who got shot by her 4 year old kid? She thought she was responsible as well.
And that's the thing. Most guns owners think they're responsible, correct?
What just using your own logic, that word doesn't actually mean anything. Everybody thinks their responsible, right up until a situation happens. Then only after its too late, do you see who isn't responsible.
So let me get this straight: me making you think about your beliefs is somehow me saying that I think you're in incompetent fool?
Quit being sensitive. Or never mind, you just want me to be PC now. Lol.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Tin foil hat time Erik...I also think they have made it way to easy to catch people for a felony...weather for the failed war on drugs..whatever...but I think its intent was to lesson the ability of someone able to purchase firearms in a defacto kind of way to ban ownership.
I dont think its the only reason and there are other facets to people being over charged but this has crossed my mind more then once.
Ok Tin foil hat off now. You mean to say that our legislators have been passing laws to make it look like they're doing their jobs? That's their number one solution for everything, 'let's pass a new law, even though we have plenty of laws on the same subject'. It's exactly like what I've seen saying about the 'training' of our kids now receive. The natural human response is fight or flight. The government trains us to hide and wait. Our government has gone from championing individual responsibility to 'you poor incompetent thing, let us take care of you and rule over you' in just a short couple hundred years.
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So let me get this straight: me making you think about your beliefs is somehow me saying that I think you're in incompetent fool?
Quit being sensitive. Or never mind, you just want me to be PC now. Lol. No, you going on a tangent about 'give all the drunks a gun' is what makes me think you believe everyone is incompetent. And no, I'm not asking you to be PC at all. You just keep assuming, and being former military, you should know that is the mother of all fubars.
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First off, me being former military, I've only applied that experience to the middl east talk.
This discussion has evolved into just gun talk. Being being former military means what?
Absolutely nothing. Dynamics bro, try to understand that.
I'm saying that a bunch of drunks and guns isn't a good idea. That's all I was saying. The stuff that will happen completely negates the idea of protection because of an extremely rare chance of a terrorist act
Alcohol already makes a bunch of people drunken violent idiots. Yet you think somehow adding guns to the mix is gonna make it more safe?
Come on bro.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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First off, me being former military, I've only applied that experience to the middl east talk.
This discussion has evolved into just gun talk. Being being former military means what?
Absolutely nothing. Dynamics bro, try to understand that.
I'm saying that a bunch of drunks and guns isn't a good idea. That's all I was saying. The stuff that will happen completely negates the idea of protection because of an extremely rare chance of a terrorist act
Alcohol already makes a bunch of people drunken violent idiots. Yet you think somehow adding guns to the mix is gonna make it more safe?
Come on bro. No, being in the military should have exposed you to the saying on making assumptions. That was all I said. Also, I specifically used the word 'responsible' as a responsible gun owner should not carry his gun if he's going out to get hammered. Yes, I know not every gun owner is going to be responsible, and I also know there's no way to figure out who is who. But as I see things, we either have our rights and teach personal responsibility, or we continue down the path we are on now until the government tells us when to breath, wipe our butts, what to eat, when to sleep, etc. Personally, I don't like to be micromanaged by anyone. Also, I never said anything about adding guns to a bunch of soused up idiots. You did. You read things into what I wrote. My point is still that gun free zones, and taking away our right to protect ourselves, only leaves targets for those that don't respect us, and want to do murder.
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Nobody likes being micromanaged, but when you have idiots being idiots, it leaves us with no choice.
There's hundreds of stupid laws in this country by state. By why are there laws on it? Because some dumbass did it, and ruined it for everybody.
So while you're busy crying about the government, remembered who put them in that position in the first place.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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jc...
The security provided by this night club was insufficient, allowing a gunman to just walk in and start shooting. I believe I read that there was one individual working security when the shooting began.
I would estimate that 99.9% of all establishments lack the security necessary to control the threat level their establishment faces every day.
One common denominator among most of the attacks is the shooter attacked a location where there were a number of individuals at the location they targeted.
Another common denominator..they chose locations that had little or no security.
IMO, security at the entrance of each potential target needs to be improved with a scanner to check for weapons at each entrance. It's ironic, stores will scan to see if someone might be "shoplifting" but there is nothing to check to see if some nut is walking into a store with and assault rifle.
I'm not going to claim that more security at the entrance is the only solution that should be considered...but it seems that most have overlooked the idea of confronting the bad guys at the entrance, before they start shooting.
jmho, mac
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I think we need to be real careful not to place blame on the club.
I dunno how recent it's been since the last time you guys been out turning up, but clubs typically don't have enough security for the number of people inside.
This is normal, especially since most clubs don't plan for...I dunno... A self hating terrorist running through their club.
It's just something most people don't have to worry about. Also, the security typically don't carry, as there's plenty of law enforcement in the area(TYPICALLY, before somebody jumps on word play) that if something major happens they can respond quickly.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I dunno how recent it's been since the last time you guys been out turning up, but clubs typically don't have enough security for the number of people inside. Yep...and they run on such a tight profit margin that they probably couldnt afford the security..well what people think would be appropriate anyway. Its one thing that gets under my skin...we are so reactive in this country...preventive naw...we will just way overreact to things that happen and then the result is more freedom taken away in the name of safety.
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Alcohol already makes a bunch of people drunken violent idiots. Yet you think somehow adding guns to the mix is gonna make it more safe?
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Thanks Tulsa..I'll watch it...but have read quite a bit about this. My comment was more directed to Swish that I agree a lot of clubs arent secure and hell the owners couldnt afford it anyway.
I read what he did to the guard at the door..It was more about other places with lax security is all.
I personally do not see how this could have been prevented.
If I misread the intent of your post...disregard my post.
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I just clicked on you, this was more in response to Mac. The guy came in a side door and since he frequented the place he'd know about them and possibly unlocked them and went out to get his weapons and returned coming in behind the guard.
#GMSTRONG
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From Tulsa's link: http://www.12news.com/news/animation-shows-how-orlando-shooting-unfolded/2440591872:02 A.M. Mateen entered the crowded club through a side door with an AR-15-style assault rifle and a handgun. Mateen killed a bouncer and dozens of patrons.
2:03 A.M.An off-duty Orlando police officer, working security for the club, responded to the shots. He and Mateen exchanged gun fire outside of the club, near an entrance.
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Because giving all the drunk people at a night club guns for the rare chance of a terrorist attack is a smart idea.
I wonder how many murders would mount up that surpasses the death count of this terrorist act. Because a bunch of drunk people and guns is such a great thing to combine, right?
Some of you guys who act intelligent and enlightened aren't very street smart. I don't know how it works in other states, but in Ohio, you can carry in a restaurant/club - a place that sells alcohol for on premise consumption. AS LONG AS you are not consuming. So, you wouldn't have to worry about some drunk shooting people. Edited to add this: As I thought about my reply, I realized I was coming from/looking at it from a common sense, law abiding stance. If some one is dead set on killing people, they obviously will break the law. Multiple laws. (and a law against carrying if you're drinking alcohol....well, if you're prepared to murder, you don't care about that law.) My bad.
Last edited by archbolddawg; 06/16/16 02:56 PM.
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Because giving all the drunk people at a night club guns for the rare chance of a terrorist attack is a smart idea.
I wonder how many murders would mount up that surpasses the death count of this terrorist act. Because a bunch of drunk people and guns is such a great thing to combine, right?
Some of you guys who act intelligent and enlightened aren't very street smart. I don't know how it works in other states, but in Ohio, you can carry in a restaurant/club - a place that sells alcohol for on premise consumption. AS LONG AS you are not consuming. So, you wouldn't have to worry about some drunk shooting people. Thanks Arch I wanted to post this but frankly I burned out on the gun talk. Though to be honest I understand why people would have a problem with it...hell I kind of do and I dont know you'd find a more pro-gun person then me.
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I like the edit Sir...just make murder illegal...or better yet gun free zones everywhere..that'll work.
Hey Swish before I see your response to Arch I would like to say your post with something to the effect of everyone is responsible or lawful till their not...put criminal in place of lawful or responsible and man Ive been saying that for years just not for the case of gun control.
Just thought it was funny to read something Ive said for years.
Last edited by FBHO71; 06/16/16 03:13 PM.
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I don't mean to be confrontational here, but the idea of gun free zones brings up a problem.
Do second amendment rights override the rights of property owners? I'm saying that if a business owner decides he doesn't want guns on his property, do gun owners have the right to ignore the demands of the property owners?
That's something that I have been puzzled about. I'm certainly a second amendment proponent, yet if I were a person or business owner who didn't want firearms on my property, I feel my ownership rights of my property would permit me to stop anyone from carrying a gun on that property.
It seems if people wish to stop gun free zones they would have to take on the wishes of property owners more so than government.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Hey Pit good point and have always felt if the property owner does NOT want it then so be it.
I havent been caught yet carrying concealed where its not wanted but my son did..they asked him to put it in the car and he could come back in. He was printing through his shirt and they asked..the manager that is.
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Again, I'll only say: In Ohio, if a business says "no guns allowed", a lawful concealed carry permit means nothing. If you enter the business with a weapon, you are breaking the law.
What/how other states deal with it, I don't know.
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I agree. Just like you cant have a protest on someones private property.
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Arch you sure about illegal?? like you get arrested illegal?
Because I was in a umm..crap..lowes in Beavercreek OH and a woman got caught and it was the same thing my son went through...asked to take it to their vehicle and was good to continue shopping..I specifically remembering her saying she had her ccw.
She went out and I saw her shopping like 10 min later.
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Now federal buildings police stations court well...now you will be cuffed.
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,378
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,378 |
Also Arch..Ive witnessed open carry do the same thing and didnt get arrested or ticketed and that was dealing with the police at the same place I believe.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,956
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,956 |
Illegal, as in, you CAN be arrested. What the business/property owner decides to do is up to them. They can be nice and say "hey, can't have that here", or, they can call the cops.
No different than if you have a no trespassing sign on your property. I trespass. You can come out and ask me to leave, or you can call the cops and have them come out and ask me to leave/possibly arrest me.
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,378
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,378 |
Thanks for clarifying..Ive been in this game for a long time and have never heard of someone being arrested for carrying in a place that has the no gun signs...and didnt turn into a knob with the people asking them to leave.
The ones I did see catch flak and not even arrested was when they was arguing constitution nutty stuff and didnt want to leave..police come they said their spiel and left.
Not saying youre wrong just hadnt saw it or heard of it is all.
Last edited by FBHO71; 06/16/16 04:26 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,956
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,956 |
Also Arch..Ive witnessed open carry do the same thing and didnt get arrested or ticketed and that was dealing with the police at the same place I believe. Again, I can only speak for Ohio. Open carry is legal in Ohio. In public. I'm almost certain the same thing applies though: If there's a "no guns allowed" sign on a business, open or concealed, LEGALLY, you're not allowed to carry in/on said property.
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Police: Approximately 20 killed in
Florida club shooting
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