DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum I’m a Skins fan who has watched RG3 for 4 years & analyzed the film. Here’s what you can expect.

First off, some misconceptions.

“RG3 isn’t the same because he blew out his knee.”
He might not be as fast as he once was, but he’s still pretty dang fast. 4.35 speed vs 4.40 speed, for example. The reason why he struggled so much in 2013 and 2014 was because he told Shanahan he didn’t want to run the read-option anymore. He wanted to be a pocket passer. Now never mind the fact that he has never been a strong pocket passer, IMO it’s absurd that he wanted to take out one of the key parts of his game. Guys were wide-open BECAUSE the defense was playing to stop the read-option. When they knew he wasn’t going to run, they started playing him like any other QB. As far as his knee health, Shanahan said in an interview recently that he was informed from Dr. James Andrews that Robert's original ACL reconstruction was shoddily done and the knee was a ticking time bomb anyway. Andrews said the knee is stronger now than before the 2012 injury.

“The Redskins just needed to give RG3 another chance.”
He LITERALLY got EVERY chance. 13 games of 2013 before Shanahan benched him in a desperation move, was named the starter in 2014 before injuring himself. Came back, had a solid start, then had an absolutely dreadful game. See the analysis here. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-s...dskins-offense/ He came back for the final couple games and was named the starter right after the season. But with an offseason where minimal progress was seen by the coaching staff, he was benched after the second preseason game. Redskins went on to turn their 4-12 record in 2014 to 9-7 and a playoff berth in 2015.

Where he excels:
-He’s incredible in the run game, if he so chooses. He’s not very agile but has elite (for any player) north-south speed. If he gets to the edge, watch out because it can very easily become a footrace. See this video where he runs for a 76 yard TD in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEepmb-KlDc
-He has a cannon of an arm, and a great velocity. He’s generally been quite accurate too, though I think he’s struggling a little now after changing some mechanics in the off-season.
-He can extend plays with his legs and evade defenders when he needs to. See this play from 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLv0hS5n5X0

Where he struggles:
-He’s made many plays off-schedule, but it’s to the point where he doesn’t know how to go ON-SCHEDULE. He’s def not a timing QB
-Can’t read defenses. Too often he stares down a receiver which leads to incompletions or turnovers. He got better at the staring down thing in late 2014, but still has not shown he can make the right reads consistently
-OL Blocking. Griffin frequently came under fire for blaming his OL for bad blocking when the issue was Griffin not calling the right protection and doing the right drop back. He’d take 7 steps instead of 5, etc.
-Footwork. He throws with a wide base and frequently throws off his back foot. He gets away with it because he has a cannon of an arm, but it’s still something that needs to be fixed.
-Pocket awareness. Griffin was notorious for holding onto the ball for too long and taking sacks. In the 7 games he started in 2014, he was sacked 33 times. Kirk Cousins was sacked 26 times the entire 2015 season
-Immaturity. He’s thrown his follow teammates under the bus many times. One time he blamed his OL when the issue was Griffin not calling the right protection and doing the right drop back. He also has a tendency to say passive-aggressive things on social media and/or press conferences. Things tend to be about him, he’s a bit self-absorbed. As a result, it brings increased scrutiny. It sucks but I already see this in Cleveland with him throwing the ball so far out of bounds it lands in the parking lot, and making comments like “who says i can’t slide!?” after sliding.

NFL Comparison: I’d compare him to Johnny Manziel. Manziel was a pure athlete that struggled with designed plays (going off-schedule most of the time). The pocket made him uncomfortable. Off the field issues for Griffin are MUCH less than Manziel, but still some are there. For what it’s worth, the Redskins were total drama from late 2012-summer 2015. Once he was benched, the drama went away overnight.
-Injuries. He has a knack for getting totally ragdolled when he gets hit. He doesn't seem to know how to brace or limit his hits. He's also had his share of fluke injuries. He was out for 6ish weeks in 2014 because he got his ankle caught in a divot on the turf. Also has had 2-3 concussions since his rookie year. That can be a concern if that number keeps climbing because of CTE and the risk for further concussions is higher.

Bottom line: Unless he’s taken serious strides at becoming a QB that can read defenses and go through progressions, Rg3’s best bet will be to run a read-option heavy offense with quick reads. In 2012, one of our most common (and most successful plays) was to come out in a read-option look, fake the handoff, then hit the WR running a quick slant over the middle.

He’s got talent, but he needs to check his ego at the door and buckle down in the film room. He’s done the best when he has confidence, so expect the first couple games to not ask a lot of him, in order to build his confidence. I really hope RG3 turns it around in Cleveland, I really do. I hope he learned from his mistakes in Washington. He’s like Vick in that he’s electric to watch. You guys really deserve a good QB. I’ll be rooting for ya (besides week 3 :P)

Thanks for the thoughtful post and for taking the time to give us some info!

But those words right there will scare off many fans (especially the Manziel comparison ... yeesh).

I think many people view RG3 as a lottery ticket that Hue Jackson hopes to cash in with ... and if it doesn't work out then not a big deal

Yeah Manziel has WAY more issues. But Rg3 still can be an off-the-field distraction. Also, like I said, both are off-schedule most of the time. They haven't quite understood timing routes in the pros. If the play calls for a 5 step drop off of play action, then hitting the WR on an in route, there have been times where he doesn't throw it for whatever reason and just scrambles outside the pocket for a short (1-2 yard) run or an incompletion. IMO, RG3 is a rich man's Manziel.

It can work if RG3 is willing to run the option, which I'm sure Hue Jackson would be delighted to run. But we better hope he doesn't draw a line in the sand with what he does and does not want to run, like he did in Washington. He also had a reputation for not spending much time in the film room. That needs to change.

But yeah if it doesn't pan out, the Browns could be in a position to draft DeShaun Watson, who's a good fit for Hue's offense.

From what I've read and heard Hue plans to try and develop RG3's pocket presence while also tailoring the offense to his skills: rolling him out and moving the pocket.

In terms of the film room ... yes, that needs to change if he has any chance. He doesn't have the ability to just win on talent/intelligence (hell, no QB really does anymore). If he's not humbled by now he never will be.

RG3 was a low risk pick up in a year that didn't exactly have a lot of choices...

J/c

I can't recall a player who achieved Griffin's level of success, production and adoration that has had their perception take such a total 180. The perception of Griffin in the mainstream media, as exemplified by kgor93, doesn't seem to match his actual on the field production. To compare Griffin to Manziel is such an obvious stretch. And where does it all come from? Did Griffin play poorly and get benched in 2014? Yup. But so did Cousins. There has been a referendum on Griffin's career where a few bad games, which typically would be consider outliers, have come to represent the sum of his career.

....Well that and.......I would be remiss not leave out a very disgruntled former HC (that no owner will touch with a 10 foot pole) has been talking about Griffin non-stop since his firing.

Anyhow enough, of all that preamble. Perhaps this is too nuanced a discussion to have in this forum. i.e. the power a disgruntled 'source' can have to create perception in today's media.

Anyhow...there are too many inaccuracies and opinions presented as fact in kgor93 post to address them all.

Ultimately though all the perceptions, opinions, stats, analysis don't really matter anyway they will either become facts or falsehoods based how Griffin's plays.

But, I will address one main narrative:
-In 2013 Griffin executed read-option and Mike Shanahan and staff called read options plays. PERIOD. The idea that they played him like any other QB is NOT TRUE. Nevermind the fact that Griffin was coming off a knee surgery but was still out there running read-option with a knee brace. Wanna see Griffin running read-option in a knee brace in the 2013 season? Watch the vid below (direct clip @ 3:18 from the Bears game)




-Which "they" are you referring to when you say...'they struggled so much in 2013 and 2014'? The offense was the best unit on the team in 2013. Griffin took a step back from his phenomenal rookie year but still had a good year by any 2nd year QB measures.

-According to Shanahan....but according to Griffin he didn't make demands about the offense. (and when you actually watched the games you can clearly see that read-option was NOT removed from the offense)

-What is actually wrong with wanting to be developed as pocket passer?
--------------------------------------------------------

You do make some good football critiques of his game that I actually agree with...but I had to address at least this one inaccuracy before I could rightfully engage in other discussion.

Cheers-HTTR

Thanks for the post. I think we all know most of this. We are just hoping Hue can correct the bad an accentuate the good in RG3. If he can we should have a solid QB. Its a cheap experiment. With possible high rewards. I think a big part has already changed. He has eaten a huge humble pie and will leave drama at the door. His biggest hurdle will be reading the D. I think everything else is fixable.

Think your first paragraph summed it up completely edromeo.

I don't have high expectations for RG3 ... I'm not expecting him to be the comeback player of the year - or light it up and be a top 5 QB in the NFL. But I do expect to see him play better than the popular media image that he has been labelled with. There are a lot of factors that went into his decline. The HC's lack of concern for his well being not being the least of them. He should never have been out there at the end of his Rookie season.

I am hopefully that Hue can pull off a coaching masterstroke and get us good play from RG3 ... and RG3 has all the motivation in the world to work his butt off and produce.

Here's hoping.

Thanks for posting this. You sound mixed on him as well. The talents exceed the dedication and consistency. I pray to the Leather Goddess of Pigskin he is NOT JFF's replacement. But he has skills if he can be bothered to use them, and if he drop some of his brat baggage off. Good read. Ready to look for some of this.

I can't believe some people would listen to two organizations that clearly were trying to run RG3 into the ground.

Bottom line, new place new beginnings. He is gonna have a hell of a time unseating Josh even if the Browns would prefer him to take the helm. He is gonna have to earn it on the field.

Thanks for the insight. It's always nice to hear from the other side.

I actually think RG3 is going to do well under Hue. I know we've heard that he's struggled in some of these camps, but I really believe Hue is breaking him down, and will build him back up in training camp. I really don't think there is any competition once this thing starts. It's RG3's job to lose. Hue has a track record with quarterbacks, and I like that they have a slew of young, hungry receivers. You have 2 headaches out of the building in Manziel and Gordon, and the last headache in there will probably be gone unless he changes his attitude (Gilbert).

My worry is that he gets hurt. Not that I care that much about our draft position this year, because I think we'll have the resources to move up to take a QB if we want to... but I really see this team starting off nice, but I worry about Griffin's durability. It's a horrible way to think, but we've kinda seen it all in Cleveland.

Would love to see a rebirth of the guy we saw early on. but he has a lot to learn about the position, and I get that the NFC East is always competitive, but man is it a different beast in the AFC North, especially when you're the Browns, and 6 of your games are against Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and the Bengals.

Could you provide more detail about exactly what that track record encompasses?

I think Hue brings a resume that is frankly light years better than any Browns HC since 1999.
But being a realist....Jackson has been lucky to come into
Some situations where a good QB was already in place.
Remember he has not been a QB coach or OC only in the NFL.
He's coached RBs. WRs...secondaries.
I think he is well rounded
But he's not going to be a difference maker with RG3.
That's up to RG3

I had no faith in RGIII in Washington, and that has continued here. He's just a run/scramble QB, with no other weapons and his first-aid kit is running, if it hasn't already, out of contents.

Thank you for the post though. It's nice to hear from the other side!

jc -

I love the fact that Hue is a head coach who will readily admit you can't win in the NFL without a QB. Then I love the fact that he sets out to solve that issue i.e., he takes action.

By not being able to land Goff, Hue has kind of created a mess though. I don't think he likes McCown for two reasons - a) age and b) track record of losing. However, McCown is a better QB than RG3. What kind of message is it going to send the team if he ends up starting RG3 if he clearly isn't the better QB?

My prediction is RG3 flops in camp and forces Hue's hand. McCown starts the season. The Kessler era begins around week 4. We draft #1 overall next year.

Would love it if Kessler turned into our Tom Brady though. After the Cavs, anything is possible it seems. Fingers crossed.

I think when people say that, they point to Flacco in Baltimore and perhaps to a certain extent, Big Red in Cincy.. Not sure how valid either is.

Thanks for the post, kgor93. Good read!

I think that just might be part of the Browns secret plan, I really do. In time? We shall see.

Can't wait for RG3 to shut up all the "experts"

We'll see. He's got the best opportunity to do that here. His competition is a 37 year old quarterback, a rookie and Austin from what I remember when he played against Pittsburgh, fumbled it and threw two INTs. Not much of a credible resume at his previous place, either.

Sadly, the fact that RGIII hasn't done enough in Hue's eyes, against the competition mentioned above, to lock up a QB spot before training camp is highly concerning and etc.

My question is how much of a leash does Jackson give
RG3 if he struggles right out the gate?
At this point the intelligent approach is to make
RG3 a game manager and put your put your offense on the
Back of the running game and hope your oline
Can actually grow a set and move defenses and create holes

No one knows, absolutely including my self, how this RG3 experiment will work out. This argument, or concern, or whatever people want to call it that Griffin hasn't been named the starter yet is somehow a problem, I don't get it.

New Quarterback, new scheme, not one padded practice to evaluate RG3 against a live pass rush. Of lessor importance but still a factor, how would naming a QB without sufficient evaluation effect the "new anti-entitlement culture" that Jackson is trying to instill in the team? This fan and media impatience to name the Browns starter just seems like more of the same type of thinking this franchise has contended with since coming back into the league. If the organization were to succumb to this it would just be a sign to me of, "same ol' Browns. To his credit, Jackson has clearly and consistently said he will do it when he feels in his judgement it is the right time.

Jackson has said it. You can't get better at football without playing football. Arguably nothing approximating real football has taken place in the OTAs and minicamps. Installs, and teaching techniques clearly are insufficient for making a decision of this magnitude.

And rightfully so. Hue is the best judge of timing, certainly not us or the media. You either put your trust in him to make the right call...or not.

There is no reason to sign RG3 unless you plan on starting him. Even if he isn't as "ready" as McCown. You are literally trying to catch "lightnight in a bottle" and hope Griffin goes back to his rookie form. It's a bunch of luck, and hope, and maybes.

If he does, holy crap that's awesome, if he's average, maybe we can work with that, if he sucks, well everyone assumes that so who cares?

So unless Kessler shocks everyone is is super duper ready to go.

RG3 will be the starter.

I respect Greg Cosell a lot. I wish he'd had taken more serious time to discuss Cleveland.

I have a co-worker who is a HUGE skins fan and has RG3 posters all over his office. I will give you his take. (My buddy knows football, played D2). He feels RG3 will be great for us based on our system and Hue. He felt RG was a primadonna and essentially failed based on poor work ethic and he and Shanahan HATED each other. Neither was willing to find a happy medium after his knee injury. One issue which was neither of their faults was that the Redskins Oline was pure crap with the exception of LT, another reason why they ran the offense the way they did. My buddy claims the receiving corps was not very good also a couple of years ago. He says if RG is willing to buy in the sky's the limit, he has all the tools.
We could have a steal, he needed to be out of Wash, too much baggage/ burnt bridges. I personally don't agree with Greg Cosell, even though I do respect him a lot. The eye in the sky doesn't lie but it also doesn't explain game situations on a young QB, play calls, blown route reads, poor oline reads, and other breakdowns which ain't always on the QB. The Shanahans are about The Shanahans, they didn't accept a lot of blame when things went south either. I hope we get a well adjusted QB who listens and learns from Mccown.

I think that Cosell's comments were fair and unbiased. He said a couple of negative things, but he had good things to say about Crow and Higgens. I think many posters don't like objective thinking and immediately want to trash anyone who doesn't go ga-ga over everything that is the Browns.

You may be right, Vers. Cosell may be right, especially in complimenting Crow. I hope for the best; we will need to accept the rest, at least this year. Way too many variables in play for a judgment on RG3 at this point. Condemning him outright seems premature and oversimplified IMO. Not trying to be "ga ga" over him by any stretch. Also not inclined to give Cosell a pass for a negative article. I am waiting to see for meself.

Hope we get production either way. He apparently wanted or needed a negative article.
Mission accomplished. Questioning everything with eyes wide open seems sound. This article sounds like other expert sportswriters who maintain since it has never happened, it never might. Think Cavs. Not saying we will be great; issues abound.
But this little idea sets the bar conveniently low, IMO way too low, for what Hue might be able to get out of this player in this system.

I think Cosell is the best evaluator out there who doesn't work for a team. You never get the impression he's got a dog in the race. He just gives it to you straight.

Yup.

And, while I tend to interpret much of what Hue says regarding RG3 the same way Cosell is, at the same time I kinda get the feeling that Hue is talking TO RG3 when he's making those comments - kinda challenging him publicly.

So, it's clear the kid has work to do, but perhaps it isn't all lost, yet.

I think the younger Cosell has been pretty accurate in the past regarding his evaluations. I have no clue if he'll be right in this situation, but he's not the Chris Broussard of the NFL.

So, you don't agree w/Cossell's positive takes regarding McCown, Crow, and Higgens?

Yeah, Cossell's comments about RGIII were a combination of what he has seen in RGIII's past and trying to draw inferences from Hue's comments. Obviously, it should not be taken as some sort of defining summation.

I will say that I've always liked Crow and the Higgens kid is a WR I liked before the draft and I even had him on my list of guys we should take.

I think Cossell is one of the better reporters out there. But again, he was speculating about RGIII.

And that's really all anyone has to go on right now, speculation.

Looking at RG3's last couple of years combined with Cossell "reading between the lines", he's making perfect sense. Unless and until RG3 manages to break out of his cocoon, there's really no other logical conclusion to come to.

Sure we all hope he performs well. But to believe that is more of a leap of faith than anything based on recent evidence.

We've heard it all already. Nothing new.

RGIII is being paid QB backup pay. We got him on the cheap. The Skins gave up on him.

If RGIII studs out and becomes the long term franchise QB here the Redskins will be kicking themselves. Brownies have nothing to loose with RGIII. Nothing at all.