DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Obscure Major League Baseball Rules

There’s many obscure rules (and instances where there are no rules).

For instance, do you know the difference between a tip into the catcher’s glove (for a strike) and a pop-up to the catcher for an out?

This is one I’ve always wondered about. I’m not sure what the criteria between the two is. Maybe it’s if the ball goes over the batter’s head?

Do you recall any strange or extremely rare umpire calls you’ve seen?

I dont know why I think this, but I think if the ball goes higher than the catcher's head (in the squat position) it becomes a foul out

GM's link sort of explains it, but doesn't really explain when a foul tip becomes a foul ball out. People say "over the catcher's head", but that's not actually in the rule book. I think it's more of a rule of thumb, but the distinction is never made. A foul-tip is suppose to be a quick ricochet that goes straight into the catcher's glove.

I've seen a rec game where this became an issue. Someone swung at a low pitch and it sort of looped up in the air a few feet and was caught by the catcher. The umpire called it a foul tip because it didn't go over the catcher's head. But looking at the rulebook now, this probably could of been called an out.

Why if the catcher drops the 3rd strike can the runner try to get to 1st, forcing the catcher to throw him out? He never makes it unless it's a pass ball and if he swung and missed he's already out anyway. Dumb rule.

I was going to say, in MLB, it's almost impossible, as fast as the ball is moving, for a catcher to catch the ball unless it either grazes the bat and comes straight back, or goes relatively high in the air.. it's not like if the bat redirects the ball by a couple feet a catcher is going to be able to get to it..

I agree, that always seemed like a pretty stupid rule.

Unless it's just some fluke thing where it lands/gets stuck on the catcher somehow. Like it pops up 2 feet and gets wedged in his mask. Lol weird to think about.

Another rule that's always bothered me is from NCAAF. Obviously the knee on the ground is down in college. But holders on FG/XP place the ball down with their knee on the ground. Shouldn't that be down? And what if they try a fake FG?

J/C

I always thought that if the catcher didn't get out of his stance and caught the ball it was considered a foul tip and if he did leave his stance then it was a pop up.

No, if it hits the umpire or catcher anywhere other than the catcher's mitt, it's considered a dead ball. Similar to the ball hitting the backstop. If the ball hits the catcher's mitt and then pops into the air and he catches it, it's still considered a foul-tip that the catcher (eventually) caught.

My dad was a little league umpire for a few years, and I remember going over all these crazy rule scenarios with him. It's nuts. I can see why some people would prefer soccer over baseball.

The "catching a ball in the stands rule" is mind numbing too. It's considered a catch as long as both feet are "over" the playing surface of the ball park. So you can lay out, over a wall, and catch a ball 4 rows deep, so long as your feet are still hanging over the field. If your feet aren't hanging over the field of play, it's considered a dead ball. So you can't just jump into the stands, walk up some stairs and catch it.

Now, if your feet leave the field of play after you catch it, as in you dove over a wall as you were catching the ball, then it's considered a "dead ball after an out". All remaining runners get to advance one base.

You mean that soccer with it's clearly defined goal area is better than our armpits to knees strike zone or is that belt to knees strike zone?

Except when you see a catcher drop the ball, and then kick it when he tries to recover it. I've seen that once, and the batter made the base. Catchers do sometimes lose that ball.

Not only that, but a bad throw from the catcher to first. I saw that happen 3 times this year in h.s. baseball.

None of that changes the fact it's a ridiculous rule. if the catcher drops the 2nd strike it's a strike but if he drops the 3rd strike it's what, a backwards bunt? Abner Doubleday was drinking too much when he came up with that one.

Oh, I won't argue it's a good rule. I don't understand it, don't get me wrong there.

But if you swung and missed on strike 3, you should be out. I don't care if the balls goes down the catchers pants and up his butt, you should still be out.

The point isn't that sometimes you get to first safely, the point is, why should you get to go to first at all?

I can't really think of another rule like it in all of sports..

I don't know, it seems that the current definition of a catch in the NFL qualifies. Even if you clearly have possession of the ball, if you don't do a set number of things (i.e. catch the foul tip) then you don't actually make the catch. It's like how the ground can't cause a fumble but it can negate a catch.

While I will give you that those rules are extremely confusing.. can you think of any rule in any sport where if you fail.. but the guy on the other team also fails, you didn't fail?

It would be like if a WR was coming across the field and the ball was thrown to him and it went through his hands.. it's a drop. But if the baseball rules applied, if the defender behind you catches it, it's a turnover... but if he doesn't, the WR can pick it up and run with it.

As soon as I read the title of this thread, I thought of this book, one of my favorite sports books.
THE RULES AND LORE OF BASEBALL

"What does the umpire do when there are three players on the same base or two baseballs in play at the same time? What is the Stargell rule? Can a dead man score a run? These are only a few of the questions that are answered in this fascinating study of baseball's rules and the way they have been broken in baseball history. First hand accounts by the umpires involved in controversial decisions and exciting plays that have made baseball history."

Great book filled with a lot of history and some fantastic stories.

OK, I'm curious.

How does a dead man score a run?

Never mind FATE.

I just bought The Rules and Lore of Baseball (used) for $3.45 on Amazon.com.

I can't wait to get it. Thanks FATE.

That actually does sound like a good read. And I hate reading books!

If first base is occupied prior to pitch and less than 2 outs,batter is declared out and no throw required to first base. Now if first base is not occupied prior to pitch with no outs or less than two outs,is catcher required to throw to first to complete the play for batter to declared out and a runner occupying second base or third base and/or second and third runners may advance at their own peril.

If there are two or three runners occupying the same base at the same time the defensive player with ball may tag the preceedig runner to that base and that runner shall be declared out. If in your reference three runners at same base at same time time,I'm assuming you mean third base,the defense tags the 2 preceeding runners to that base in order of arrival from their previous occupied base location then these two runners shall be declared out. Now let's say that there are two outs with sacks jammed batter k's and catcher misses ball or drops ball and man on second stays put,runner from first advances to second and the batter advances to second while the aforementioned runners occupy second all at same time you tag runner from fist base first then batter and then the umpire will declare the runner from first as out and should the runner from score this run shall not count. Can a dead man sore a run-providing he touches home plate prior to deceasing life.

Haha. Let us know when you read it, I can't find my copy! Hope you enjoy it.

FATE:

I finally got it in the mail yesterday.



Last night I had to force myself to put it down so I could get a decent night’s sleep. Thanks for the recommendation. It's every bit as good as you described it.

I’ll be reading it at poolside with a huge Ice Coffee later today.

I'm thinkin' I better use the SPF 1,000,000 lest I lose track of time.

All baseballs must be caught first to complete an out of a base runner in MLB. Even the third strikeout pitch from a pitcher must be caught to complete the out. If it's not caught the batter becomes a base runner. Stupid or not, it's that simple. The baseball must be caught first to complete the out of a base runner.

What if a base runner gets hit by a batted ball or gets called for interference? In both cases the base runner is out.. and no ball has to be caught.

So I still think it's stupid.

They caught the ball in the ribs.

This book is great. (Baseball Rules and Lore)

This afternoon I read the “Two balls in play at the same time” story. (It’s mentioned on the back cover of the book - when I saw this I wondered how that could possibly happen).

The story is even more bizarre than I imagined. Here it is:

Stan Musial was the batter and had a 3-1 count. The next pitch was called ball four by the home plate umpire.

But the ball ticked something and rolled to the backstop.

The catcher immediately got up and started arguing that the ball tipped Musial’s bat. (a foul tip) The umpire argued back that the ball tipped the catcher’s mitt.

Musial jogged down to first base.

In the meantime, the ball boy went and retrieved the ball.

Musial’s teammates started yelling at him to keep running.(because the pitch was called a ball and at this point was a passed ball)

Third baseman Alvin Dark saw Musial turn the corner and head to second and he immediately sprinted to get the ball behind home plate. The ball boy saw Dark charging him and dropped the ball.

Meanwhile, the umpire instinctively gave the catcher a new ball while they were arguing.

The catcher saw Musial running to second and threw the ball he was just handed to second base. (at the same time Dark got the ball at the back stop and also threw to second base)

Two balls sailed to second base.

Shortstop Ernie Banks grabbed one of them. The other ball went into center field. Musial only saw the ball head into the outfield and rounded second.

Banks was standing there with the first ball and tagged Musial out a few steps past second.

That’s when play was finally halted.

The second base umpire had kept his eye on the passed ball the whole time and called Musial out trying to go to third.

Then the umpires met and ruled Musial safe back on first base. That the bat boy interference had made it a dead ball. (Musial walked but could not advance)

Then the umpires reconvened after the coach's protested and ruled Musial out. (if a ball comes in contact with non-player personnel properly on the field (unintentionally), the ball is “in play” - Musial is thrown out)


The final ruling (after the game) was that while the bat boy didn’t intend to interfere with play, his actions of picking-up the ball were intentional. And thus it’s a dead ball (Musial should have been safe at first)

I was tired just reading this story. (and completely entertained)

haha thats a neat story

The after game ruling is the correct ruling. IF I remember properly Once the ball is ball is dead the new ball can not be considered in play until in the pitcher's possession and he must be on the mound and address the batter and umpire gives pitcher signal to start play while on mound. Had not the ball boy not touched the original and Al Dark put it in play as he did that ball is considered live and in play,any runners may advance at their own peril to safely arrive at the succeeding base. The home plate umpire was wrong for giving the catcher a new ball while they where arguing as the home plate ump did not grant time on the touched passed ball in the field of play. The new ball given to the catcher was a dead ball and could not be put in play until as I stated before. Now in the case of situation when a manager or his appointed rep comes on field of play to dispute an ump's judgement or the same for a player in game on the field of at the time of ump's judgement the game is still live and ball is in play until all offensive play is at a stand still or argueing player or mgr's appointed rep is given the heave-ho then a ump may grant time should he desire. All calls on the field of play ie- balls,strikes,safe,out are considered umpire judgement decessions and can not be disputed. Only rules to uniforms,equipment,ground rules or any foreign substances added to ball in play to give defense unfair advantage or altering a bat can be disputed and only when requested to an ump after time on the field of play is granted by that ump.

OK, so far so good. The umpire had ruled ball four on Musial and the fact that the ball rolled past the catcher made it a passed ball.

Handing the catcher another ball was clearly a lapse by the umpire while arguing with the catcher.



Absolutely.



So the ball's live behind the catcher and Musial can keep running. And isn't he out when Dark retrieves the ball and fires it to Banks at second base?

Only if the ball that was the passed ball was used to tag Stan the Man,then he is out and this is if the ball boy had not touched the past ball. The ball becomes a dead ball when it is touched a fan,player,team rep,field employee (ground crew,ball boy) while on the field of play after being put in play on the pitch initiating the action involving the ten players involved (may be up to 14 if bases are full) at the time of pitch.

Oh yeah, forgot.

Ball boy's "intentional" touching of the ball made it dead.

Musial on first, only.

And no ball would be in play until:

"Once the ball is dead the new ball can not be considered in play until in the pitcher's possession and he must be on the mound and address the batter and umpire gives pitcher signal to start play while on mound."

Rockyhill, Are you going to be behind the plate and I take the base paths or we switch with me at plate,you on base path? Remember once the managers come to home plate before game,discuss ground rules and exchange lineup cards with homeplate ump and each other we are in control of game and our decisions are binding and the managers or team owners have no input or say so in decisions. I miss this livelihood.

You are of course referencing Rule 4.01:

4.01 Unless the home club shall have given previous notice that the game has been postponed or will be delayed in starting, the umpire, or umpires, shall enter the playing field five minutes before the hour set for the game to begin and proceed directly to home base where they shall be met by the managers of the opposing teams. In sequence:

(a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire in chief, in duplicate.

(b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire in chief, in duplicate.

(c) The umpire in chief shall make certain that the original and copies of the respective batting orders are identical, and then tender a copy of each batting order to the opposing manager. The copy retained by the umpire shall be the official batting order. The tender of the batting order by the umpire shall establish the batting orders. Thereafter, no substitutions shall be made by either manager, except as provided in the rules.

(d) As soon as the home team's batting order is handed to the umpire in chief the umpires are in charge of the playing field and from that moment they shall have sole authority to determine when a game shall be called, suspended or resumed on account of weather or the condition of the playing field. Obvious errors in the batting order, which are noticed by the umpire in chief before he calls "Play" for the start of the game, should be called to the attention of the manager or captain of the team in error, so the correction can be made before the game starts. For example, if a manager has inadvertently listed only eight men in the batting order, or has listed two players with the same last name but without an identifying initial and the errors are noticed by the umpire before he calls "play," he shall cause such error or errors to be corrected before he calls "play" to start the game. Teams should not be "trapped" later by some mistake that obviously was inadvertent and which can be corrected before the game starts.

Here's one for ya ...

Deep fly left field .. Left fielder catches it 5 steps from the wall .. He catches it takes the 5 steps to the wall and gently hits the wall and bounces slightly back ... He takes 4 steps back towards the infield and the ball falls out of his glove ...

Is that a catch ... More importantly .. Why or why not? ...

Here's another one ..

R = Runner ....

R1 and R3 .... 1 out ... Fly ball deep left field .. Caught ..

R1 thinks there's 2 outs and runs it out .. After touching 2nd he realizes there's only 1 out .. He re-touches 2nd and is thrown out at first on a close play after the relay from LF to SS to 1st ..

R3 legally tags and has crossed home plate before the out at first is recorded ...

Does the run count? ..

If u like these .. Let me know .. I can come up with at least a few more ...