|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
I have been thinking about doing a series of coach talk threads. We could discuss things like blitz packages, stunts, coverages, etc. There seems to be some interest in this and I hope you guys either add what you know to the threads or ask questions. Questions are good. They help us all learn. I’ll try my best not to get too technical but still talk about some things that you might not know.
I thought I would start off w/zone blocking. I am hoping that we see more of it in Cleveland this year and guys like Steinbach and Joe will thrive in it.
The biggest difference between zone blocking and man blocking is that multiple offensive linemen need to work together in zone blocking while in man blocking schemes each lineman knows who he is going to block before the play.
Zone blocking gained popularity mainly due to counter defenses that relied on a lot of movement. Defenses that have their defensive linemen run at angles coming off the LOS give man blocking teams a lot of trouble. Defensive ends are quick and when they pinch [or run inside at an angle] most offensive tackles have a hard time reaching them. This means the guard has to pick up the DE, but his responsibility was to go block the LBer, who is now free to run to the ball. Zone blocking relies more on blocking an area w/the help of your mates, of course.
Let me give you a few examples of how zone blocking works and then you can ask me some questions if you like.
As I talked about in the Grossi article the other day, offensive linemen can get a lot accomplished in OTAs. They don’t just come up to the LOS and put their hands down. Zone blocking is all about technique. Offensive linemen must work cohesively. Yeah, we have all heard that term, right? An offensive line must be cohesive. Well, this is where that started, so it actually is a working term.
Okay……imagine a running play to the right side. The RT and RG come off the LOS in unison. They must be hip-to-hip, shoulder-to-shoulder, and their footwork needs to be in sync. They double the DE, which doesn’t allow him to pinch down. They can be more aggressive because there are two of them. Then, depending on what hole the play is called for and what the LBer is doing, one of them slips off and attacks the LBer. I guess this would be a good spot for questions….LOL.
Let me add something that I forgot to mention earlier. Zone blocking gives you movement at the LOS. How many times have you seen a Brown’s RB run right into the backs of offensive lineman? Zone blocking gives you much more movement and isn’t based on plowing straight ahead. Good cutback runners thrive in zone blocking schemes. Can you figure out why by what I have just told you?
In pass blocking, the theme is the same. The line usually has 3 to 4 guys working in tandem on play side and 2 to 3 on the back side. The variable here is the TE. I’ll provide a couple of examples.
Play side: Let’s say the C-RG-RT are working together. They come off together at the same angle, not more than 5 to 10 degrees. Their shoulders, hips, and footwork have to be perfectly in sync. I’m even talking about the angle their feet are pointed at. Suppose the defense is running a stunt where the DE pinches and the DT is looping to the outside. The RT must punch the DE before passing him off to the guard and then open up and ride the looping DT outside. The RG tries to punch the DE while the DE is still at an angle, knocking him off balance. The C slides to that side just a bit [lateral movement] and is looking for a delayed blitz by an inside backer or safety.
Back side: The LT and LG open up together so if it’s 12:00 when they line up, they are now facing 10:30. It’s imperative that their shoulders are aligned and their feet are moving together. They “seal” off the backside. In other words, they are protecting the QBs blind side. Defensive ends, WLBers, and backside corners can be coming hard, and sometimes in tandem. It is huge that the backside o-linemen work together and know their responsibilities.
Another strength of zone blocking is that you can run many more formations out of it than you can in standard man blocking. Why? Because your offensive linemen are blocking an area instead of a predetermined man.
Typically, offensive linemen who excel in zone blocking schemes are more mobile, agile, and intelligent than the brutes who line up in man blocking techniques. We were lucky in that we had a lot of smart kids who could pick up the complexities of zone blocking.
This is huge. Zone blocking doesn’t call for a lot of different responsibilities or assignments, but it does call for a lot of techniques. And these techniques must be learned and perfected by all the offensive linemen, because they have to do them together. You can not be out of step. Have you ever seen synchronized swimmers, I think that’s what you call them…….you know, where the all move together, raising one leg out of the water at the same time……well, that is how a zone blocking offensive line should work. It takes a lot of repetitions to pull it off and you need smart and agile guys.
I hope I made this simple enough. Perhaps I made it too simple? I did deliberately leave out things so some people would ask questions. I don’t want this to be buried on page 2 w/in a day. Please feel free to add what you know about zone blocking or to ask questions. I’m sure that I wasn’t clear on some things and I know there has to be a lot of “what if” questions.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Thanks for the thread...will not be able to give the time needed until maybe Saturday Morning or Sunday evening. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550 |
Just my opinion but the main difference in zone blocking vs man up drive blocking is options.
With a drive blocking scheme tries to create one designed hole for the RB. If it gets plugged up then the RB is either stuffed or improvises and bounces the play outside or cuts back inside depending on the design but usually if that initial hole isnt open the RB is dead in his tracks.
Zone allows the back to make choices this is why you always hear the term great vision when talking about successful backs in zone blocking schemes. As the OL slides and spreads out the defense, you will have atleast 2 gaps and possible more to choose from. The MLB will often take one lane away but if u have the rb with patience and vision along with that mobile athletic offensive line they can seal the backside and allow the RB to go one on one with the safety that has now come up to help.
Now this is what you and i both agreed on with Joe Thomas. He is one of the best blocking tackles that I have ever seen once he gets into the secondary. He gets over there he can take that safety out of the play even in wide open space so can Steinbach.
Now I believe that drive blocking schemes are far more dependent upon total cohesiveness with the OL than Zone. (one of the reasons our blocking has sucked is a new guy there every week not just one every season)
One of the biggest keys in zone that is almost always overlooked is the RG. He is usually the most powerful and most often a bit slower. This makes his initial push extremely vital. If he gets driven back or taken down his body and legs are now in the way if the stretch play is coming his way. This is why i want tucker at RG Shaffer is a bit quicker but not nearly as strong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 435
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 435 |
Thanks Vers...I remember sending you a PM a while back about this kinda stuff. It'll really help me understand what I'm seeing on the field this fall. I appreciate it. 
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
I always viewed zone blocking as a human shield. You keep the guys in front of you and cover your area. I don't think you described how important that punch is. When a guy is leaving you area getting a hand on him to slow him down even the slightest bit can make or break the play.
I know coming from a defensive standpoint it is basically your job to try and not be touched.
I remember in high school (freshman when I was a DE before I got fast and everyone else got LARGE and TALL) if I didn't get a hand on the tightened that wasn't blocking, (who was releasing into a pass play) it was my head on a platter (laps around the field). It wasn't easy, becaus eI wanted to just run at the QB and sack him and the punch will slow you down some, unless of course I had contain responsibilities. The punch is a key part of helping your teammates.
All just my opinion and feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Trying to correct me on opinion will never work, but blocking isn't about opinions.
I know little to nothing about the offensive side of the ball other than watching where the guards and fullbacks go for defensive purposes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550 |
Just a few lines i thought would be interesting to browns fans from the Texans camp a couple of years ago about Steve Marshall our OL coach. web page
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,333
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,333 |
awesome thread!!!
We had bunch of 3-4 n D talk before....this is interesting cuz it's O-Line stuff...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Quote:
With a drive blocking scheme tries to create one designed hole for the RB. If it gets plugged up then the RB is either stuffed or improvises and bounces the play outside or cuts back inside depending on the design but usually if that initial hole isnt open the RB is dead in his tracks.
Yes, we have seen plenty of that in Cleveland, haven't we?
Quote:
Zone allows the back to make choices this is why you always hear the term great vision when talking about successful backs in zone blocking schemes. As the OL slides and spreads out the defense, you will have atleast 2 gaps and possible more to choose from. The MLB will often take one lane away but if u have the rb with patience and vision along with that mobile athletic offensive line they can seal the backside and allow the RB to go one on one with the safety that has now come up to help.
Yes, very much so. This kinda deals w/my points on movement at the LOS and why RBs do well if they have good cutback ability.
Quote:
Now this is what you and i both agreed on with Joe Thomas. He is one of the best blocking tackles that I have ever seen once he gets into the secondary. He gets over there he can take that safety out of the play even in wide open space so can Steinbach.
Yeah, that's what got me to thinking we may move towards a zone blocking scheme.
Quote:
Marshall is working with the rest of the linemen. He tells Brown to go with more power, then coaches him on where his eyes should be looking. He also gets with Pitts to work on getting his hands up. It’s pretty obvious that the staff has a lot of focus on getting the linemen to work on their technique and muscle memory to perform in the zone blocking scheme.
Interesting. I really hope we go to zone blocking. Standard man blocking, base blocking, drive blocking is an offense for dummies.
Another interesting thing here. Did you guys see the part about where his eyes should be looking? Anyone want to guess where?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Quote:
I always viewed zone blocking as a human shield. You keep the guys in front of you and cover your area. I don't think you described how important that punch is. When a guy is leaving you area getting a hand on him to slow him down even the slightest bit can make or break the play.
I brought it up here:
Suppose the defense is running a stunt where the DE pinches and the DT is looping to the outside. The RT must punch the DE before passing him off to the guard and then open up and ride the looping DT outside. The RG tries to punch the DE while the DE is still at an angle, knocking him off balance.
I basically just touched an several things and didn't go deep into any of them. But, you are right, the punch coming out of the stance is huge.
Buck and 1508: Thanks.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Zone allows the back to make choices this is why you always hear the term great vision when talking about successful backs in zone blocking schemes. As the OL slides and spreads out the defense, you will have atleast 2 gaps and possible more to choose from. The MLB will often take one lane away but if u have the rb with patience and vision along with that mobile athletic offensive line they can seal the backside and allow the RB to go one on one with the safety that has now come up to help.
Unfortunately we haven't had a back with great vision either..or serious cutback ability ..now we have a power back who can make those looks and cutback as evidenced when you watch JL.
One of the biggest keys in zone that is almost always overlooked is the RG. He is usually the most powerful and most often a bit slower. This makes his initial push extremely vital. If he gets driven back or taken down his body and legs are now in the way if the stretch play is coming his way. This is why i want tucker at RG Shaffer is a bit quicker but not nearly as strong.
With the lateral movement thats needed in zone blocking it's why we went away from plodding guards..we never had true athletic guards anyway but the guards we have can get out and hit those DT's and LBs' who come up or stunt into any gaps.
But I agree with you on having Tucker at RG, KS doesn't have a effective intitial punch and tends to lock his arms around a linemens chest instead of push him off.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,864 |
Who do you think the best zone blockers in the NFL are?
What do you think the prototypical zone blocking linemen should be built like?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,810
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,810 |
Quote:
Another interesting thing here. Did you guys see the part about where his eyes should be looking? Anyone want to guess where?
vers...I always stared at the defensive mans crotch if my man was head up or straight ahead if there was no man over me. It worked great for me.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Nice thread. Want to get into it more this weekend, but have you heard that we're working with more zone type blocking schemes this year, as opposed to man blocking? Seems like this would help a lot against at least two of our division rivals.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,103
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,103 |
Great post and explanation...especially on the passing game elements.
Just a few things I wanted to add
Most NFL teams use some variation on the zone scheme...what's popular with it now is what Gibbs/Kubiak/Shanahan did, which was add the crack back block to it. In fact, just about every team that uses a zone blocking scheme is a team that runs a variation of the West Coast Offense...since Bill Walsh mastered it (which he stole from Paul Brown anyways)
Denver
Indy
Green Bay
Houston
Tampa (use more of a man scheme, but they incorporate some elements of the zone)
There a few teams that use modified zone schemes, but don't run WCO's...
Baltimore (although they do it poorly)
San Diego
Then the only West Coast offense team that I can think of that doesn't really use the zone is Philadelphia.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,857
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,857 |
OUT Freakin Standing Thread Vers,,,, Thanks and all the responses,,, wow,,, very cool.. Why haven't we done something like this before? Well done!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,711 |
Quote:
Can you figure out why by what I have just told you?
well i'll give it a shot....
if the guard and tackle both hit the de, then he's gonna get forced outside of the play...depending on the block that the guard then gets on the backer, the rb can either bounce it outside, or cutback over the middle...
it gives the rb the advantage, because the other linebackers aren't going to have the best angle of attack as they have initial responsibilities with other gaps...
it also enables the rb to choose a different hole if there was a run blitz at the designated hole...the movement you talked about gives the the running back more options, as apposed the wall that were accustomed to seeing a yard deep in the backfield...
as far as pass blocking goes imo this is the best blocking scheme as it eliminates some of what the defense does to try and confuse the oline...
look how many times we saw pit run those delayed blitzes up the middle....(although that may have just been a talent problem) where the guard went to help the tackle, leaving the middle to the rb...
in other words getting beat, not lack of a scheme that would work...
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,620 |
Quote:
OUT Freakin Standing Thread Vers,,,, Thanks
and all the responses,,, wow,,, very cool.. Why haven't we done something like this before? Well done!
I agree.
Wonder if we can have a separate forum for stuff like this. Where the threads can stay around and not get buried.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,311
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,311 |
Cal: Yes, I have heard that we are moving to more a zone blocking scheme this year which is why it's very good that we got guys like Steinbach and Thomas working next to each other. They are not the HUGE road grader types that we're used to seeing on most teams, espcially in the run-down-your-throat AFC North. They are very quick and agile because they have to move in unison, like Vers explained, in order to cover their designated zones effectively.
This explains why our new o-line coach (forgot his name) doesn't want JT to gain any weight. He wants him to stay around 311 so he can stay agile. It also explains why he was working with him on the very first day of OTAs to tweak his technique a little bit. A lot of people questioned this about why we should be changing his technique since he was so successful in college doing what he does naturally. Well, it's because we're asking him to do something a little different than he's used to doing. He and Steinbach will be able to fire off the ball and completely fend off the left side from potential rushers, in theory. In my opinion, this is why it's even more important for him to get in there and gets reps with the first team because cohesiveness along the o-line is of dire importance, but it is even moreso in a zone blocking scheme.
And the reason why a back that can make quick reverse cuts thrives in this blocking scheme is because the play isn't set up from the huddle to block to one side or the other. The RB obviously doesn't know when the rush will be coming from the backside or the frontside, so he may have to stop on a dime and change direction quickly in order to turn it up and "run off the butt" of his blockers. It is going to be the linemen's responsibility to move with the flow of the rush and open running lanes for their backs. Well, I think what I said makes sense. I tend to spend a lot of time breaking down formations and devising schemes to attack offensive gaps or flaws rather than blocking schemes but it's not like I don't have to know the gist of what is happening along the line. Anyway, great thread Vers. Even the coaches can learn from this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,103
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,103 |
I hope the Browns still use Steinbach to pull though, even if they are going with a more zone based attack. He's a top 3 pulling guard in the NFL.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,720 |
Great thread Vers! You know,I sent Saint a PM telling him I thought we might be switching to more of this type of scheme by re-signing Fraley and adding Stenbach. I told him that if we drafted Thomas, I would be pretty sure we were. Steinbach,while very powerfull,has great athletacism. And many of us noticed how Fraley was quite able to block at the next level. So our personell that we acquired led me to believe that we were definately headed in this direction. Our OL has gotten so much more athletic over the past two seasons,that this just seems to me to be the natural progression of things. JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Wow, this is going better than I thought. Very good responses w/out any BS. I'll try to answer a few posters in one reply, but I don't think I can do them all at once. Quote:
Who do you think the best zone blockers in the NFL are?
What do you think the prototypical zone blocking linemen should be built like?
I really don't know the answer to the first question, but I think the Colts do a great job of it as a unit.
In regards to the second question, I don't know if you need a certain build, but I picture longer, more angular guys like Joe and Steinbach. The key is that you have to be quick out of your stance, have outstanding feet, be technically sound, and very intelligent. Lateral movement is very important and you want guys who can get to the second level.
mac: I agree w/you at the LOS. Somehow, I pictured the "eyes" comment being made when two offensive linemen are engaged w/one defensive lineman. Perhaps I just wanted to picture it that way because it is something I wanted to bring up. *L*
This is important. I mentioned earlier that you get more movement at the point of attack and there is are initial double teams. But make no mistake, the LBer still has to be accounted for. Thus, once both o-linemen are engaged w/the d-lineman, they must have their heads up and focused on the LBer. His movement tells them which one slides off the d-lineman and engages the LBer. Pretty cool, huh? And obviously, you better have two offensive linemen that work well w/each other and know what the other guy is going to do. Do you guys see how this can simulated w/out pads? And can you see why practicing techniques is so important? That's why I get upset when people say you can't tell anything until you get the pads on. I can tell a lot and any coach worth his salt can too.
Cal: I really don't know for sure if they are moving more to zone schemes or not. I sure get the feeling they are.
And you brought up a great point about our division rivals......both Baltimore and Pittsburgh drive us nuts w/all their movement. We've all seen it. And we've all seen our running backs run into the backs of our offensive linemen as a result, right? And have you ever yelled at your TV............how the hell did he come in there untouched!? LOL.....It's movement and it's hard to account for when you rely on straight man blocking. Make sense?
I think I'll touch on this more when I respond to a couple of other people. One more thing......for those of you who aren't interested in schemes.....perhaps you can think about which of our offensive linemen fit the bill in regards to having what it takes to be effective at zone blocking and who might struggle???
Kardiac, thanks for the help. BigC and racer.....I'll get back to you guys in a bit. You both made some great points!
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,069 |
Quote:
Play side: Let’s say the C-RG-RT are working together. They come off together at the same angle, not more than 5 to 10 degrees. Their shoulders, hips, and footwork have to be perfectly in sync. I’m even talking about the angle their feet are pointed at. Suppose the defense is running a stunt where the DE pinches and the DT is looping to the outside. The RT must punch the DE before passing him off to the guard and then open up and ride the looping DT outside. The RG tries to punch the DE while the DE is still at an angle, knocking him off balance. The C slides to that side just a bit [lateral movement] and is looking for a delayed blitz by an inside backer or safety.
Hey Vers, great thread first off. The one thing that I didn't see mentioned in an example like the one above is a non-delayed blitz. How would say the same C-RG-RT combination handle a stacked blitz on their side with let's say a linebacker and a safety (plus the DL)?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813 |
Nice thread, of course starting with an OL topic really helps Can't wait for more.
...always have been, always will be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,311
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,311 |
Quote:
Wonder if we can have a separate forum for stuff like this. Where the threads can stay around and not get buried.
I thought about this myself. Maybe have a forum for 'Football 101' where we talk all about Xs and Os separate from news about the Browns or whatever because when training camp starts, threads like this may be get buried quickly. I guess we'll see.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
Excellent Vers. I'll take time to read this thread, hopefully sometime this weekend. I knew this would go over really well. Nice job.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 237
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 237 |
First off thank's for the time and effort you put into this.
I see from the explanation your givning for zone blocking where the running game can really excel, but just wondering if it has the same potential for the passing game?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,311
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,311 |
otown: Anytime your running game can excel, you leave a lot open for your passing game. In past years, we relied heavily on the run in order to pass if/when we needed to. However, as we all witnessed, when you set yourself up like that and then are unable to deliver with the running game, you put yourself in a position where you MUST pass. Defenses didn't respect our ability to run or play-action, so they would then shut down our passing game as well. It didn't take much gameplan-wise for our opponents to stop us in the past few years. But from the sounds of it, this year is going to be a whole new ballgame. We are installing a new offense, with (most-likely) a zone blocking scheme for the o-line which will compliment what we're trying to do on the ground. That, in turn, will compliment what we're trying to do through the air. We will not rely on the run to open up the pass necessarily. We are going to take what they give us and, hopefully, take advantage of the mismatches that we will create. For example, short intermediate running routes over the middle where big lug linebackers can't hang with our speed. Bottom line: If our running game is improved, defenses will respect it. If they respect our running game, they won't be able to completely dismantle our ability to pass the ball. All that and a lot better protection and time for our QBs should allow for a much more explosive offense. Zang!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,813 |
Quote:
Quote:
Wonder if we can have a separate forum for stuff like this. Where the threads can stay around and not get buried.
I thought about this myself. Maybe have a forum for 'Football 101' where we talk all about Xs and Os separate from news about the Browns or whatever because when training camp starts, threads like this may be get buried quickly. I guess we'll see.
I would like to third that motion.
...always have been, always will be...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
"I see from the explanation your givning for zone blocking where the running game can really excel, but just wondering if it has the same potential for the passing game?"
Excellent reading so far...still got a lot more to finish...just skimming the posts as I got a few minutes.
As per passing game...basically in a raw form all pass blocking should be Zone blocking per say or else every stunt would be successful. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 237
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 237 |
Kardiac thank's for the reply and i understand that when you can run the ball it will open up the passing.
My question is say we are down in a game where we have to pass, what makes zone blocking better then man blocking or does it?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Quote:
Most NFL teams use some variation on the zone scheme...what's popular with it now is what Gibbs/Kubiak/Shanahan did, which was add the crack back block to it. In fact, just about every team that uses a zone blocking scheme is a team that runs a variation of the West Coast Offense...since Bill Walsh mastered it (which he stole from Paul Brown anyways)
Hi BigC.......haven't seen you around before. It seems like you have some knowledge. Keep posting!
I guess this is as good a place to add this as any and I was hoping someone would ask. There are many teams that use a combination of man blocking and zone blocking. We even used to run both at the same time. It's not really that crazy. For instance, we might man block---we called it base blocking---on the play side and zone block on the backside. And we did it for both running and pass plays.
Let me think if I can give an example using the Browns. Let's say that Tuck and Shaffer are on the right side and we line Heiden up over there too. We have those three guys base block, because they are fairly strong at the point of attack. And then, Hank, Steinbach, and Joe zone block. We could even send either Joe or Steiney or both to the second level. This would enable us to run counters, something we haven't seen much of from the Browns and would be great for a cut-back runner like Lewis.
racer: First off...........real solid post.
Quote:
if the guard and tackle both hit the de, then he's gonna get forced outside of the play...depending on the block that the guard then gets on the backer, the rb can either bounce it outside, or cutback over the middle...
it gives the rb the advantage, because the other linebackers aren't going to have the best angle of attack as they have initial responsibilities with other gaps...
Good! It gives the RB more options. And man, it really, really helps a cut-back runner. Just think of how many cut-back runners have burned our defense. I would love to see us take advantage of this.
Quote:
ook how many times we saw pit run those delayed blitzes up the middle....(although that may have just been a talent problem) where the guard went to help the tackle, leaving the middle to the rb...
It's both a talent problem and a schematic problem. Obviously, we were hurting for talent, but getting Joe here is going to open up a lot of things for this offense. You just wait and see. We will be able to run more formations, more plays, more sets, etc because of Joe. Great pick by Savage!
But it is also a schematic problem. Because each guy has a predetermined man in man blocking, there are guys unaccounted for. The offensive linemen aren't working "together" as much as they would be in zone blocking. I am not saying they don't work together, but zone blocking relies on the guys working together. You have an "area" and you are moving cohesively w/at least one other linemen. You could be moving cohesively w/3 and 4 other guys, if a TE stays in.
And this is what I was talking about earlier when I responded to Cal. Let's face it, teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh give us fits because of all their movement after the snap. They are always angling, which confuses our guys and opens up lanes for outside blitzes by corners, OLBs, and safeties. It also kills us on that delayed middle blitz.
I'll get to a couple of others in a moment. Just wanted to say I appreciate all the good posts. Thanks.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
Quote:
Hey Vers, great thread first off. The one thing that I didn't see mentioned in an example like the one above is a non-delayed blitz. How would say the same C-RG-RT combination handle a stacked blitz on their side with let's say a linebacker and a safety (plus the DL)?
Damn......I had a reply typed out to you and tried putting someone else's quote in this reply too, and lost the entire thing. It's never as good the second time around, but here goes.
Good question. I know that zone blocking is a better option. Think about it.....man blocking relies on each offensive lineman to block a predetermined guy. When their side is overloaded, they are put in a bad situation because there are too many guys to block. Zone blocking, on the other hand, relies on guys blocking in an area, and they can block the guy that crosses their face first. The trick is knowing when to release him to the guy beside you and that is why reps are so important. I do want to say that you need to have a smart center who can make a call to adjust the blocking scheme and an intelligent QB who can change the play. He and the WR need to make a hot read and/or a sight adjustment that will take advantage of the overload. The key in terms of what we are talking about is that zone blocking allows the center and the QB more flexibility because the guys are already blocking an area.
Here's a tidbit for you guys. The Browns are working on calling two plays in the huddle. Think about how that will help, especially if we move to zone blocking. It could be sweet. Of course, we need intelligent players to pull this off and they better be in sync.
otowndawg: Another good question.
Quote:
I see from the explanation your givning for zone blocking where the running game can really excel, but just wondering if it has the same potential for the passing game?
Certainly. Again, your offensive linemen are limited in man blocking because they are blocking "their man." Zone blocking better allows you to work w/your teammates. You move together and you don't chase guys. You block in your area. Teams that run a lot of stunts, blitzes, or just slant or angle their defensive linemen will cause a man blocking scheme a ton of trouble. That same movement is not a problem for a zone blocking team.
As mentioned before, most teams employ both a zone and man blocking. And it is actually more common to use zone blocking in the passing game than the running game.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 180
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 180 |
Finally! A reason to make a regular visit back to the message board during the off-season doldrums. Thanks to all for staying on topic, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,550 |
Well i prefer man up drive blocking but just like any scheme you have to find football players that are made to run it. Find big old beer guzzling fat body's that can knock these defenders on their booty play after play and it just wears the defense down. The problem we have always ran into is that you have 3 zone blockers and 2 man blockers trying to run a drive blocking scheme. It doesnt work.
Right now we have 4 of our 5 projected starting 5 that are made for the zone blocking scheme and while Tuck is a better man up blocker physically, he still has enough mobility and talent to fill the RG role very well.
As someone mentioned above, the little comment made about players trying to keep their weight down and also the hiring of Steve Marshall lends me to believe we are definately heading in that direction and it will be a positive move for the type of players we currently have.
If we make this move look for a great deal more counter runs, naked bootlegs off the playaction. We can also expect longer runs. I cant help but remember Earl Little vs Jamal Lewis lol.Atleast this time Jamal is on our side and that is the type of mismatches that you are looking to get. Seal the front 7 and create that RB vs Safety matchup and that may be what Chud was refering to when he keeps repeating "trying to create mistmatches".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,618 |
LOL.............I knew you preferred man blocking, just by talking w/you before the draft. Mourg........I truthfully think you become a man blocking team when you have a team full of dummies. LOL Great post though. You make some interesting points that seem to be right on the money, especially the stuff about counters, bootlegs, and longer runs.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 396
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 396 |
I'll chime in here Versatile Dawg. Its so critical with the movement off the LOS in zone blocking.For instance if the defender remains inside,drive on until you are forced of him and then hit the second level.
All zone blocks start out as a inside out double team.Usually the inside or outside blocker will engage 1st and then the 2nd blocker will seal off the 'backer.
Getting movement on Level 1 is too important.In essence the blockers are playing off each other in a sense.
At the point of attack you have single zone blocks, Power zone, double zone, triple zone,power triple..it all depends how the LB's and DE's lineup.
thats my 2 cents from playing and coaching.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,224 |
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974 |
Quote:
So where would a fit Bentley fit in a zone blocking system? Having seen very little of the guy i'm curious as to if he fits the criteria of where we're going, either at C or G. Is this why we passed on the heavily touted guards in the last 2 drafts, as they were big powerful snot nosed road grader types?
Bently is a rare combination of mobility and strength. that's what made him such a good guard and center.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,224
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,224 |
Quote:
Wonder if we can have a separate forum for stuff like this. Where the threads can stay around and not get buried.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought about this myself. Maybe have a forum for 'Football 101' where we talk all about Xs and Os separate from news about the Browns or whatever because when training camp starts, threads like this may be get buried quickly. I guess we'll see.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to third that motion.
On the old Dawg Talk, some good football threads that had run their course were archived. This may be a good cause for that to happen with this one and any future others i reckon.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,806 |
Quote:
And have you ever yelled at your TV............how the hell did he come in there untouched!?
All the time. Especially in one of the Pittsburgh games last year. I noticed that when one of our o-lineman blocked one of their defenders we actually did a very good job of neutralizing that defender. Problem was, on most plays I saw one guy (and on many plays 2 guys) get to our Qb completely untouched.
Here is a question for you. So I am watching the game on TV or at the stadium, what can I key on that will tell me that we are running a zone blocking scheme on a play vs man up?
And we all love these football 101 threads.I'll second or forth the notion of a separate forum. These cool threads I email the link to some friends who are football fans but don't frequent this forum.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Coach Talk: Zone Blocking
|
|
![[Linked Image from fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net]](https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/276870_6711658857_1403067853_q.jpg)
Good job. 