DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Presidential Election Campaigns 2016 part 4

Well you can spin this any way you choose. But let's look at the facts of how this works.

Corporation; If you don't pay up by giving me huge tax cuts to stay, I'm closing my business.

Politician; Okay we'll pay you off to stay.

So in no way does that look like bribery to you? Let's look at the next scenario....

Corporation; We're looking to set up a new location for our business. Whoever bids the highest in giving us tax breaks, wins.

Politicians; Scramble to give the business the most tax breaks possible in a bidding war to land a deal.

Now you don't see that this is legitimized bribery by putting a name on it called "tax abatements". But in essence that's exactly what it is.

Does a community gain some jobs? Yes they do. But they pay off corporations to get those jobs. Communities sign off on millions upon millions, sometimes even billions to line a companies pockets so that the burden lays at the feet of their workers while the business lines its pockets.

You seem fine with all of the tax revenue generated by the new workers while feeling the company somehow should be exempt from the exact same standard.

And you can post all of the articles you wish. But Jeep threatened to move and Toledo paid up to keep them. Anything beyond that is hyperbole at its finest.

Ok.

you forgot something bro.

those two scenario's you posted....well those two actually happen at the same time.

from what i'm reading, they want a tax break to stay in the location, then they want a completely different tax break if they want to invest in a new facility, while at the same time, having the city/state front the money for land/clearing and such.

that's how a lot of these corporations ends up paying around/at zero percent in taxes.

a tax break for the tax break, if you will.

I think it comes down to where would you rather your money comes from. If you get in the form of business taxes then you get your money, that's all. But if you get it in the form of good paying jobs that enrich families by having money to spend (as well as pay their taxes) you get it in additional sales tax and a demand for additional goods which support other jobs and which can create even more jobs.

Amazing!!!! Someone gets it!

Thank you.

I don't understand why they shouldn't come from all of the above rather than picking and choosing.

If you are of the opinion that our government needs more and more and more and more and more money, then I see your point, then you take it from everybody all the time... as much as you can get.

I believe you fully understand that my point is that people seem fine with helping business become exempt from paying a lot of taxes but have no such feelings towards the workers of that business.

It's a double standard that puts the tax burden upon only the workers.

Then those same people complain about the tax rates while believing businesses are fine being given deals not to pay their fair share. It's odd how that works.

That's politics in a nutshell. We claim we want certain policies because we believe they will benefit others. When in reality we want changes that benefit our own selfish myopic needs.

That's a good way of saying it, really.

Minor, short term tax abatements. In the case of Jeep, in Toledo, spending (the city) 6 million in tax money brought in how much? (and I would bet the city spent more than 6 million. Let's say it was double: $12 million)

Who did it benefit?

The city.

The 5500 or so workers. You can do the math on this, but let's say the average worker makes $40,000 at jeep. That's $220 million in payroll, if my math is correct. If the city has even a 1% payroll tax, that's $2.2 million the city receives each year. Which, without the city spending the assumed $12 million, they wouldn't get.


Payroll taxes alone, to the city by the employees of jeep would pay for itself in less than 6 years.

Add in all the construction costs that jeep paid for, all the jobs, the next $700 million jeep is investing in expanding. Sounds like a good deal.

But wait, we would have to take into account the taxes Jeep got abated. What that amount is, I don't have a clue, and haven't been able to find.

And let's face it, a company like CFA isn't dumping $700 million, plus, into a facility if they plan to be there less than a couple decades.

Now, factor in 5500 or so employees that have good wages, and the spending they do. Buying homes, going out to eat, buying groceries, paying cable bills, electric, going to movies, buying Jeeps, buying gas, etc. and all the people that are employed by the businesses I just mentioned, as well as many more.

I'd say it was a damn good move by Carty and the administration to "spend" tax payer money on keeping Jeep.

$12 million (total guess) in order to, at a minimum, get back almost 20% a year? Just in payroll taxes?



Heck, lets say the city of Toledo ended up spending out of their pockets $50 million. That's still just over a 4% return. In payroll taxes alone.




Not going to recalculate. The city's income tax rate is 2.25%. http://www.tax-rates.org/ohio/toledo-income-tax

Yes, arch, the ripple effect of that is almost impossible to calculate. We are involved with the county where Volvo is building a plant near Charleston,SC... Boeing just built a massive operation at the airport there.. so this little county, which had 3 school renovations on it's schedule for the next 5 years, now anticipates needing to build 2 new schools, which will create construction jobs as well as teaching jobs.. new shopping centers, new parks, road widening, residential development, barber shops, restaurants.. the list of economic benefits to giving those companies huge tax incentives are staggering...

Assange says WikiLeaks to release 'significant' Clinton campaign data


https://www.yahoo.com/news/assange-says-...-023226471.html

Hope it's some good stuff

Jeb Bush went after Trump hard and accused him of flip flopping and speaking like the politicians he went after during the primaries.

Is that akin to hillary, 8 years ago, attacking Obama about his money trail?

It's akin to any politician going after any other politician... ever.

Yup.

The guy proclaimed as not being a politician is acting like a politician.

Yet moderates said they wouldn't vote for him, in part, because he wasn't "Presidential" enough..

So we have a country where we distrust and dislike the majority of our politicians, especially the "career politicians"... and everybody with money and power, who has had dealings within political circles, is by default a politician... but we can't elect somebody who doesn't think and act like a politician should... and to achieve higher office one must have a political track record at lower levels or they are inexperienced... We also want somebody who is open minded when it comes to considering new ideas but who has never really changed their opinion on things or they are a flip flopper... We want somebody who has had some measure of financial success as a track record but not somebody who has so much money that he/she is out of touch with ordinary people... We want somebody who will tell it like it is and give us their honest opinion without "political speak" but not somebody who might say something that offends anybody... We want somebody who can take us back to the way things were in the glory days of our country, but only on some topics, on other topics we must keep moving forward..

Yea, it shouldn't be too hard to find that person...

It's what I said before, people want what's best for them. DC you're probably a good guy, but I sincerely doubt you care what's going on at a factory in Montana. It sounds nice to say that, but that's being politically correct. The thing people get bashed to hell for trying to be.

41 Years in the employment/Human Resource/recruiting field tells me that that just isn't the case. What I mean is that my experience tells me that it's just not a "hard and fast" Rule.

HS Grad or even a GED still hold weight for almost all factory positions. Very hard to even get a shot without one of those.

Skilled trades don't get AS degrees, but they may, as it's always been, have gotten training at a trade school and then an apprentice program.

If you wanna be an accountant or engineer etc, yup, you won't get a lot of shots at those jobs unless you have a 4 year degree. You may get a shot at those with a 2 year AS degree, but usually, they demand that you continue your education and in most cases, they'll pay for it. (or some portion of it

I have business in 30 or so states. It's pretty much the same everywhere.

Again, this is based solely on my experience.

I wish Volvo would hurry up so we can end this backlog of new truck orders

I looked up employment at the Toledo plant, and they employ about 2700 workers. Let's say that they each make $50,000. (which is probably a decent average) Toledo's tax rate is 2.25%.

2700 X $50,000 = $135 million in wages, which brings in roughly $3 million/year in city income taxes.

Is it ideal? No. Is it worthwhile? Yep. (especially when Chrysler spent over $200 million on updating that plant in 2008)

Then consider the net millions from those wages being spent in the community which supports a multitude of other jobs and causes enough demand to create additional jobs, which creates additional taxes, additional support, additional demand and additional jobs.

Or, don't offer the corporate tax breaks, don't get the industry influx and miss out on those jobs and all the benefits that entails.

obviously you havent been paying attention to what i'm saying.

i'm not complaining about the factory in toledo. i consider it to be an investment as far as what the city did.i think its smart and really a great thing.

what i'm saying is that why is it ok to invest in that, but not ok to invest in education?

we have how many jobs available? and our problem is people aren't qualified for these jobs, correct?

so if Tennessee is investing into their population for free 2 year college, which leads to only having to pay for 2 years for a 4 year degree.

they become qualified to take these high demand jobs, how much money in wages will that be compared to the investment they made?

that's my argument. Arch is busy slamming the idea of investing into our own citizens, but perfectly ok with investing into a business.

so, after all that, if people are gonna complain about investing into our actual people, then the case can certainly be made that what toledo did is nothing more than offering a bribe.

as i said before, it's an investment if it's something you agree with. it's a waste of tax payer money if it's something you don't...

My problem is you guys think tax breaks is the end all be all. If that was the case, then we should be seeing a mass migration of companies not only flocking to Toledo, but to states like Kansas and Louisiana.

But we aren't. So obviously something other than tax breaks are in play.

No, I don't have the time, knowledge, or desire to care about every single factory everywhere.. but I do care from a more global level. Do I care if a factory in Montana moves to Tennessee because it believes it is in the companies best interest? No, not really. You feel bad for the town that grew up around that factory in Montana while at the same time feeling good for the people in the town it is going.... Do I care if they move it to India? Yes, I do.

Well, one thing that comes to mind is that there is an almost immediate payoff from the investments in industries.

People start working immediately. Jobs are protected, and incomes are earned. Taxes are brought in immediately .... and maybe these only start with those doing building and such, but the city (or other municipality) can sometimes see the return of their investment in the form of either additional taxes, or maintaining their tax base, almost immediately.

Education is important, but it is not a cure all. We have thousands and thousands of educated unemployed people. What we lack are skilled tradespeople. Young people seem to look down on occupations like welders, plumbers, electricians, and so on. I have a cousin who is a skilled welder, who makes over $100K per year. He has been at it for a while, and has never been laid off. Oh, and many times the unions will actually pay for an apprenticeship for a person interested in learning such a trade.

I think that we already made a pretty huge investment in education, and education is getting worse and is frequently less useful for those attending college. I don't have a problem with additional investment, as long as there is a solid plan that demonstrates why the additional money will actually help those students it is designed to help.

We have given every young person in the US the right to obtain student loans. What has that done? Well, it has buried many young people under student debt, and it has also dramatically increased the cost of higher education.

As far as local education, in the Youngstown area, the school district (Youngstown City Schools) that has some of the newest building, the latest technology, and the highest cost per student in classroom instruction, is actually the worst in actual performance. Dumping money into schools without a plan simply makes for more expensive, failing schools.

One thing I would like to see is for all able bodied people who are receiving welfare to be required to attend basic education classes. In my previous job, knew a lot of people who had children, but who had no ability to help those children learn at home. I would like to see people receive that basic education so they can help their kids learn at home, especially early on in their children's lives. That is an expense I would happily support, and which is a program that could be implemented at a reasonable price.

Maybe we could also have classes for children ages 3-4, and their parent(s) could attend with them, where the kids could learn how to learn, and where their parents could learn how to help their children learn.

One thing, however, that I am opposed to, is just maintaining the same system that has failed, and just throwing more money into that deep, dark hole.

Aren't you describing the instant gratification most on the right describe as a bad thing? The "now impact" rather than a long range education investment?

And to be honest with you, a vast amount of businesses either leave as soon as those incentives expire, or use the threat of it to get yet another tax abatement. Many instances do not turn out as some that have been described.

http://www.ibj.com/articles/57470-clawbacks-proposed-for-companies-that-flee-indiana

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-05-03/news/0305030140_1_maytag-incentives-illinois

http://www.economicsofplace.com/2012/12/...batement-abuse/

I could go on, but this shows that tax abatement for business isn't quite as rosy as some wish to make it seem. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. As usual, there's no one size fits all.

Tennessee is smart. They know that manufacturing isn't providing the wages and opportunity for upward movement that it used to. They know the future of good jobs both from the aspect of attracting them as well as providing a much greater future for its citizens requires an investment in education.

They're not as short sighted as many states.

See, if anybody on the left suggested what you're saying they'd be labeled a socialist. I'd be all for making those dependent on welfare to earn a GED.

I don't think you do and that's my point. You get your stuff cheaper because of it. If God forbid this country went to hell, your engineering background would be desirable anywhere in the entire world. You don't have to say it out loud, but you're set for life based on your experience and intelligence.

If this country, as you so eloquently spoke, "goes to hell", his engineering degree won't matter. Here, anyway. Who will be building? Who will hire him to engineer buildings (other than the government).

Trump?

One of the nice perks of globalization is that he'd be able to work in different countries if he had to.

White college voters not voting for Trump?

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trum...lege-graduates/

I know why the schools are failing. It's the new math the accountants have been taught to use in schools. You remember when 1+1 = 2 Well now it's

1+1 added to 64 pickup sticks mixed with 82 pounds of cement and buried under 63 CM of dirt per square inch while traveling 6 billion kilometers per hour while bouncing around in a supercollider at warp 10 while Scotty screams "I'm giving her all that she's got Captain" = 6.4 quadrillion.

Call me a loon but that's pretty much how I do math in my head. It's a simple trick my grand-dad taught me when I was about 8 years old.

LOON

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...s-own-book.html



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-campaign-rent_us_57bba424e4b03d51368a82b9

So we have a crooked politician vs. a crooked buisnessman.

Common core is absolutely beautiful! I hate how it's used to profit off of our kids with awful tests; these assessments fail to measure how students learn in a variety of ways.

Many complain about how "they're learning it differently!!!!", but truly this is HOW it should be done. We're told to teach in a myriad of ways to reach ALL learners. I love how common core ideas with Math can break it all down.

There's also the "why not just learn it how I did? Memorization worked the best." Rote memorization gives just a basic understanding, and such techniques led to our lack of critical thinking.

Man....lol yo I thought the campaign was suppose to be way better after that Trump speech?



Ex-wife says Trump campaign CEO made anti-Semitic remarks

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ex-wife-says-trump-campaign-ceo-made-anti-064622836--election.html

LOS ANGELES (AP) — An ex-wife of Donald Trump's new campaign CEO, Stephen Bannon, said Bannon made anti-Semitic remarks when the two battled over sending their daughters to private school nearly a decade ago, according to court papers reviewed Friday by The Associated Press.
That revelation came a day after reports emerged that domestic violence charges were filed 20 years ago against Bannon following an altercation with his then-wife, Mary Louise Piccard.

In a sworn court declaration following their divorce, Piccard said her ex-husband had objected to sending their twin daughters to an elite Los Angeles academy because he "didn't want the girls going to school with Jews."
"He said he doesn't like Jews and that he doesn't like the way they raise their kids to be 'whiney brats,'" Piccard said in a 2007 court filing.
Bannon, the former head of Breitbart News, took the helm of Trump's campaign last week in yet another leadership shake-up. The campaign has been plagued by negative stories about staffers, including charges lodged against his former campaign manager following an altercation with a reporter, and questions about his former campaign chairman's links with Russian interests.
Alexandra Preate, a spokeswoman for Bannon, denied Friday night that he made anti-Semitic remarks about the private school. "He never said that," Preate said, adding that Bannon was proud to send his daughters to the school.
Trump has previously been criticized for invoking anti-Semitic stereotypes, including tweeting out an anti-Hillary Clinton image that included a Star of David atop a pile of money.
He also raised eyebrows when he spoke in front of the Republican Jewish Coalition and declared, "I'm a negotiator like you folks were negotiators."
Clinton has tried in recent days to highlight Trump's popularity with white nationalist and supremacist groups. She delivered a speech Thursday that linked him with the "alt-right" movement, which is often associated with efforts on the far right to preserve "white identity," oppose multiculturalism and defend "Western values."
Trump has pushed back, defending himself and his supporters, and labeling Clinton "a bigot" for supporting policies he argues have ravaged minority communities.
Trump has noted that his daughter, Ivanka, would soon be having another Jewish child. Ivanka Trump converted to Orthodox Judaism when she married Jared Kushner, a young real estate developer who has become a driving force in his father-in-law's campaign.
The court filing was among several documents related to Bannon and Picard's voluminous divorce case, filed in 1997, which was revisited several times as Piccard sought support for tuition and other expenses. The documents reviewed by the AP were part of a request for Bannon to pay $25,000 in legal fees and to cover the $64,000 in tuition it cost to send both girls to The Archer School for Girls for the 2007-08 school year.
Bannon's remarks about Jews followed other comments that caught Piccard's attention when they were visiting private schools in 2000.
At one school, she said, he asked the director why there were so many Hanukkah books in the library. At another school, he asked Piccard if it bothered her that the school used to be in a temple.
"I said, 'No,' and asked why he asked," Piccard said. "He did not respond."
Piccard said Bannon wanted the girls to attend a Catholic school.
In 2007, when the girls were accepted at Archer, he told Piccard he objected because of the number of Jews in attendance.
Piccard filed for divorce in January 1997, just over a year after she told police Bannon roughed her up on New Year's Day 1996 following a spat over money, in which she spit on him.
A police report obtained by the AP said he grabbed her wrist and "grabbed at" her neck. When she tried to call 911, she told police that Bannon grabbed the phone and threw it across the room. An officer who responded reported seeing red marks on her wrist and neck.
Bannon was charged in 1996 with misdemeanor witness intimidation, domestic violence with traumatic injury and battery, according to a Santa Monica, California, police report. The charges were dropped after his estranged wife didn't show up at trial, according to court records.
Piccard said in her declaration that she skipped the trial after Bannon and his lawyer arranged for her to leave town. She said Bannon had told her the lawyer would make her look like the guilty party if she testified and the attorney told her she'd be broke if Bannon went to jail.
The Trump campaign declined to comment on the abuse charges. But Preate said police never interviewed Bannon. She added that Bannon has a great relationship with his ex-wife and kids.
___
Colvin reported from Washington.

Agreed.

Make the numbers even or something simplified in our heads.