DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Election Thread #12: The Final Countdown

You would think that you'd be able to point to something she did in that area of the world that worked out well, instead of just defending all the things that went badly.

Talk is cheap. Hillary and Obama had 8 years to arm the Kurds and what did they do? Nada!

Also if Hill and Obama had not gutted Iraq of American troops, we would not be adding them back constantly and ISIS would have never have had a single stronghold.

I watched part of the relay of the debate, for some dumb reason. The thing that really bothered me was Hillary grinning and smirking when ever Trump brought up things like the email scandal. Benghazi, her enabling of Bill's cheating, and the way she treated the women who he abused .....

There is a time to smile, and project confidence, and there is a time to be serious and address such things in a serious matter.

I thought that Trump, overall, did a better job on tone than he did in the 1st debate, and he was much, much more well prepared.

The moderators challenged Trump on a few things, but did not do so with Hillary.

In the end, though, I still cannot vote for either one of these clowns.

Your right it's sickening.

Now how much worse it for Hillary to blame the other women that it has been done to?

We quite probably lose a major ally in Turkey if we go arming the Kurds.

The initial negotiations of the Iran deal.

Literally a major issue that kept Iran from developing nukes.

I give you the answers all the time.

But you not liking the answers isn't the same as me not giving you one.

What's deflecting? We can't talk about two simultaneous topics at once? We can't talk about how it's now been OK to admit you sexually assault women as long as you say it to another "man"?

I'm fine with talking about both of their Syria strategies. I'm not sure that Trump supporting Russia in Syria is a good idea. I actually really have to wonder about Trump and Russia. They are former business partners.

Is that the same Turkey that was buying and allowing ISIS to ship oil through their country?

Luckily for us Russia shut that crap down.

First off, the already have some of our weapons, as we share a base there protected by Kurdish forces in Erbil in northern Iraq.

This isn't trying to be disrespectful, but imma need you and YTown to read up. Some of your statements are off.

again, false.

im starting to see why everybody avoided the foreign policy thread i started.

you guys are sounding like Gary Johnson. that isn't a good thing.

MEOW

its way too early to start drinking bro. at least wait til 11:30

Well, the Washington Post fact checker seems to disagree with you. Anyway, I have to get to the doctor.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...is-considering/

As she mentioned in the first debate, Hillary Clinton said she supports arming the Kurds — something the Obama administration is considering as a way of starting on a path to defeating the Islamic State militants before his term ends.

The administration is exploring whether to provide Kurdish fighters with small arms and ammunition, not heavy equipment like anti-tank or anti-aircraft weapons.

The Kurds are considered the most effective fighters against the Islamic State. But they also are viewed with great suspicion by Turkey, which is a key U.S. ally that provides a base for planes flying to conduct airstrikes against terrorist targets inside Syria. Turkey fears the Kurds will carve out their own autonomous region, giving ideas to the Kurdish minority inside Turkey.

About 300 U.S. special ops troops are already on the ground in Syria helping train and give advice to the Kurdish fighters in Syria. Providing them with arms for the first time could heighten tensions with Turkey even as it already is bristling over the U.S. residency of Muhammed Fethullah Gülen, a Turkish preacher who Ankara considers the guiding force behind an attempted coup this summer.

The Kurds are supposed to receive a share of U.S.-supplied weapons to Iraq, but they have gotten “not a single bullet,” Barzani said. Meanwhile, Islamic State fighters have seized weapons worth hundreds of millions of dollars from retreating Iraqi soldiers.

“This is the truth that the world should know,” he said. “So we are left out to fight all these terrorists, all these problems on our own.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ira...d6ed_story.html

I think we now know who needs to keep up on his reading.

wow, your link didn't argue against my point.

i've said before months ago that Turks and Kurds don't get along.

but no where did i say, nor does your OWN link say, that supporting the kurds will end our relationship with Turkey, as you suggested.

reading is fundamental.

Turkey benefits from NATO and the US having bases and nuclear missles parked in their country.

they're not gonna give that up just because we're cool with the Kurds.

again, you're sounding like Gary Johnson.

The US military has dropped weapons, ammunition and medical aid to Kurdish forces defending Kobani against Islamic State (Isis) militants, while Turkey has said it will allow Iraqi Kurdish fighters to reinforce the Syrian border town.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o...-air-drops-arms

YTown and 40, if you guys really wanna go here, let's go here.

i've been ITCHING for this debate. please oh please, let's do this.

this was in 2014.

please please please, let's get it.

Your memory is worse than mine man.

I was referring to your mention of Gary Johnson and the video I sent you.

The fly landing on Hillary tripped me out a bit:

lol yea i forgot about that video.

Some fact checking.. a few surprises for me in there.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/second-presi...ton-university/

Fact-checking the second presidential debate

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Last Updated Oct 9, 2016 11:05 PM EDT

11:05 p.m. Donald Trump claims that Russia and Syria are fighting against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).

TRUMP STATEMENT: “I don’t like [censored] bunch of chemical weapons moving around or being utilized.”

Hillary Clinton served as secretary of State until 2013.

--CBS News’ Carrie Rabin

10:42 p.m. Donald Trump says U.S. Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens sent hundreds of requests for help in Benghazi before the 2012 attacks.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “Ambassador Stevens sent 600 requests for help.”

FACT CHECK: Partly true.

This is not the first time Trump has used that 600 number, which conflates “requests” for help and “concerns.” The figure comes from a chart created by the House Select Committee on Benghazi, which adds all requests and concerns from Libya to the State Department. That combined figure does come close to 600.

--CBS News’ Kate Rydell

10:31 p.m. Donald Trump claims that Clinton’s 2008 campaign sent photos around with Obama in “certain garb.”

TRUMP STATEMENT: “You really owe [Mr. Obama] an apology. You’re the one that sent the pictures around your campaign, sent the pictures around with President Obama in a certain garb ... That was long before I was ever involved.”

FACT CHECK: Unclear.

In 2008, then-Obama campaign manager David Plouffe accused Hillary Clinton’s campaign of sharing a photo of the president in African dress. Politico noted that the photo in question showed Mr. Obama in the dress of a Somali elder during a 2006 visit to northeastern Kenya. Plouffe accused her campaign of circulating the photo in “the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we’ve seen from either party in this election.”

Clinton’s campaign did not deny sending the photos and responded by calling the issue “nothing more than an obvious and transparent attempt to distract from the serious issues confronting our country. However, Clinton told MSNBC at the time that “so far as I know” it didn’t come from her campaign.

--CBS News’ Kate Rydell

10:18 p.m. Donald Trump claims drugs are “pouring” through the U.S.-Mexico border, that the Immigration and Customs Enforcement endorsed him, and that Hillary Clinton wants “amnesty for everybody.”

TRUMP STATEMENT: “We are also letting drugs pour through our southern border at a record clip. At a record clip…and it shouldn’t be allowed to happen. ICE just endorsed me. They have never endorsed a presidential candidate. The border patrol agents 16,500 just recently endorsed me and they endorsed me because I understand the border. She doesn’t. She wants amnesty for everybody.”

FACT CHECK: Partially true, partially false.

It is true that there has been an increases in heroin flowing across the southern border. According to the Congressional Research Service, Mexican transnational criminal organizations have increased their share of the U.S. drug market, particularly with respect to heroin, and heroin seizures in the Southwest border region more than doubled from 2010 to 2015.

It is not true that Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a federal agency, endorsed Trump. That would be a violation of the Hatch Act, which limits the involvement of executive branch employees in election and partisan political activity. The union for border patrol agents, which is a separate entity, did endorse Trump.

It is not true that Clinton supports “amnesty for everybody,” but she does want to make it easier for people who came here illegally to stay by passing legislation with a path to citizenship. If that does not work, she has promised to “enact a simple system for those with sympathetic cases...to make their case and be eligible for deferred action.” She has said that she would focus on deporting violent criminals.

--CBS News’ Rebecca Kaplan

10:13 p.m. Donald Trump says “tens of thousands” of people from Syria are coming to the U.S.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “We are going to areas like Syria, where they’re coming in by the tens of thousands.”

FACT CHECK: False.

The State Department says about 12,500 Syrian refugees will be admitted this year. Before that, 2,234 came to the United States between Oct. 2010 and Nov 2015. This is not tens of thousands.

--CBS News’ Carrie Rabin

10:11 p.m. Donald Trump says he was against the war in Iraq, and that suggestions he was not have been debunked.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “I was against the war in Iraq,” Trump said, as he did in the first debate with Clinton. “It has not been debunked.”

FACT CHECK: False and false.

Donald Trump supported the invasion of Iraq. Howard Stern interviewed Donald Trump on Sept. 11, 2002, noted BuzzFeed, and he asked Trump, “Are you for invading Iraq?” Trump responded, “Yeah, I guess so.”

CBS News and other news outlets have, on multiple occasions, fact-checked Trump’s claims that he opposed the war and found them to be false.

--CBS News’ Rebecca Kaplan

10:10 p.m. Hillary Clinton claims that Donald Trump’s rhetoric is helping jihadists recruit new members.

CLINTON STATEMENT: “You can look at the propaganda on a lot of the terrorists’ sites and what Donald Trump says about Muslims is used to recruit fighters.”

FACT CHECK: True. Clips of Donald Trump talking about Muslims has appeared in jihadist propaganda. According to the Washington Post, a propaganda video from the al Qaeda affiliate al-Shabab does include footage of Trump talking last year about his plan to bar Muslims from entering the U.S.

--CBS News’ Allyson Ross-Taylor

10:06 p.m. Donald Trump claims that “many people” saw bombs at the apartment of the San Bernardino shooters.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “We have to be sure that Muslims come in and report when they see something going on. When they see hatred going on, they have to report it. As an example: San Bernardino, many people saw the bombs all over the apartment of the two people that killed 14 and wounded many, many people.”

FACT CHECK: False. To this day, no one has said they’ve seen bombs in the apartment of the San Bernardino shooters’ apartment. An unidentified man noted that he saw suspicious activity surrounding their apartment, but made no mention of weapons or anything actionable. As the man told CBS’ Los Angeles affiliate, “We noticed, one day like six Middle Eastern guys walk by across the street, kind of dressed nice, and they would walk around and go over to state street and eat there, because I saw them eating there when I went to the paint store, and we sat around thinking what’re those guys doing in this neighborhood?”

--CBS News’ DJ Judd and Allyson Ross-Taylor

10:03 p.m. Donald Trump says Hillary Clinton will not say the phrase “radical Islam.”

TRUMP STATEMENT: “When there’s a problem, you have to state what the problem is or at least say the name. She won’t say the name and President Obama won’t say the name.”

FACT CHECK: False. Clinton used the term in June during an interview on NBC News’ “Today Show.” She appeared on the program on June 13, following the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando.

“To me, radical jihadism, radical Islamism, I think they mean the same thing,” Clinton said. “I’m happy to say either. But that’s not the point.”

--CBS News’ Ellee Watson

10:02 p.m. Hillary Clinton claims there is no evidence anyone hacked her private email server.

CLINTON STATEMENT: “After a yearlong investigation there is no evidence that anyone hacked the server I was using. And there is no evidence that anyone can point to at all – anyone that says otherwise has no basis that any classified material ended up in the wrong hands. I take classified material very seriously…and always have.”

FACT CHECK: Mostly true, but with a caveat: though there’s no evidence Clinton’s server was accessed, as FBI Director James Comey noted, there would be little evidence if they had. Comey also notes there is evidence that a number of people that Clinton was in correspondence with did have their emails hacked.

On July 5, Comey said, “With respect to potential computer intrusion by hostile actors, we did not find direct evidence that Secretary Clinton’s personal email domain in its various configuration since 2009 was hacked successfully.”

Still, Comey said there may not necessarily be “direct evidence,” were the server to have been hacked. “We do assess that hostile actors gained access to the private commercial email accounts of people with whom Secretary Clinton was in regular contact from her personal account. We also assess that Secretary Clinton’s use of a personal domain was both known by a large number of people and readily apparent.”

--CBS News’ DJ Judd

9:55 p.m. Donald Trump says Hillary Clinton deleted 33,000 emails after receiving a subpoena from Congress.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “She said the 33,000 emails had to do with her daughter’s wedding, number one, and a yoga class. Maybe we’ll give three or three or four or five, or something. 33,000 emails deleted. And now she’s saying there wasn’t anything wrong. And more importantly that was after getting a subpoena, that wasn’t before, that was after she got it from the United States Congress.”

FACT CHECK: Mostly true.

Clinton gave 30,490 work-related emails to the State Department in December 2014 and deleted an additional 31,830 she said were personal emails (she did, indeed, say these were related to “planning Chelsea’s wedding or my mother’s funeral arrangements, condolence notes to friends as well as yoga routines, family vacations, the other things you typically find in inboxes”).

The FBI later found 14,900 emails that Clinton had not handed over among the deleted files. The FBI said that Clinton’s emails were deleted sometime between March 25 and 31, 2015, which was after Clinton was subpoenaed by the House of Representatives on March 4, 2015.

--CBS News’ Rebecca Kaplan

9:50 p.m. Donald Trump claims that Bill Clinton was impeached, lost his law license and had to pay Paula Jones $850,000.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “What President Clinton did, he was Impeached, he lost his license to practice law, he had to pay an $850,000 fine to one of the women, Paula Jones, who’s also here tonight.”

FACT CHECK: Mostly true. Bill Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives in 1998 on perjury and obstruction of justice charges stemming from his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky and his testimony about it in the course of a sexual harassment lawsuit filed by Paula Jones.

Clinton resigned from the Arkansas bar in 2001 for five years as part of an agreement with the special prosecutor in the Lewinsky case. He was not permanently disbarred, and was eligible to reinstate his law license.

Clinton did pay Paula Jones $850,000 to settle the case.

--CBS News’ Rebecca Kaplan

9:49 p.m. Donald Trump claims his rival Hillary Clinton used an expensive process to delete the emails from her private server.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “You get a subpoena and after getting the subpoena you delete 33,000 emails and then you acid wash them. Or bleach them, as you would say -- a very expensive process.”

FACT CHECK: Trump is correct that Clinton used a computer program called “BleachBit” to delete thousands of her emails. But the program can be downloaded online for free and it does not use chemicals. A footnote on an FBI investigation document noted that BleachBit is “open source software that allows users to ‘shred’ files, clear Internet history, delete system and temporary files and wipe free space on a hard drive.”

--CBS News’ Carrie Rabin

9:46 p.m. Donald Trump claims that the Affordable Care Act is causing skyrocketing health insurance costs.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “When I watch what’s happening some horrible things like Obamacare where your health insurance, your health care is going up by numbers that are astronomical. Sixty-eight percent, 59 percent, 71 percent.”

FACT CHECK: Partly true. Premiums are going up, but Trump is greatly exaggerating how much of a cost increase any given insurance plan has undergone. Nationally, premiums on average have increased from 4.4 percent to 13 percent, according to Politifact’s reported estimates. Additionally, the Kaiser Foundation reported an average increase of 10 percent for their 2016-2017 insurance plans.

--CBS News’ Kate Rydell

9:45 p.m. Donald Trump claims Hillary Clinton represented a man who raped a 12-year-old girl, and laughed about the case.

TRUMP STATEMENT: Bill Clinton was abusive to women, Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously. Four of them are here tonight: one of the women, who is a wonderful woman at 12 years old was raped at 12, her client she represented got him off and she’s seen laughing on two separate occasions laughing at the girl who was raped, Kathy Shelton.

FACT CHECK: Partly true. Clinton did represent a man accused of raping a 12-year-old girl. The charges against the man were ultimately reduced in a plea agreement. There is an audio record (so she is not seen) of Clinton laughing in a conversation about the case, though she was laughing not at the girl, but at another aspect of the case.

But the Washington Post noted that in her autobiography, “Living History,” Clinton wrote that she told the prosecutor in the case, “I really don’t feel comfortable taking on such a client, but [the prosecutor] gently reminded me that I couldn’t very well refuse the judge’s request.” Ultimately, the prosecution’s case against the man fell apart for other reasons, the Post notes, including investigators’ mishandling of evidence.

--CBS News’ Allyson Ross Taylor

9:31 p.m. Donald Trump says the trade deficit was almost $800 billion in 2015.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “Last year, we had an almost $800 billion trade deficit.”

FACT CHECK: True. In 2015, the US had a negative $762.565 billion balance of payments, according to the Census Bureau, though it’s worth noting that the total deficit, which factors in both goods and services, is only negative $500.361 billion.

--CBS News’ DJ Judd

9:24 p.m. Donald Trump claims that the Iran nuclear deal meant the United States paid Iran $150 billion.

TRUMP STATEMENT: “When I look at the Iran deal and how bad it is for us, it’s a one-sided transaction where we’re giving back $150 billion dollars to a terrorist state.”

FACT CHECK: False. The money that Iran is able to access under the nuclear deal was Iranian currency that was frozen through various sanctions over the years. Additionally, Politifact cites experts as saying that the frozen Iranian assets are estimated at closer to $100 billion; $150 billion is a very high estimate.

The U.S. in return was able to compel Iran to take several steps that will slow its ability to produce a nuclear weapon: They must to destroy stockpiles of enriched uranium, slow plutonium production, dismantle a plutonium reactor, and give international nuclear inspectors access to its facilities, among other things.

Listen to the tape closely. Pay attention to when the tape jumps to another part of the conversation (the tape was selectively edited, and I'm going to guess not in Trump's favor). Without listening to it again, he makes the claim that he tried to get with a married woman and then it jumps to another part of the conversation where he talks in generalities about what you can do as a star.

*note I am not defending Trump's comments, they are bad regardless, just providing some background and context and noting that the idea that he confessed to some nasty crimes is just not true.*

That's it? That is her 'accomplishment'?

What were things like in Syria, Iraq, and Libya back in 2009, when Hillary Clinton took over as Secretary of State? What is the situation now?

I think bouncing out of Iraq was certainly the best thing to do.

this country is tired of war. also, the Iraqi's didn't want us there. they wasn't gonna renegotiate a deal anyway. even republicans have admitted that. I dunno how you could possibly put Iraq on Hillary.

i already stated if Hillary was allowed to go after Assad, half these problems might not even exist.

and you just proved you blatantly ignored my post when i already said libya was a mistake.

at this point you're reading and comprehending what you want. you're aren't actually interested in seeing Hillary in any other light than the dark one you've already set your mind to.

i dont even know why i bother with you have the time.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/...eed4_story.html

Go to the source of the video. I see that Roger Stone, noted Clinton basher and Trump surrogate thinks that the tape is edited too. Which probably means it's not.

So Trump didn't brag about sexually assaulting a woman? That's what you're telling me when you say he didn't 'confess'.

Mike Pence reportedly pulled out of a Donald Trump fundraiser scheduled for Monday

http://theweek.com/speedreads/654236/mik...cheduled-monday

Republican vice presidential candidate Mike Pence has reportedly canceled plans to attend a fundraiser scheduled in New Jersey on Monday, further stoking rumors about turmoil brewing between Pence and Donald Trump. News of the cancelation was first reported Sunday night, as Trump duked it out with Hillary Clinton in the second presidential debate and admitted he and Pence disagreed with regards to Syria.

No explanation was offered for Pence's change of plans. However, the cancelation came a day after Pence released a statement saying he was "offended" by Trump's remarks about seducing women, made in a video from 2005 that was released Friday. "I do not condone his remarks and cannot defend them," Pence said Saturday.

After that statement, Pence was quick to assure donors he would not be dumping Trump, and Pence had this to say after the debate wrapped up:

Follow
Mike Pence ✔ @mike_pence
Congrats to my running mate @realDonaldTrump on a big debate win! Proud to stand with you as we #MAGA.
10:45 PM - 9 Oct 2016
35,958 35,958 Retweets 90,652 90,652 likes
Pence is also scheduled to attend two events in North Carolina on Monday. Trump's campaign did not immediately respond to NJ Advance Media on whether Pence will be going to those events. Becca Stanek

You might as well have some fun with these discussions. We're not going to change each others' minds on this. We're not going to flip anybody's vote from Hillary to Trump or vice versa. At best, there might be a few people who read these threads that could flip to or from a third party, or motivate someone to vote (or, ahem, discourage them from doing so.)

In other words, there's a whole lot of effort going into this for not a whole lot of results. Don't take things personally and don't get upset about it. Sometimes I get frustrated arguing with you or CHS or whoever and then I realize that it's just an online discussion. It can only bother you if you let it bother you.

True.

Trump still sucks though.

I don't think anybody has really ever said Trump doesn't suck around here bro. We know he does.

As does Hillary.

AMEN

About Pence, I think he's handled himself really well and I would be beyond shocked if he left the ticket at this stage of the game. I don't even see it as a realistic option at this point. It would be career suicide as much of the GOP base would look at it as betrayal.

Pence has positioned himself to possibly become president as well. I've had a thought that Donald Trump is 70 years old. Let's imagine that Trump wins the election next month, and has 4 successful but grueling years in office. Would he really want to run for a second term? Could he pass the buck to Pence, so to speak? There's also the health issues to consider, I have not seen any of those from Trump but it does happen to people in their 70s.

That's just some rambling and speculation on my part anyway. I do think Pence has probably gotten frustrated at some of what has happened recently but I don't see any major issues coming from it on his end.

Mike is only 57 too. If Trump loses he gets to look like a loyal soldier to Trumps base in 4 years.

Trump has taken on the Democrats, the Clinton Machine, George Soros, The Mexican Drug Lords, ISIS, the Republican Establishment and the Media.

He has some of the most powerful enemies on the planet right now.

I for one truly worry for his safety.

Well it depends.

remember the rumors or whatever it was about Trump basically letting Kasich handle most of the stuff? Trump would basically be a glorified figure head(up for debate as to whether or not thats what the presidency is, anyway).

If Pence wasn't offered that same sort of deal, i could see Trump vacating after 4 years and telling Pence to have at it.

if he did offer him something like that, I could see trump trying to run for reelection.

But first, he'd have to be elected, and second, everything would have to go right during the presidency for that scenario to happen.

cause if his presidency is a train wreck, well...you've already seen how quick the GOP is to jump ship. he could very well go into the primary season having to battle just to say at the main ticket.

here's the problem: is that base enough to get elected?

so far, it isn't.

is Pence capable of pulling cross-over votes?

So far, probably not. Pence isn't a center right candidate when you look at his record. so i dunno if holding on to the Trump-Palin base is even worth it, or he's gonna have to change up some of his positions.

There were some rumors I read a while back that the reason he often wears an unbuttoned suit jacket is that he normally wears a bullet-resistant vest to rallies and such. The extra girth makes an otherwise properly fitted suit too tight. I don't know if that's true but it wouldn't surprise me.

Flies are drawn to crap.

It's been awhile since I've heard much about the Turks and Kurds... I'll defer to you on this as you know more about the region than I, but wasn't Turkey ok with us working with the Kurds post Saddam-Iraq, but they wee against the proposal to divide Iraq in to 3 states: Shia, Shiite, and Kurd? IIRC they did not support a Khrurdish state fearing that the Kurds in Turkey would secede and parts of Turkey would be annexed in to the new Kurdish state? I also seem to recall that Turkey allowed us to fly through their airspace but wouldn't let us drive through it?

What really sucks is that out of all the groups over there, the Kurds seem like the ones we could seriously back and not have it to come back and bite us in the ass a decade later. They don't seem to be motivated by religious conquest and they are willing to fight when groups like ISIS spring up.