DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... It Happened Again. Another Flight Crew Can’t Believe a Black Woman Is Actually a Doctor

Swear to god we can't do anything right or respectable in this country.

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/it-happened...-205952003.html

Dr. Ashley Denmark, D.O., who hails from South Carolina, was on a flight from Seattle to Hawaii. The trip, to attend a good friend’s wedding, was intended as a bit of a rest and relaxation period for the busy doctor, wife, and mother of two. As soon as she heard there was a traveler in need of medical assistance, though, Denmark got up and made her presence known. That’s when everything went awry. Denmark shared her story on her website:

“As I settled in to watch a movie and read a book, about 1 hour into our flight over the intercom, a flight attendant requested a doctor or nurse to report to front of cabin to assist a passenger. When duty calls it calls — even if you are 30,000 feet in air…”

And she continued on social media:“The flight attendant didn’t believe I was a doctor and told me to have a seat while 2 nurses provided medical care to the passenger.”

It was merely a few days ago when Tamika Cross, MD, another young, black physician described a very similar situation happening on a different Delta flight. In Cross’s situation, the passenger was unresponsive, a seemingly life-threatening situation in which every second counted.

What exactly is it that inspires seemingly normal people to prevent qualified individuals from offering their professional assistance? In life-or-death situations, do we really have time to be prejudiced?

A report by the Washington Post, points to the phenomenon of “implicit bias” as the culprit. “Overt bias certainly exists, but there is also a growing body of scientific literature that’s revealing an even more uncomfortable truth,” according to the article. “Deep-seated unconscious biases help steer our thinking and behavior — even when we don’t realize it.”

One can only hope that by sharing their stories, women like Cross and Denmark can begin to receive the respect that others — particularly older, white men — enjoy without needing to jump through hoops to prove themselves.

Denmark reiterated this hope, telling Yahoo Beauty that she hopes her story raises awareness to the fact that the face of medicine is changing. “Doctors can be young, female, or come from different ethnic backgrounds,” she says. “My hope is that Delta takes into account my unfortunate experience and prevents a similar occurrence from happening again. Despite this experience, I have remained focused and will continue to do so, striving to be the best physician, mother, and wife I can be.”

And to those last words, we’re happy to give her more than the benefit of the doubt.

It's not because she was black, it's because she's a DO...


Someone had to say it.

What exactly is a D.O and why does it need to be said?

And why, coming from the Pacific North West (probably one of the more progressive areas of the country where you wouldn't think you'd run into this) are you running into this?

Hello? Like his political stance or not, Dr. Ben Carson is pretty darn black! No one doubts his qualifications!

If anyone is going to mess with my head (other than my wife) I want it to be him.

Hang in there swish, all this long suffering will pay off eventually.

Yea, I wonder how many have heard that one since 1865.

It's not suffering, it's the fact that we get our credentials questioned in whatever job we do.

I dunno man. I just don't get it. It just really feels like society can't believe blacks are capable of jobs like this.

This too shall pass, just like slavery, Jim Crow and all that other crap.

You're studying Logistics right?

I've painted for two different families that were in that line of work. Both of them-LOADED.

One of them even owns a house at Apple Valley.

Don't give up. That'll be you one day.

It's not a FACT where I am from.

Wait a minute, so are you telling me a black woman can be a doctor now?

I can't even imagine a doctor being told that. Only thing I can think of is that the patient was a racist and refused help from them or something insanely stupid like that.

My family doctor is white because we love him to death and is super reliable but I have used black, Indian, Asian, and Hispanic doctors before just fine. I've just never cared that much.

I think caring more about ones health would trump whatever racist or mysogonistic feelings one would have. One would think that if you're about to die you won't care if your doctor is Hispanic or black. Surviving trumps any irrational feelings.

They probably didn't believe her because she spoke English

Why do you love to further the divide? You realize we could go tit for tat w/negative articles about various races, right? For example:

You aren't suggesting we sweep this under the rug are you? Are you saying that because it's tit for tat we should just not discuss things like this?

There are a million stories that make the other race look bad. I am saying instead of ONLY pointing out one side of the argument, that perhaps we should try to fix the freaking problem rather than continually assign blame to ONLY one side.

Clear enough for you?

Ok, so you do want to sweep it under a rug.. Got it!

EDUCATIONAL INFORMATION...

D.O. vs. M.D.
Both D.O.s and M.D.s typically have a four year undergraduate degree prior to medical training.
Both D.O.s and M.D.s have spent four-years in medical education. Both take the MCAT and are subject to a rigorous application process. Historically, D.O. schools are more open to the non-traditional candidate.
D.O.s, like M.D.s, choose to practice in a specialty area of medicine and complete a residency program ranging from 3-7 years. Some D.O.s complete the same residency programs as their M.D. counterparts.
M.D. students take the USMLE exam and D.O. students take the COMLEX exam. Both must pass a state licensing examination to practice medicine.
D.O.s perform surgery, deliver babies, treat patients, prescribe medications, and work in the same settings as M.D.s. D.O.s use the same tools, treatments, and technologies of medicine as M.D.s.
D.O.s receive extra training in the musculoskeletal system, which make up the muscles and bones of a person.
Who has higher MCAT scores? D.O. vs. M.D. applicants.
The main difference between the two types of physicians is that D.O.s have been specially trained to perform osteopthic manipulations on patients. They view the patient as a "total person" and focus on preventative care. They view the whole body rather than treat specific symptoms or illness. D.O.s use Osteopathic Manipulative Treatment (OMT) in their practice. This involves the use of their hands to diagnose injury and illness and to encourage your body's natural ability to heal. Osteopathic medicine is a fast-growing segment of the United States healthcare field.

The American [censored]-person approach to medicine, approximately 60 percent of all D.O.s choose to practice in the primary care disciplines of family practice, general internal medicine and pediatrics. Approximately 40 percent of all D.O.s go on to specialize in a wide range of practice areas. If the medical specialty exists, you will find D.O.s there.

"While America's 47,000 D.O.s account for only 5 percent of the country's physicians, they handle approximately 10 percent of all primary care visits. D.O.s also have a strong history of serving rural and underserved areas, often providing their unique brand of compassionate, patient-centered care to some of the most economically disadvantaged members of society."
LINK

What?

I said to find solutions. How is that sweeping it under a rug?

Go away.

How is it furthering the divide by pointing out things that divide us? I point it out so we can fix this and move on.

You have no idea what you're talking about. And you're getting real annoying trying to play forum mod all over these threads.

If you want to be a ref so bad, ask purp. Til then, stop trying to regulate what posters can and can not post.

Would you like a tissue for your issue?

J/C..

I recently got a new job as a lead UI developer at big company. I used to work for the Attorney Generals office (Yes I worked for the state's top police officer, while helping support/build systems that were crucial for all police officers in Ohio)

Any who, at the AG's office I worked downtown, it was very corporate environment, I wore oxford shirts and was always dressed up. I work downtown with my new job, however I can wear T-shirts, shorts, whatever I want. It has been a very interesting experience, I get treated differently now while downtown. Before people treated me with much more respect, and urgency now I have been ignored by people, it takes longer to get served at places and people look at me differently.

That's the thing Lurker. Do we know for sure that this woman was dismissed specifically because of her race? It could of been any number of things. The flight attendant thought she was too young? Was she dressed super casual? Heck, it might of even been a "sexist" thing.

I know when I fly, even for business trips, I usually wear a hooded sweatshirt, mostly because it's comfortable, and if the plane gets too cold, then I'm not bothered by it. I would never pass for a doctor, even if I was one.

But I can see why people get fatigued by these stories, "I didn't get what I wanted/I was disrespected. It HAS to be because of my race".

I remember having a conversation with my neighbor. A sweet, older woman who also happens to be black. We were talking about several different things regarding home repairs, the neighborhood, etc. She mentioned that she wanted to redo her entire fence, but she also wanted the neighbors to chip in and pay for their half of the fence, which is fair, but also expensive.

Yet she made a comment about bringing this up to the other neighbors and that they didn't really want to do it. She said, "I guess nobody wants to listen to the little old black lady." And she made that reference several times, at one point suggesting that I should maybe talk to the neighbors and that they would listen to me. It was like people didn't want to repair their adjoining fence only because she was an old black lady. Not that it was expensive, or they thought their fence was good enough for now, or any other number of reasons. It was like race was the only possible explanation.

Dressing for success is a very real thing.

Good point (not saying this applies to this specific situation, but it might).

I stopped wearing jeans a while back, just got bored with them. I started wearing Dickies work pants, usually gray or blue. When I'd be walking around a store people would approach me a lot more and ask where something is because they assumed I worked there (picture me in navy blue work pants and a white polo at a grocery store or Home Depot).

I didn't get pissed off because I actually have a white-collar job and people shouldn't assume I'm some "lowly retail worker". I'd just brush it off because I dress in a casual way where people might assume that's the case.

Meaning, people assumed I was something I'm not because of the way I was dressed, not my race.

Everything you are describing is implicit bias, and at the end of the day most people have stereotypes around black people. So its more logical that person would deny her services because she was black rather than deny her services because she was wearing casual clothes. We can justify all day but at the end of the day you are not the woman who lived through that experience.

Have you thought about what your neighbor has been through in her life time? She is older so she grew up in Jim Crow laws. Can you see how living through something like that affects they way she deals with white people and how she deals with a confrontation. Just by the little you said pretty much tells me that she has been dismissed in her lifetime so much that she was looking at you to help her to validate her issue.



I encourage you to read about Implicit Bias.

Implicit Bias

Its not about dressing for success, I am successful lol.

Hipsters dress the same way and much worse then I do and they have zero issues. My coworkers are more casual then I am and I see a difference. So what do you guys think the issue is?

It's not about how you much you make, as no one is really aware of that, but how you're perceived by others. If you look professional you'll tend to be treated professionally.

Perceived by who? In my field, people are not judged by the way you look, its about what you have between your ears. Many developer wear very casual clothing because we are behind computers all day so no one cares. At the Attorney General's office it was different because I was in constant meetings with attorneys who wore suits all day so my job demanded corporate attire.

What you wear to work is really dependent on what type of job you have it should make no difference how people should treat you. Everyone should be treated with respect and as a professional, from the banker, to the Taco Bell worker, to the venture capitalist to the garbage true driver.

So should a banker be treated with more respect and professionalism because he wears a suit?

Absolutely there is implicit bias in a lot of things. And race can be a part of it in many cases. The problem is that if it ever involves a minority race, then all the other things immediately get tossed out the window, and it HAS to be the race. Then it becomes a big news story and people wonder why others get tired of hearing about it.


Oh, I'm positive that she's probably dealt with a LOT in her lifetime. I was already really feeling bad for her by the third time she mentioned she was just a little ol' black woman. I was doing everything I could to assure her that she wasn't the reason that people didn't want to do it, and told that I would even build the fence myself if she needed me to get it done for her.

If you wear a t-shirt and shorts you're going to get perceived differently than if you're wearing a suit. Certainly everyone should be respectful and polite but shorts and a t-shirt does not create a professional look.

If you choose to call someone at Taco Bell serving tacos a professional, I suppose that's up to you, I really don't. I'm talking about people on the street. People you don't know. If you're referring to how co-workers treat you, there could be all kinds of different reasons for being treated differently than you expect that has nothing to do with attire.

Damn, where have I heard that before?

Haha that was my first thought as well...

Are there a bunch of people on flights that fake being a doctor so that flight attendants wouldn't believe someone?

The story doesn't go into great detail, could it be that maybe the passenger needing assistance just needed help with something (pills, shot, etc.) and it wasn't a medical emergency and the nurses got there first.

My first impressions are behavioral observations.

This example is sad and, most likely, a racial bias.

However, we do not know what occcured prior to this incident.

And, it remains an individual's choice, for whatever reason, who they choose for their care.


For whatever reason. Make it racial if you must. Personal care is an individual choice.

the person in need of care wasn't the one complaining, the flight attendant was the one keeping the doctor from helping.

I don't know any of the details about this second episode but in the first episode she couldn't produce her medical license. I am a white male physician and had an episode where I was on a plane (delta) and was called on to assist in an medical emergency on the plane. They would not let me do anything until I was able to produce a copy of my medical license to prove that I was an actual doctor.

Every year that I renew my medical license, I get a wallet size copy that I keep with me essentially at all times. It is essentially the size of the little square car insurance card we get. Takes up no space at all.

just in case some of you were too lazy to click on the link of the doctor detailing her experience:

It was supposed to be a relaxed flight. I’m a mother of two young children with a husband busy in his 3rd year of law school. By the way, did I mention I’m a physician completing my 2nd year of family medicine residency? Extremely busy right? So you can imagine as a busy mom and professional like so many, I was in DIRE need of a vacation. So when my college friend decided to have a destination wedding in Hawaii last week, I seized the opportunity to book me and my hubby two airline tickets with Delta to paradise.

So fast forward to our flight Delta 2215 from Seattle to Hawaii last week. As I settled in to watch a movie and read a book, about 1 hour into our flight over the intercom, a flight attendant requested a doctor or nurse to report to front of cabin to assist a passenger. When duty calls it calls- even if you are 30,000 feet in air. Without hesitation, I got out of my seat and made my way towards the front of the cabin where I was greeted by two Caucasian women and a delta flight attendant. I quickly asked “What’s going on?” Then I stated, “I’m a doctor. How can I help?” Immediately, I was greeted by puzzled looks from all three women. The flight attendant asked, “Are you a doctor?” to which I replied “Yes.” My response only left a more puzzled look on the attendant’s face. She turned around and began to talk to another flight attendant. I stood there in bewilderment because someone on the plane was in need of medical assistance and no one was escorting me to the passenger in need. Finally, one of the Caucasian passengers who came to assist spoke and stated her and the other passenger present to assist were both nurses. Then she asked, “Are you a doctor?” to which I responded “Yes” …..again. She immediately responded “Well you need credentials to show you are a medical professional.” I gave a funny look but, remained composed and quickly quipped “I have my hospital badge which should be enough.” At this time the flight attendant turned around to address us again. She inquired from the two nurses what field of medicine in which they worked. At this point, I had grown annoyed. I had been standing for four minutes and had yet to see the passenger needing medical assistance. I grew even more perplexed as time passed. Why was the flight attendant addressing the nurses if a doctor is present and able to assist a passenger in need of medical attention? I interrupted the flight attendant’s discussions with the two nurses and stated, “I have my hospital ID badge which shows I’m a physician.” The Delta flight attendant continued to look puzzled then stated, “We have two nurses here who came first. You can have seat now and we will let them handle it. If we need more help we will come and find you.” Wait a minute- stop the presses! What just happened?!?! I advised that I was a doctor who was licensed to provide medical care. Instead of being escorted to the passenger in need of help, I was directed to return to my seat and told that the two nurses could take care of the situation.

I pondered to myself the appropriate manner on how to handle this situation. Should I address the elephant in the room- 30,000 feet in the air in front that of all these passengers? I opted to comply. I turned around and walked back to my seat. As I walked back I scanned the cabin. I looked for someone in distress, unresponsive wondering who was this person who needed help? Roughly 4- 5 minutes had nearly passed and no one had addressed the passenger medical needs that was urgent enough for the flight attendant make an overhead announcement. As I looked through the cabin I was mostly greeted with stares and whispers. At that moment the gravity of the situation hit me like a ton of bricks. Apparently the nurses and flight attendants didn’t think I was a doctor. Why else were nurses being allowed to take charge in a medical situation when a doctor was present? Surely it couldn’t be the color of my brown skin? Healthcare is centered around group efforts from various medical professionals but, the doctor ALWAYS serves as the leader making healthcare decisions. So here I was, the doctor with 11 years of training being asked to take a seat and not partake in caring for the passenger in need.

As an African American female physician, I am too familiar with this scenario. Despite overcoming and excelling academically and obtaining the title of Dr. in front of my name, I still get side-eye glances when I introduce myself as Dr. Denmark. Commonly, I’m mistaken for an assistant, janitor, secretary, nurse, student, etc even when I have my white coat on; I’m called these names more frequently than I would like instead of Dr. Denmark. In these situations, we are often taught to be graceful and smile in the face of adversity out of fear of repercussions such as being viewed as “hostile”, “too sensitive”, or my favorite “you are misinterpreting the situation.”

Being a doctor is hard work. Your services are constantly needed, you have a never-ending stack of paperwork, very long work hours, you are constantly an emotional support for patients during their most trying times. But, being an African American doctor is many times harder with the adversity we face on frequent basis. We are constantly overlooked, questioned, doubted and find ourselves in situations where we are working twice as hard as other non-African American Doctors just to prove we are good enough to be called doctors. Well enough is enough. I feel it’s time to share the discrimination I have faced as an African American doctor. I’m sure I’m not alone and there are many other African American doctors like me who have endured discrimination in silence. Often time we have to face this adversity with class and grace- never breaking a sweat and holding in our frustration as people treat us unjustly all because of the color of our skin.

But this is 2016 not 1960. It’s time for Americans who practice these kinds of behaviors to elevate their social consciousness and realize that African Americans are just as equally talented and capable of holding any job in this land. This incident with Delta Airlines just shines the light on how often times African American doctors and other professionals like myself endure discrimination. We shouldn’t have to suffer in silence and continue to ignore blatant discriminatory practices as “misunderstandings”. Any discrimination at any level whether, age, race, sex, religion should not be tolerated. To Delta Airlines, which serves a major corporation providing service to people of all ethnic backgrounds, ages and genders, I hope you use this as an opportunity to change the narrative and be an example to the American society to promote fair and equal treatment for all.

You don't know that. Posting the article again for those of us to lazy was pointless. You have absolutely no clue what was said between the flight attendant and the passenger.

You really should be more careful with your "lazy" comments. If you only had a clue.

umm. yes, thats exactly what happened. the person who needed the care wasn't the one keeping the doctor from helping, the flight attendant was. thats exactly what happened.

at this point it doesn't matter. you and others will continue dismissing everything that's obvious right in your face.

Reading what you posted Swish, the doctor does say that the nurses were there first and it could be as simple as that. Can't say for sure as I wasn't there but it could be the doctor mistook that as racism.

Doesn't matter the attendant turned down the help of a black women doctor in favor of two white nurses with lesser credentials. Paint it anyway you want, it's racism.

Mistook? Yeah, that's rich.