DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where the Browns are and going forward

As a general, casual, but avid fan, I’m of course not thrilled with where the Browns are right now. I was hoping for more.

But, I wonder. Are the “powers-that-be” making the right moves?

I’m excited about the 2016 draft class. It seemed to me to be brilliant. It seems the Browns definitely had a top-tier draft talent-wise. With spectacular future draft value.

And the summary dismissing of players who were expected to be starters but who I assume were “locker-room cancers”. Is this right?

Maybe the next two years are akin to “spring training”. For the next decade.

Am I close?

Who are the picks with the spectacular draft value?

Remains to be seen.

They're "future draft" picks.

It's easy to scoff at the idea that the Browns are showing encouraging signs. Easy to pour scorn on the team and organization and say "same old Browns" - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Easy to claim that the bad ref calls in the early games were only a factor because the team let them be, and if they were better then they would simply have won.

However - I am encouraged. I am very encouraged. Whether or not it was the best plan - and whether or not Wentz (who will ALWAYS be one of the yardsticks the FO are measured against) is a future HOF'er - the FO had a plan for draft day and the off-season as a whole. Instead of reacting and looking clueless and like the rest of the NFL was taking advantage of Browns naivete - it looked like we were choosing our own destiny. . . . and while there are criticisms, I feel much better about the guys in charge being in control of their own fate than reacting and knee jerking their way through the process. I'm not going to debate the FA's who walked and why - and whether we should have stuck with Wentz regardless because QB is *the* most important position ....

Instead I'll say (in no particular order) I am encouraged by Coleman looking like a game changer, impact player. I think Shelton has been coached up and is playing WAY above expectations. Nassib and Ogbah look good enough to be starters for the next 5-8 years at this moment. Kessler has the mental capacity to succeed in the NFL. . . we will find out if his physical skill set is adequate or improves. But for a rookie 3rd rnd QB who everyone claimed was taken way too early - he's exceeded any expectation I had.... I do find it strange that folks praise Wentz and Doug Peterson for creating an opportunity for Wentz to succeed in his first 2-3 games when he was not asked to do much - and yet when the Browns do the same with Kessler it's labelled dink and dunk and it's because Kessler can't do anything else. Certainly with only 1 1/2 viable WR's to throw to - I think that it's smart (Pryor is one Hawkins is the 1/2).

What's troubling is - given the ridiculous number of injuries - Shon Coleman hasn't sniffed the field. Not good for a 3rd round pick. And other than Schobert - the 4th round picks and later all are MIA. . . now you don't expect those guys to contribute right away on most teams - but the Browns are lacking talent, so it should be easier for these picks to get into the team, and they haven't (Or in Louis and Kindred's case they are starting but not making a good impression).

I like the attitude the players are playing with and it looks like they are better coached than in previous years. I like Hue's confidence and he is no doubt an excellent motivator. Not so happy with some of the game day decisions. . . . but just like I don't expect the FO to hit on every draft pick - I don't expect Hue to call a faultless game.

Anyway - bottom line, despite the win loss record I am encouraged and it does not feel to me like the same old Browns.... and, another factor, I don't see Haslam's fingerprints anywhere on the football operations side of the organization . . . i think he has learnt his lesson after JF/Farmer and Pet.

Enjoyable read for me mgh.

Original ("your own words") and comprehendable for my level of understanding.

Agreed. When I mentioned spectacular future draft value, let me put another way.

Let's say you have a paper bag with $1,000,000 inside. It has a lot of value. (better call it "potential value")

You could buy a house, car and have a comfortable remaining life.

Or you could throw the bag in a fire and in 1 minute it has zero value.

(like so many top Browns' picks the last 16 years)

If we use our picks next year I will have hope, if we do the moneyball trade down and down then we are doomed, same old rinse repeat lose.

It's easy to scoff at anyone who is trying to evaluate things objectively on a case-by-case basis. It's apparently even easier to say "I am encouraged" and "it doesn't feel like the same old Browns."

The cool thing is that we are all entitled to our opinions, even if that offends certain people.

to me, coleman looks pretty good (when he's played), nassib's looked pretty good (when he's played), ogbah looks meh, louis looks meh, kindred looks okay ... and that's it.

not really any reason for excitement as of now

Given that we never seem to see eye to eye and that you end up insulting and lying about things I say - I'd prefer you not to comment on any of my posts. Thanks.

As for this particular post - it was a general comment aimed at abyone and everything - media, and non-Browns fans in particular who are paying no attention to the team. . . .

we really have to see bro.

i mean some of the players drafted this year have already shown some flashes. that's...well at least the potential is there. i mean the only guy i really have no idea why he's playing is Schobert. i really want to see what Wright can do.

coleman has flashed, but he's been injured. that 100 yard, 2 TD game was nice.

it's just, we've been hit with so many crazy injuries. so while we already knew what this year was, this upcoming offseason is where I'm going to judge Sashi and Paul the hardest. I want to see what they address in FA, who we sign, who we let go, and i want to see how they attack the draft.

i think we have the coaches to develop the talent on the field.

we just need the players.

I am definitely encouraged in several ways:

I see potential in Kessler, Pryor, Coleman, Higgins, Peyton, Louis, Telfer, Drango, and Reiter. It is too early to judge them either way thus far, but there are things to be encouraged about.

On defense we have the massive improvement in Shelton and Meder. (who, at least, looks like a legitimate rotation guy as of now) Nassib looked good before he was injured. Ogbah and Schobert have been up and down, but that is not unusual with rookie 3-4 OLB. Our 2 young Safeties, Kindred and Campbell, have shown talent. They might play the same position, but might be able to play in some sub packages, with one moving into a cover LB type role. I am encouraged b y these 2. At worst, it looks like they can push one another at SS. It's never a bad thing to have quality depth. Boddy-Calhoun looks like a guy who can. at least, be a nickel/dime corner.

We have so much youth, and it is so early, that it is hard to know anything for sure. We have definitely not had the results we would all like to see ..... but since I initially thought that we would go winless over the 1st half of the season, and given that we have lost to injury 3 QB, 2 TE, 2 WR, (depending if Pryor is able to go, or has to sit out a game, or more) 2 C, 1 LG, a DE, DT. FS, SS, and 2 CB ...... as weird as it sounds, being in the spot we're in is actually ahead of where we should be. We probably should be winless, while being blown out in every game. That has not been the case. The team is playing hard, and is competitive in most of their games. Players are getting valuable experience. I said that I thought that it would take at least 3 years to get this turned around, especially when we went with youth to such a huge degree, and it might .... but it also might start to turn around sooner than that. We're 1/3 of the way through the season, and we'll see how the next 2/3 of the season goes.

You talk down about other posters. Using phrases like easy to scoff at and have scorn for........

I have no problem w/you being encouraged, but I do have a problem w/your haughty, mocking, insulting tone. And when I see it, I will reply to it whether you like it or not.

In Internet slang, a troll (/'tro?l/, /'tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often for their own amusement.

That's not insulting and is certainly on-topic.

No kiddin' about Kessler.

A fourth round rookie QB.

Wouldn't you say the Browns game plan back on August 31st was most likely that Kessler would not be taking any game snaps this year?

Let alone being the starting QB.

And as a fan, not thinking the Browns already lost Sunday because he is the starter.

I don't think the Browns will win on Sunday, but I don't think they'll lose because of Kessler (A feeling I had all the time with - for instance - Weeden)

Of course, I'm only Joe Six-Pack-Browns-Fan, which means I'm stupidly optimist enough to think Kessler could develop into something special.

You can traces of talent that ceiling to grow..in the past the previous failures at GM drafted players that already peaked
now the Browns needs some drafts were their picks can make immediate
contributions not 3 years down the road
and Haslam needs to actually spend dollars in free agency and not be cheap

I agree with you, and I agree with the ones who seem down on the direction. Kessler is doing OK, but for a rook QB, that is pretty darn good. Ogbagh is on pace for maybe 3-4 sacks....I wouldn't call that good at this point. None of the receivers have done anything in the regular season, Nassib showed promise, but he looks like a classic bull rusher.

What I do like is I see a spark. The team plays hard, though I did leave last weeks game because both my son and I decided getting the seat of our choice in the restaurant of our choice was better than watching the Browns get hammered for a second half of football. Cleveland has some great restaurant choices, so it isn't a wasted trip in my view.

I don't know Rocky, I like the staff and front office. This next draft is going to tell the tale. I am not going to be happy if we keep trading back our top picks. At some point we don't need picks, we need players. In this draft, if we have the #1 pick, we need to draft Myles Garrett, end of story as far as I am concerned.. He is the best to come along in 20 years. Our 2nd pick needs to be the best DB or safety we can get, and it is a pretty deep class. We can get a good one with the Eagles pick....they are starting to fade a bit. We don't need to reach for a QB....Chad Kelly can be had in the 2nd round...he's a gamer.....if we are even still in the market for a QB. Kessler has made strides every week.

Kelly plays LSU tonight at 9PM at LSU...a tough night game to win for a visitor. Those Cajuns are loud and rowdy after a day of Gumbo and a Gallon of beer at the tailgate. LSU is down this year, but their D has several 1st rounders on the field....Adams is a heck of a safety....he'd look good in a Browns uniform. This will be a good evaluation game for those interested in giving Kelly a look......ESPN I think.

Quoted for silliness.

Why would you post that? So, someone has a different feeling than you, and you call them silly?

I wouldn't call it silly. It's just looking at one side. I am encouraged. I see things I haven't seen in several years.



I do however see that we better get it right and I am not all that encouraged we did with out first draft under this regime.


As I said earlier, the only thing we need more than more top picks is top players. It's time to turn what we have in to 3-4-5 good players. I also think we need to loosen up a bit and be at least fairly active in the FA market this next year. I totally agree you need to build through the draft, but you also need to plug and play a few players to fill holes. You can't count on a team full of rookies to step in and play like a vet.


I am encouraged we have some offensive weapons and a coach who understands O. I am discouraged in that our D lacks just about everything. We have to draft D and plug and play a few vets to give us a chance.


I a article I read some time back, Joe Thomas said the problem with changing staffs is the middle class gets wiped out. Teams keep the stars and the young guys and let the others go.


It would be nice to have nothing but stars on it, but just like this country, everybody isn't going to be "rich" or a star player. You have to have a middle class to carry the load. You can't have a few stars or rich people and a bunch of scrubs or poor people. It just doesn't work. You need the bulk being in the middle.


My hope is while we seem poor at the moment, we end up with a bulk of middle class player with a few star players.

0-16 ahead

I had to go look it up, but we have had a few seasons with 7 game losing streaks in the same season...in 2004 we had a 9-game losing streak...If we don't beat the jets next we have Dallas after that...could be a new record...

Not sure if we go 0-16 but dang I'd like to see all of our starters play at least 3 games in a row...now we will have starters rotating back in slowly and getting back into game shape so they will be rusty. If Josh comes back next week, how many hits can he take? How many concussions can Cody take with the hits he is taking?

How can protect our players from getting injured...we have enough up-hill battles w/o injuries. Shoot - having a QB able to play a complete game would be an upgrade and a win at this point..How do we build continuity and consistently with swapping players every week and playing so many guys out of position?

At least I give Hue credit from the presser..he says he is "disappointed" not "discouraged"...hope that is true...

At some point, does the record really matter?


I know before the season I said we would win 7-9 games. I am a optimist for the most part. Once I see the reality of the season, I don't get too low.....is 4-12 all that much better?


At least we are now having announcers saying we are having a bad string of luck. I mean, we, and they have seen games we could have won. They see the hustle. Now we are getting injured


I am very confident in saying we are better than our record reflects. We just need time and growth.

i just want one game bro.

i don't want to go 0-16. just one win and it's whatever, on to the off season.

we can win next week ... after that, MAYBE the giants and MAYBE SD at home

I was hoping for better record than last year but, not sure it will happen now. That said, I do think the team, as a whole, are better than last year's squad. Between all the drama, Manziel, Gilbert etc. we are much better without it all. But, we seriously need to invest in O-Line to protect our QB's. We also need a lot of help on Def.

I enjoy seeing SF's defense fail miserably. It would have been really difficult if O'Neill went off and had success but, he is proving what he is. If O'Neill is one and done and Chip is still struggling next year I wonder if Phil Knight offers him a package to come back to Oregon?

I do too. Heck, I want the rest for that matter..

Baltimore are not great and Pitt have Landry. Maybe we get one of these games too. Maybe.

except baltimore is primetime on the road and ben will be back by then

We have played well during prime time in the past.

Will Ben be back by 11/20?

ben will be back by the game before that (11/13), as was reported today

http://nesn.com/2016/10/why-patriots-jabaal-sheard-is-an-example-of-browns-biggest-problem/

New England Patriots Schedule Standings Stats Roster Live Blog Odds Tickets Why Patriots’ Jabaal Sheard Is An Example Of Browns’ Biggest Problem by Zack Cox on Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 9:08PM2,113 Share this: Veteran Cleveland Browns tackle Joe Thomas had some interesting comments Wednesday regarding Cleveland’s decision not to re-sign Jabaal Sheard when the defensive end hit free agency after the 2014 season.

The New England Patriots were quick to scoop up Sheard, who went on to finish second on the team in sacks last season with eight to go along with four forced fumbles. His three sacks through four games this season lead all Patriots defenders.

It’s a pattern Thomas, whose Browns host the Patriots this Sunday, has seen play out far too many times. “Certainly that’s one of the frustrations that I’ve had over the years (with the Browns),” Thomas told reporters, via ESPN.com. “That’s the problem when you’re constantly hitting the reset button. Guys that are really good players like that end up falling through the cracks or going to other teams, because any time a new staff comes in, basically they wipe out the middle class. “They keep a couple of your ‘superstars,’ and then they want everyone else being a rookie so that they can try to develop them. When you keep doing that over and over again, you really lose all your middle class on your team.”

Thomas has racked up individual accolades during his nine-plus seasons with the Browns (nine straight Pro Bowls, six first-team All-Pro nods), but he’s never played in a playoff game and hasn’t won more than seven games in a season since his rookie year. Cleveland has finished above .500 just twice since the franchise was rebooted in 1999 and has reached the postseason once, losing in the wild-card round in 2002.

“It’s always my job to do whatever I can to try to help my team win,” Thomas told reporters, “and I’ve always kind of been focused on doing my job to the best of my ability. Because that’s the best thing that I can do to help my team win. That’s kind of what you just have to focus on when you lose great players like that.” Patriots coach Bill Belichick has signed or traded for more than a dozen ex-Browns over the past few seasons, most notably Sheard, linebacker/defensive end Barkevious Mingo and running back Dion Lewis.

peen, I think there are problems w/the plan and that's not going to change because several posters scoff at that opinion and say things like "I am encouraged."

Problems:

--Not re-signing your quality free agents and creating even more holes in an already poor roster is baffling.

--Passing on impact players and stock-piling a lot of lower round picks sounds good, but a team full of guys w/out any stars is not going to win.

--Having so many players from the same draft class on the roster will create a scenario where too many contracts will occur at once, and the spin will be that "we couldn't possibly keep them all..."

--Having a roster that is almost completely devoid of guys who have won playoff games or played w/winning teams is an issue especially when you begin by losing so many games. We are developing a culture of losing and that is so hard to overcome. It's far more important than saying "we have so many draft picks."

--We failed to obtain a franchise qb and that problem is more-than-likely going to be compounded by having to go yet another year because the upcoming qb class doesn't look very good.

--Our team speed on defense is really poor. Heck, our overall team speed is poor. If I were building a team--on any level--team speed would be priority number one!

--Football is different than baseball. In football, you can't assign guys to your minor league teams and have them develop at their own pace. Instead, the roster is limited and you are almost forced to keep all of your choices [just like the Browns did this year w/the rookie class] if you want those players to develop. The problem is that when you draft a bunch of guys at one position, you are then neglecting other positions. I think analytics are a tool, but football is a totally different situation than baseball because you simply can't afford to load-up on one position group. In baseball, guys can stay in the minors for years, but in football, they need to be ready to perform.


I don't think those opinions are so awfully biased. I don't think they are because I "hate the FO." I think there is more logic behind them than some cheerleaders who belittle realistic opinions and offer up "I am encouraged" as proof as to why they are right.

But hey...............that's just me.

Vers....our FO right now is horrible. i know it's their first year but man...gutting the roster and not spending money in FA is killing us. i dunno how Hue keeps the O moving with our talent. and the defense....ugh.

I've been warning people about this too. Too many people are obsessed with having cap space and draft picks. What good do either of those do if you don't use them properly? Keep what you have and stop being greedy. Remember when we laughed at the Eagles for being in cap hell a few years ago? They seem to be doing pretty fine to me.

quote by me above:

"I'm stupidly optimist enough to think Kessler could develop into something special."

Yeah, like a hospital inpatient.

9-7

Well yeah, we gave them Wentz?

Our front office will be known as the benevolent front office.

Anyone expecting us to accumulate wins in the first year of a rebuild is setting themselves up for disappointment.

We are going to draft talent before we purchase talent.