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Man, I had to edit this because for some reason, some of the quotes get cut off then the post makes little or no sense,,, Wierd man Quote:
I'm not a Charlie Frye fan, but I think that he had a lot of problems last year, that were not of his making....
But But But,, what of all the talk about him looking down receivers, weak arm, no pocket presence, etc etc  Just pulling your leg man.
I'm no guru, but I have to ask, outside of the weak arm thing, how much of the other complaints about Charlie can be attributed to things out of his control? I honestly don't know the answer, but I have to believe that logically, there has to be plenty of blame to go around!
Last edited by Damanshot; 06/22/07 10:29 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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MY OPINION.... I think Charlie should have taken a leadership role with Edwards last season, and corrected some of the problems with BE's attitude.
Charlie could not get thru to BE last year, but neither could our WR coach, either of our O-cords, nor RAC. The only one that can get thru to BE is BE, and we will find out this year IF he can live up to his billing as a number 3 pick, or if he will continue to be Leon.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Charlie wasn't in a position to take charge....like he is this year.
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I agree, Charlie doesn't have the credibility to get in anybodys face.. his hold on the starting job has been tenuous at best, as it will be again this year if he does, in fact, start the season....
You have a struggling QB, a struggling WR, a struggling oline, struggling RBs... nobody has really proven enough to step in and take charge... in that case it falls on the coaches, and even though I'm not sure all of the coaches have the credibility, at least they have the authority to do something about it.
yebat' Putin
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Charlie wasn't in a position to take charge....like he is this year
Why?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Vers, some people just don't want to hear. You, mav, and myself have posted about the situation and it has been verified in the media. Bernie comes out and confirms it in his statements. Then people like Peen get their panties in a bunch because people that know what's going on don't buy into his blame the starting QB mantra. They get insulted by pointing out that the typical fan blames the QB for everything and gives him all the credit for everything.
It's pure and simple. The person responsible for BE's problems are BE, not Charlie, not Robiskie, not RAC. When the receivers are running the wrong routes 40% of the time, is it REALLY a surprise when the QB holds the ball too long? He can't be sure that the WR will be where he's supposed to be.
As someone else said, Charlie had his own struggles that are to be expected. Add to that the receivers running the wrong routes, blocking schemes not being called correctly for the play called, and you have serious problems with an offense.
Having said all that, I still believe that Frye will be the backup to Quinn....but I also think that will be a huge asset for the Browns, as you need a quality backup in this league.
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Vers, some people just don't want to hear. You, mav, and myself have posted about the situation and it has been verified in the media.
Coach, to be fair, I'm a pretty open minded guy and my tendency is to believe what someone tells me. But it took me a long time to accept that some people on here know someone inside the organization and that from time to time, they get insider info.
Up until recently, I clung to the belief that if you can't put a link up to verify what you are saying, then it's just an opinion. But I went back and did a little checking. (I'm not anal, I didn't do A LOT of checking, just some and even then, only on Vers) and what I found is that Vers does indeed seem to get info right before it becomes public knowledge.
But not everyone believes. Not everyone is willing to accept the word of a Vers, or you or the few others. And you know what, you should respect that, not taunt them for it They have every right to not Believe you if they choose.
Let's face it, without verification of some kind, why should they believe.. More importantly, why should you expect them to believe.
If I said to you and everyone on this board, that I ran into to Brian Brennen (don't know why I picked him, I just did  ) and he told me that Kellen Winslow is on the Trading Block, your first thought has to be,,, BULL! Right? (this is a rather absurd example to be honest but it's perfect to illustrate my point I think). Would you believe me? I think not!
So if people don't want to believe you and Vers and some others with those connections,, so be it! But please, don't hate on them for it!
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Daman, I am not taunting you at all. I understand what you're saying. What I'm talking about is Peen's attitude when the things that have been said have been verified in the media. Some people don't want the facts and when someone points them out, they are the ones ridiculed. All of what has been said, except for the actual percentages, have been documented in the media after the three of us talked about it on the board. This isn't rumors we're talking about. This is what has been reported in the media. It goes against SOME people's beliefs in the QB situation so it's ignored and others are talked down to. I just responded in kind.
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Quote:
Man, I had to edit this because for some reason, some of the quotes get cut off then the post makes little or no sense,,, Wierd man
Quote:
I'm not a Charlie Frye fan, but I think that he had a lot of problems last year, that were not of his making....
But But But,, what of all the talk about him looking down receivers, weak arm, no pocket presence, etc etc Just pulling your leg man.
I'm no guru, but I have to ask, outside of the weak arm thing, how much of the other complaints about Charlie can be attributed to things out of his control? I honestly don't know the answer, but I have to believe that logically, there has to be plenty of blame to go around!
I don't think any of us know the answer.... We can only advocate positions we think are true. I think that Anderson is being left out of the equation, as is Dorsey... note the title of the thread... Kosar on Quinn/Frye... not Kosar on QB situation... 
We need a QB who can win. We need a QB who can take a leadership role on the offense. Someone who can step up and take charge of the offense. If Charlie Frye can do it...fine. If not, go to someone else.
Does Frye look down receivers? Yes. The reason? He has to because he has no clue where his receivers are going, because the receivers don't know the play book, or are too self-involved to care. After all... "Leon can't be to blame. Nobody else can do what Leon can. Leon can try, but not even Leon can throw the ball to himself....."
Pocket presense... Well, We know Frye can't control his receivers.... 
Arm strength probably wouldn't matter as much, if Frye knew where his receivers were going...
There is plenty of blame to around. Question is... after accessing the situation, where do we go from here.... Frye, Anderson, Quinn, Dorsey ?
For the time being... I vote Anderson, and maybe put Brababy, aka Leon, on the bench.... as if I had a say so in the matter...
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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All Pro
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I hate Quarterback discussions!!! I don't care if Hitler is our Quarterback, I just want to win football games!!!!!!
Am I the only one that feels this way? lol.
Hitler was a little short, not to mention a bit too old to play QB in today's NFL.... I know what you're saying. I'm not a Charlie Frye fan, but I think that he had a lot of problems last year, that were not of his making.... That doesn't mean that I don't think Anderson could do better, but I do admit it is unfair to blame Charlie for all the problems with the Brown's Offense last season....
MY OPINION.... I think Charlie should have taken a leadership role with Edwards last season, and corrected some of the problems with BE's attitude. The two of them were friends, hanging out together, working out together. Frye is probably the only person on the team that could have reached Edwards and shown him his attitude was destructive.
I don't know if this happened or not. I do know that Anderson was the QB to point out that Edwards did not know the offense and ran bad routes. That action gave me more respect for Anderson than Frye. If all else is equal, that's why I prefer Anderson to Frye. I want wins, not loses. Anyone who plays HAS TO WIN....  JMHO
I see this thread has deteriorated to a "make things up" point...your last point was false.
Dude, BE was called out on his play WEEKS before Anderson played a down...
Shoot, before the season started he was confronted...it never sunk in, the Browns are hoping Edwards has seen the light and pulled his head out his ass.
Now let me take you inside an NFL lockeroom --
A 3rd round QB who has yet to prov a thing, has basically no say, no voice and little input...
You think a 10 yr Vet is going to listen to Frye tell him to bust his ass?
How about a top 10 pick who is full of himself?
Here's one story - before the Carolina game, Frye spent 2 extra hours looping up film of plays the staff was preparing against The Panthers. Frye, Anderson, Dorsey, K2 and Hank Fraley were the only guys who stayed after on their own time to watch the film...and believe me, the ENTIRE offense was asked to stay...
Wherever you work, imagine the new guy or the guy with little experience coming in and getting on you for your performance? It doesn't go over well...
This isn't some "Remember the Titans" %#&*!@, these guys are highly paid, egotistical and have been highly praised athletes their whole lives.
Criticism doesn't go over well, to say the least.
In the NFL you either have a ring and have some clout or you lead by example.
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Wherever you work, imagine the new guy or the guy with little experience coming in and getting on you for your performance? It doesn't go over well...
Or when they come in, and don't take any notes on their job and just say..."uh huh, uh huh" and then come and ask you what to do when you already explained it to them and they didn't write it down or take the time to learn it!
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To add a tidbit about BE that I have shared before. He was sat down and talked to by the FO and RAC. He apologized for his actions to them and also seperately to Frye. He has claimed he "gets it" now and has changed his attitude. Hopefully, he has because the situation is one that apparently the FO will not tolerate in the future. It will be interesting to see if it does and if it doesn't (hopefully that isnt the case), what the FO will do.
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I hate Quarterback discussions!!! I don't care if Hitler is our Quarterback, I just want to win football games!!!!!!
Am I the only one that feels this way? lol.
Hitler was a little short, not to mention a bit too old to play QB in today's NFL.... I know what you're saying. I'm not a Charlie Frye fan, but I think that he had a lot of problems last year, that were not of his making.... That doesn't mean that I don't think Anderson could do better, but I do admit it is unfair to blame Charlie for all the problems with the Brown's Offense last season....
MY OPINION.... I think Charlie should have taken a leadership role with Edwards last season, and corrected some of the problems with BE's attitude. The two of them were friends, hanging out together, working out together. Frye is probably the only person on the team that could have reached Edwards and shown him his attitude was destructive.
I don't know if this happened or not. I do know that Anderson was the QB to point out that Edwards did not know the offense and ran bad routes. That action gave me more respect for Anderson than Frye. If all else is equal, that's why I prefer Anderson to Frye. I want wins, not loses. Anyone who plays HAS TO WIN.... JMHO
I see this thread has deteriorated to a "make things up" point...your last point was false.
Dude, BE was called out on his play WEEKS before Anderson played a down...
Shoot, before the season started he was confronted...it never sunk in, the Browns are hoping Edwards has seen the light and pulled his head out his ass.
Now let me take you inside an NFL lockeroom --
A 3rd round QB who has yet to prov a thing, has basically no say, no voice and little input...
You think a 10 yr Vet is going to listen to Frye tell him to bust his ass?
How about a top 10 pick who is full of himself?
Here's one story - before the Carolina game, Frye spent 2 extra hours looping up film of plays the staff was preparing against The Panthers. Frye, Anderson, Dorsey, K2 and Hank Fraley were the only guys who stayed after on their own time to watch the film...and believe me, the ENTIRE offense was asked to stay...
Wherever you work, imagine the new guy or the guy with little experience coming in and getting on you for your performance? It doesn't go over well...
This isn't some "Remember the Titans" %#&*!@, these guys are highly paid, egotistical and have been highly praised athletes their whole lives.
Criticism doesn't go over well, to say the least.
In the NFL you either have a ring and have some clout or you lead by example.
So in other words...Dan Marino walks into a practice and tells Braylon he's a dumbass who is too self-involved to be a viable team mate, and Edwards ignores him because HOF Quarterback, Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.
Anderson was the QB to come out in the media, and tell what was going on... by explaining that he threw to spots, and Braylon wasn't there, when he should have been, or that DA had to waste a time out, because Braylon didn't line up correctly. Maybe Frye did confront Braylon, but he didn't embarass him to the fans, which seems to be the only way to get through to him.... The general public is not privy to all that you are Mav. I didn't make things up, only reported what General/Public knowledge was.
The only way to successfully get rid of cancer, is to cut it out, all of it.....
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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Ahhh, but a true leader doesn't throw his teammates under the bus in the media, either. You handle it in-house.
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A couple of quick things.
I want to make it clear that I never said that they ran the wrong route 40% of the time. I really have no idea what the percentage was. All I heard was the "19" story and on several other occasions I heard it happened a lot.
I just don't want my name out there as the guy who said it was 40% of the time. It could have been lower; it could have been higher. But frankly, I just don't know for sure.
Hey Coach, are you saying you don't think Charlie will start this year?
And you are right about this.........it doesn't mean Charlie didn't talk to Leon just because he didn't blast him in the media.
Mav---------good story. I hadn't heard that one, but I believe it, because it is right on track w/what I've heard in regards to studying the play book.
Daman..........I guess you looked up the Andruzzi thing. But, just so you know....I spoke of Bentley being out in 2007 way back in September of last year, which was way before the media sniffed it. I also talked about all the offensive coaches and Lott being let go after the season....again.....way before the media had it. I usually try to be subtle about it, until someone pisses me off. *L*
Btw.......I can't believe anyone hasn't picked up on a couple of subtle comments I made in the Zone Blocking and Offensive Breakdown threads. I know those two things haven't yet been reported by the media. They will be though.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Hmm...I've gotten pretty good at decoding encrypted Brownspeak. I'll give it a shot as to what I think the media will be reporting.
-The details of zone blocking, in dumbed down form. In fact there will probably be a feature story on it.
-Quinn not starting, even without a holdout. (as much as I want to see it happen, I know Romeo and rookies and even if he does all the right things I can't see him pulling the trigger).
-Thomas being the starter as soon as he gets to camp, if not after the first preseason game.
-Shaffer not possibly, but probably being a $36 million cheerleader.
-All this Barclay hype being worthless cuz he'll be a part of the first round of cuts.
-Jamal Lewis looking good.
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Quote:
I want to make it clear that I never said that they ran the wrong route 40% of the time. I really have no idea what the percentage was. All I heard was the "19" story and on several other occasions I heard it happened a lot.
I just don't want my name out there as the guy who said it was 40% of the time. It could have been lower; it could have been higher. But frankly, I just don't know for sure.
I think it was Pdawg (apologies if in correct) who worked out the percentage from the amount of plays in the game you used the "19" for an example.
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Daman..........I guess you looked up the Andruzzi thing. But, just so you know....I spoke of Bentley being out in 2007 way back in September of last year, which was way before the media sniffed it. I also talked about all the offensive coaches and Lott being let go after the season....again.....way before the media had it. I usually try to be subtle about it, until someone pisses me off. *L*
I think you and Mav have hit enough to be considered "beyond doubt". I for one appreciate insider info.
#gmstrong
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I hate Quarterback discussions!!! I don't care if Hitler is our Quarterback, I just want to win football games!!!!!!
Am I the only one that feels this way? lol.
Hitler was a little short, not to mention a bit too old to play QB in today's NFL.... I know what you're saying. I'm not a Charlie Frye fan, but I think that he had a lot of problems last year, that were not of his making.... That doesn't mean that I don't think Anderson could do better, but I do admit it is unfair to blame Charlie for all the problems with the Brown's Offense last season....
MY OPINION.... I think Charlie should have taken a leadership role with Edwards last season, and corrected some of the problems with BE's attitude. The two of them were friends, hanging out together, working out together. Frye is probably the only person on the team that could have reached Edwards and shown him his attitude was destructive.
I don't know if this happened or not. I do know that Anderson was the QB to point out that Edwards did not know the offense and ran bad routes. That action gave me more respect for Anderson than Frye. If all else is equal, that's why I prefer Anderson to Frye. I want wins, not loses. Anyone who plays HAS TO WIN.... JMHO
I see this thread has deteriorated to a "make things up" point...your last point was false.
Dude, BE was called out on his play WEEKS before Anderson played a down...
Shoot, before the season started he was confronted...it never sunk in, the Browns are hoping Edwards has seen the light and pulled his head out his ass.
Now let me take you inside an NFL lockeroom --
A 3rd round QB who has yet to prov a thing, has basically no say, no voice and little input...
You think a 10 yr Vet is going to listen to Frye tell him to bust his ass?
How about a top 10 pick who is full of himself?
Here's one story - before the Carolina game, Frye spent 2 extra hours looping up film of plays the staff was preparing against The Panthers. Frye, Anderson, Dorsey, K2 and Hank Fraley were the only guys who stayed after on their own time to watch the film...and believe me, the ENTIRE offense was asked to stay...
Wherever you work, imagine the new guy or the guy with little experience coming in and getting on you for your performance? It doesn't go over well...
This isn't some "Remember the Titans" %#&*!@, these guys are highly paid, egotistical and have been highly praised athletes their whole lives.
Criticism doesn't go over well, to say the least.
In the NFL you either have a ring and have some clout or you lead by example.
So in other words...Dan Marino walks into a practice and tells Braylon he's a dumbass who is too self-involved to be a viable team mate, and Edwards ignores him because HOF Quarterback, Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.
Ok, ya got me, Marino might be the exception, but we're talking about Chuck, not Marino...
I just know what I know, and those guys on the team JUMP at anything WillieMac tells them. Why? If you ask them they'll say and I quote, "He's got a Ring".
It's just how it is from my experiences with some young guys on the team.
Players respect other players with hardware.
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If you have followed the things coming out of Berea, you can answer your own question. The offense was in complete shambles, wrong formations called for plays, wrong blocking schemes for plays called, receivers running the wrong routes or not lining up correctly or not knowiing the plays, a power struggle between the OC and the OL coach. Is it really hard to understand why anyone would seem lost? That's the things Kosar is referring to when he said that Frye did a good job considering everything going on.
I can answer this question, if all the things you said are true why the hell do we have Romeo still here today? The answer is either you are wrong or Savage is an idiot! Lets all guess the real answer. 
Just wait till next season, I have heard that for over 40 years!
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Hey Corpus..........who is Timid playing w/this year?
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Those are pretty good guesses and one of them is correct. Hell, they all may be, but I don't know if they are or not. LOL
But, here's the big one.........we are going to go to the LOS w/two plays called in the huddle. It will up to the QB to choose the "correct" play at the LOS. That's exciting and scary at the same time. I think it's huge. It will probably lead to some crazy this year, but it will be pay dividends down the road.
Then again...........maybe you guys don't think that's such big news. *L*
Riddler.....thanks for the backup. And I don't mind that PDawg or racer figured that percentage up. I just didn't want people to think I said that. Put it this way.....if the things I say don't come true....then guys like you wouldn't back me up anymore. If I put something out there for you guys to ponder........I want it to be true.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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you posted the 19...pdawg posted the total passes for the game.....i just used the calculator my intent was to just throw some perspective out there... 40% while not quite a coin flip, is gonna happen alot... what bothers me the most is that it was game 5...and we are probably talking about our first and second read on all of those plays... that left the dump off as the only reliable throw...or having to hold the ball to be sure of the route... couple that with mistakes by the rest of the offense, and the rest is history....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Here's one story - before the Carolina game, Frye spent 2 extra hours looping up film of plays the staff was preparing against The Panthers. Frye, Anderson, Dorsey, K2 and Hank Fraley were the only guys who stayed after on their own time to watch the film...and believe me, the ENTIRE offense was asked to stay..
Wow, after reading several posts it appers some question Frye's ability to lead. After reading this bit of info., if actually true, I question RAC's leadership and ability to create a winning attitude, let alone team.
It appears players come and go as they please and lack the desire to improve. I hope I am looking too much into this.
Hopefully, Chud will get everyone on the same page and players will learn/understand what it takes to win in this league.
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Verse, I really am not putting the enitre woes on offense at Charlies feet. But too many people are making too many excuses for the kid. All I am saying concerning the wrong routes is that there are two possibilities...And neither situation looks good for Charlie even though he isn't doing anything wrong. #1 He said something to them about it. Theey did not respect him enough to change for the better.....Not good for Charlie...the players don't respect the leader on Offense. #2 He didn't say something....Then he is not the leader we thought he should be... Again...either situation looks bad for Charlie...and he isn't even in the wrong. But we have too many people making too many excuses for him. - Bad Oline - still better than anything #2 had.
- balls dropped and INT's of receivers hands - what about all the passes thrown too low, too high, too far ahead, too far behind.
- switched OC's - This move helped Charlie it didn't hurt him.
And it goes even further....what about him taking 5 and 7 step drops on plays meant for 3. Look, I really didn't want to make this into a Charlie sucks thread. And frankly I know what you have said about things going on...and well you know that really sucks. And It is not Charlie's fault. But there is blame that rests completely and soley on him. Now if cliques are forming and there is dissention in the clubhouse that does reflect on him. He is the leader of the team or at least the Offense. And keeping that Offense tight is part of his job description. There was a lot of crud that happened last year...and Charlie had nothing to do with it. And it did have a large effect on his performance. But don't excuse him for things he is responsible for. Don't excuse him for things he has control over. And don't mistake me as doing the opposite. Things are not fair for Charlie. He was thrown into a rancid situation. And although unfair and not his fault, he has to shoulder some of the blame regardless of who it is supposed to go to. Hey, if you take a new job and are put in charge of the worst group of workers that ever lived....you will be judged upon by their performance. Fair or not. Aside from all of the physical aspects of his performance that I have ripped on. He was put in charge of the huddle and he lost that huddle.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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1. After one game, I believe it was the Carolina game, the players had a players only meeting and they ran through the entire game film. It was pointed out that Leon and K2 ran the wrong route on 19 occasions. Yes, 19 in one game. Now, factor in that running plays would not be included....so how many plays were left?
I just looked up the NFL Gamebook and it said 43 passes, 2 sacks and Frye ran twice. That's how I got 47 pass plays. I did not figure out percentages because I don't know from the facts you gave me if they both ever ran the wrong route on the same play.
I only bothered to look up the info because of the question you asked. If your number of 19 is right (I have no reason to doubt it) the percentage of pass plays would be at least 20% at best (minimum of 10 plays).
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
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Coach, I know you weren't taunting me,,,, I understand, we're good.. I was just stressing the point that I know from experience what if feels like to not know or understand that there are indeed some that have inside info. In the words of Bill Clinton, "I feel thier pain"
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Legend
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Daman..........I guess you looked up the Andruzzi thing. But, just so you know....I spoke of Bentley being out in 2007 way back in September of last year, which was way before the media sniffed it. I also talked about all the offensive coaches and Lott being let go after the season....again.....way before the media had it. I usually try to be subtle about it, until someone pisses me off. *L*
That wasn't one of them, but there were others,,, like I said, several people on here told me about you and Mav and Coach and so I did a little,,,,,VERY LITTLE, looking around and saw a few things that made me say,, OK,,,I'm wrong, I'll shut up about it....
I am more than capable of admitting when I'm wrong,,, it's just that I have so little experience at being wrong that I have so little experience at admitting it....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Hall of Famer
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Wow, after reading several posts it appers some question Frye's ability to lead. After reading this bit of info., if actually true, I question RAC's leadership and ability to create a winning attitude, let alone team.
Why? It was after practice. It's a group of guys putting in extra time.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Pete, I don't know how you can say: Quote:
Again...either situation looks bad for Charlie...and he isn't even in the wrong.
But we have too many people making too many excuses for him.
And then say:
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There was a lot of crud that happened last year...and Charlie had nothing to do with it. And it did have a large effect on his performance.
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Things are not fair for Charlie. He was thrown into a rancid situation.
Which is it Pete? I know you are not happy with his physical traits.....but can we at least see him behind this improved line and see what he does? And I don't mean in camp....you agree that all of this affected his performance last year, so let's give him a real honest look before passing final judgement.
And let's leave #2 in the past.....the situations are similar in some ways but oh so different in most ways.
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Pete, I'm not sure if you are reading what I am writing or not. LOL I think guys like Mav, Coach, and myself all admit that Charlie had/has some deficiencies. There is no question about that. He may improve on some of these weaknesses and some may plague him throughout his career. I think the problem we have is that too many people make crazy comments about how most of the offensive problems were because of Charlie. Sorry, but Charlie was not even close to being the biggest problem on offense. In fact, there were times when he had to do way too much. Quote:
But we have too many people making too many excuses for him.
* Bad Oline - still better than anything #2 had.
* balls dropped and INT's of receivers hands - what about all the passes thrown too low, too high, too far ahead, too far behind.
* switched OC's - This move helped Charlie it didn't hurt him.
* Pete.........no way was last year's line better than the line we had during Butch's first two years here. And it isn't a coincidence that we posted our best two records in those years.
* Yes, Charlie made bad throws.
* LOL.........okay.
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And it goes even further....what about him taking 5 and 7 step drops on plays meant for 3.
As I said.........I'm not arguing that he didn't make mistakes. Then again, he was kinda young, don't you think?
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There was a lot of crud that happened last year...and Charlie had nothing to do with it. And it did have a large effect on his performance. But don't excuse him for things he is responsible for. Don't excuse him for things he has control over. And don't mistake me as doing the opposite.
I'm not. I have even said that I'm not a huge Charlie Frye supporter. I am arguing his side because of the two sides, it's his bashers that are further off base. You take that how you will.......
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Now if cliques are forming and there is dissention in the clubhouse that does reflect on him. He is the leader of the team or at least the Offense. And keeping that Offense tight is part of his job description.
Come on, Pete.........this is the kind of crap I am talking about. Here you have some good info on the BS Leon pulls and you don't say one word about it and you turn it around and put it on Charlie? 
Look, the Leon thing was WAY bigger than you guys think. It went way beyond his teammates....it went beyond his coaches......it even went beyond RAC. Dude, no one could handle him during the season. He had support from the guy who matters and that caused problems. Now, I have heard that the powers that be sat down and laid it out for Leon after the season, and you can tell that Leon is trying to say the right things, but he is Leon........so, we will see. But, the point is in concern to this thread is that you are WAY OFF if you think Leon's problems were actually Charlie's fault.
Pete, you are looking for reasons to disrespect him.......and that isn't cool.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Legend
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Legend
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I do not for the life of me understand why we need to see him play behind an improved OL with improved WR's and an improved running game before deciding hes a CAREER BACK UP ... we (well at LEAST I) KNEW that the FOLLOWING all STUNK while playing with as bad or worse talent than Frye ... Smelly ... McCown ... Wynn ... and if I cared to think I'm sure I could come up with more ... a better OL and WR play and Running game isnt going to CHANGE FRYE'S DEFENCIES .... it dont work that way ... they will mask them more but he will still have a WEAK ARM and be INNACURRATE and make some bad decisions ... Sorry but just like with SMELLY, Luke and Spurge he will be a BELOW AVG. starting QB no matter the talent around him .... just like smelly he will be a GREAT BACK UP .... thats his upside ... we should call this guy Smelly Jr. ... HORRIBLE STARTER, GREAT BACK UP ... the org. has moved on, so should u and the rest of the excuse making machine ... 
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Legend
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Hey Pete .... I'm just curious ... when DA played his 2 or 3 games ... did the OL block better and the running game produce more and the WR's all of a sudden start running the right routes??? *LOL* ... and No I am not on the DA band wagon .. I would like to see more of him to see if he is better than Frye ... but don't read this as me advocating him over Frye .. there ENTIRELY DIFFERENT QB'S .... TOTTALLY DIFFERENT SKILL SETS .... but maybe just maybe (contrary to popular belief) he could be a better seat warmer and then back up than Frye ... soon all this QB debating will be a distant memory ... WOOHOOOO ....
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He was a local boy here in Portland. Unfortunatly that meant having to watch Beaver football on the local channels. That said, I watched him through his college carreer... I wasn't impressed.
His junior year he completed 51.2% of his passes, throwing 24 int's. TWENTY FOUR! His senior year he completed 54.2% of his passes, throwing 17 int's. He threw around FIFTY interceptions in his NCAA career. He was a classic big armed over thrower. In my mind I've seen little to no improvement. Last year he threw 5 TD's to 8 int's.
Let's look at that ratio and extrapolate that out to compare them more closely to Charlie's numbers.
Derek had 117 attempts, completing just 56.4% of his passes. Average gain of about 6.7 yards. 5 td's to 8 int's.
Charlie had 252 attempts, comlpeting 64.1% of his passes. Average gain of about 9.7 yards. 10 td's to 17 int's.
IF Derek's attempts numbers were just doubled to 234 attempts, still fewer than Charlie's, we can deduce he'd also have doubled his td's and int's. Throwing 10 and 16 respectively. Derek threw an int about every 14.6 attempts made. So I would expect he'd have thrown another before reaching 252 attempts to equal Charlie's 17. Only he'd have reached it with fewer yards to show for it, and worse QB rating because of a drastically worse completion percentage ratio.
So really, what is it that you all see in Derek that I'm missing?
Diam
You obviously see something in DA as compared to CF. Can you answer the question above that I asked earlier?
I want to make it clear I could care less really who starts come opening day as long as we win. It's just I've seen enough of DA to trust CF a little more at this time.
Last edited by PortlandDawg; 06/23/07 02:01 PM.
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we should call this guy Smelly Jr. ... HORRIBLE STARTER, GREAT BACK UP ... But it's OK to annoint Brady the starter and future All-Star before he plays a down? C'mon, Diam you can't be that big a Quinn jock-sniffer...... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Legend
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Legend
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Where do u get that from??? I said i wanted to see more of DA and that he MAYBE a better QB than Charlie ... if your reffering to the question I asked Pete to ask about the WR's not running wrong routes and the OL blocking better ... it came from the fact that DA had 2 or 2.5 decent games and alot of his bad stuff happend in hos last start when the OL was at its worst al year ... at least compared to Frye ... i think DA is gonna be a CAREER BACK UP AT BEST ALSO .. that was more a statement to shine some light on the BS the excuse machine is making and no wheres near an endorsement fro DA ... otto ... *LOL* .. this has nothing to do with jock sniffing .. I dont need to see Joe Thomas play a down to know hes hands down our best LT BY FAR since our returnand that he will more than likely go down as the best LT this franchise has ever had .. I also dont need to see BQ play a down before I know he is LIGHT YEARS AHEAD of Frye and DA and quite frankly MOST OF THE STARTING QB'S in the NFL once he learns the O and his recievers and adopts to the speed of the game .. so its OK to annoint Joe but not BQ??? *LOL* .. OK then .. and PS. .. I'll take MY EYES and what they've SEEN over the last 4 years of BQ aong with my KNOWLEDGE of the game coupled with a Charlie Wies ENDORSEMENT over what ANYONE of the menZas on this board says .. I could care less what Ver's and Tabbers and Toads WORRIES ARE .. there based on a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE due to a LACK OF INFORMATION .. they'll see ... just like U ... BQ (and Joe) is(are) our FUTURE ... if u cant see that before he(they) plays a down .. thats NOT MY PROBLEM .. for Joe the future is now .. for BQ it may come opening day or at some point in the season or opening day 08 .... but make no mistake about it .. HES THE FUTURE .. and when it arrives .. all the QB Crap is gonna stop ... CAUSE WE'LL FINALLY HAVE ONE .. now won't that be a good day???
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All Pro
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and PS. .. I'll take MY EYES and what they've SEEN over the last 4 years of BQ aong with my KNOWLEDGE of the game coupled with a Charlie Wies ENDORSEMENT over what ANYONE of the menZas on this board says .. I could care less what Ver's and Tabbers and Toads WORRIES ARE .. there based on a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE due to a LACK OF INFORMATION .. they'll see ... just like U ...
BQ (and Joe) is(are) our FUTURE ... if u cant see that before he(they) plays a down .. thats NOT MY PROBLEM ..
I'll tell ya Diam, I sure hope you're right. I try to stay positive, but not everything I hear about Brady is that way. Most ND fans I know say the guy was a pretty boy product of the system and didn't have that "edge". By "edge" i mean.....it. They say his career might be best suited for modeling, lol.
So yeah, I'm not gonna go into a Brady Quinn debate. I'm behind the guy 100%. he's gonna be our QB this year or next year and prob for a couple after that like it or not, so as Browns fans we gotta be behind him.
But I just want you to know, that I've never seen you hype a player like Quinn in the past........4 years? and be prepared to eat your words if you're wrong about the guy . But if you're right, you deserve all the credit there is, cause there was no flip-flopping with you in this year's draft. You decided on your guy and you stuck with him ripping apart everybody and anybody's criticism about him. Ya even wrote a book about him  .
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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OP
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^^^^sniffing something
You're practically on Charlie Frye so I wouldn't be talking.
![[Linked Image from i4.photobucket.com]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y132/Defiantmac/nickk2.jpg) PRO-BOWLER!
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Legend
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Legend
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Is that what the kids call it now? How much does an ounce of Charlie Frye go for these days?
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All Pro
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^^^^sniffing something
You're practically on Charlie Frye so I wouldn't be talking.
No, I'm with not dumping our QB every year.
Leading Passer for the Browns
1999 - Couch
2000 - Couch
2001 - Couch - 2nd best record since return
2002 - Couch - Best Record since return - Made Playoffs
2003 - Holcomb
2004 - Garcia
2005 - Dilfer
2006 - Frye
2007 - ??
Our we going for our 6th leading passer in 6 years? Talk about stability. It's also pretty amazing that our 2 best records since the return is when we allowed a QB to be the man for a few years in a row. Not this one and done junk.
I thought Couch should have been the QB in 2003, but the media and the 'typical' fan were all behind their lover boy Kelly Holcomb. ("He had that one big game, who cares if we lost" says the media and 'typical' fan. ) Sound familiar to a certain QB that was 0-3 last year but the media and 'typical' fan are in love with right now.
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