DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Great Divide: A west coast liberal's perspective.

For the past year or so I have engaged in countless political discussions that have just gone in circles. I spoke with many of you but it was mainly 40, Arch, Eve, GM and probably a few others who I seemed to have the biggest differences with. So...for that alone and for those other Trump voters or Libertarian/Conservatives...I have heard you but, after Tuesday I AM NOW LISTENING. There is a big difference between hearing and listening. I assure you I am now listening to your voice.

For all of our political and social differences...like you, I support a crap football team AND I want the best for America. I want America to be strong and respected and I want America to be inclusive for all. What I see is a divided nation that is tearing its soul apart. I too have engaged in it and now I want to sit down and listen and have dialog with you. I will never meet you all in person but, if we did I would want to sit in the pub and have a few beers and just listen and talk. And, maybe you could do the same with me. We are both people with our own different experiences and I respect you for who you are and I hope you respect me for who I am.

While I admit, I find Trump reprehensible and offensive I hope, I truly hope, he is able to unite this country for all. He said a lot of insulting things but, I don't wish him to fail so that "those who voted can see what he is"....I know, uniting us wont come easy for him but, I do hope for the good of our nation that he can and that he is successful President.

For what it is worth, this is my liberal take on what happened on Tuesday.

I think we the Democrats and liberal progressives were arrogant. I am including myself in this sentence. We were arrogant to think we would win. Arrogant to look down our noses at the nation. We are as much of a problem as we perceive you to be.

Firstly, I was bummed but, not surprised. A little bit about me....I was born in Delaware but moved to Pontiac, MI when I was a year old. I spent a few young years in Michigan as Dad was a GM guy. We then moved to Oklahoma for a few years as he got a job working in the oil field during the mid-70's. We then moved to Cleveland as he worked for a company that made airline brakes. My formative years were spent in Cleveland and I feel this is where I "grew up". I know and understand the blue collar, rust belt AND because of my few years in Oklahoma, I feel I understand the rural folks. I know those people who live in that great sea of red in the middle.

States like Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin were once a staunch Democratic area. However, it was more "Old Dem"...this is the land of steel mills and manufacturing. They are unionists who used to vote Dem because the Old Dem party was once the Labour party. However, these folks were and are, at heart, conservative...they still like their bible & their guns. Meanwhile the new Democratic party has become increasingly more liberal - especially here on the west coast and in NYC and Massachusetts. Those old, gritty unionists in places like Cleveland, Milwaukee and Scranton are feeling more and more pushed out of their own party. Marijuana is being legalized, LGBT rights, Gun control and Gay Marriage as well as Pro-Choice and the overly politically correct new world order is making these rust belt/rural heartland Dems feel like they have nothing in common with the contemporary Democratic party as it currently sits. They also view us new Dems as the "liberal elites" who are book smart and college educated but, who look down our noses at the "uneducated working classes".

All of this has made a civil war within the Democratic party. However, it went completely undetected as we were arrogantly far too intoxicated with what we perceived as the Republican party Civil War ripping itself apart. It was like we were watching a reality tv show and not paying attention to our own lives.

A few observations...Brexit foreshadowed what happened on Tuesday but, many liberals in America just mocked and ridiculed it while in reality it was the writing on the wall. All the issues that boiled to the top in the UK have come back and reared their head in the US. The silent majority came out on Tuesday and they threw a huge monkey wrench in the machine and completely and royally fubared it! That loud voice demands to be heard.

Secondly, I think this is a wake up call to the Democrats. The ripping apart of the party as I detail above plus...many of the far left hardcore Bernie Sanders supporters were horrible about Clinton during the Democratic nomination process. I read things on my own social media posted by far left Bernie people that were as bad, if not worse, than what the Republicans were saying. I argued on many occasions with the far left only to be told by people about her flaws and that "Trump will never win, no way". The hardcore "Bernie or Bust" folks also reluctantly supported her. Again, I got into numerous debates telling those people that she could become our nominee and we need her to be strong as we knew what the Republican party would do to discredit her. I firmly believe the very far left, "liberal elite" arrogantly weakened her as a candidate and many of that group now shoulder a lot of the blame. What I see instead is a lot of these same folks who were as horrible about her as the Republican party were are now in bogus mourning about the results and trying to point fingers at others without looking themselves in the mirror.

This is yet, another reason why that huge "red wall" from Idaho to Florida and Utah to Pennsylvania were protesting about. And the Democratic party completely and arrogantly ignored and looked down at them all. Shame on them and shame on me for not wiping the fog off my glasses. I thought I saw it but, I live in a liberal bubble so, I got suckered into it. I apologize and again...I AM NOW LISTENING TO YOU.

But, I also do not believe Sanders would have won on Tuesday. That sea of red was louder than a Motorhead concert and it's bright red was burning to my eyes. I don't think Elizabeth Warren is the right choice either. She is angry, east coast liberal who will alienate many. The Dem party as it stands needs to find a good progressive Dem from the rust belt...maybe a Biden type figure....somewhere from St. Paul, Allentown, Toledo, Milwaukee. Somewhere. Somebody who understands the people, and can talk to them rather than down to them but, also somebody who can also talk to the west coast/Boston liberal.

Lets also not forget that the "Ralph Nadar effect" came into play. Those states that were very close and the small percentage who voted for 3rd party (Gary Johnson or Jill Stein) took between 3-8% of the vote that ultimately hurt Clinton. If she had won PA and MI it would have been neck and neck but, mathematically I believe she still could have won even without Florida. I still firmly believe we need a legit 3rd or 4th party that is viable to get 25-33.3% of the vote to shake things up properly. But, this polling 3-7% crap is just destructive to the process.

We are a huge country. Portland, Oregon is like a different country than Jackson, Mississippi. Literally. We are also an incredibly divided nation...race, class, gender, education, secular/non-secular, liberal, conservative etc. I saw it written somewhere that this was the "Budweiser vote" vs "Starbucks vote". That sounds silly but, it is very true. The middle of our country feels completely devalued and insulted by the west coast and Wash DC up to Boston. That sea of red in the middle is a huge rural area with pockets of rusty blue collar cities or cattle towns that grew large due to the railroad. The folks here are salt of the earth, hard workers. Meanwhile, Boston, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco are full of overly hip, young, too cool for their own good, college educated, politically correct "liberal elites" pushing for too many changes too quickly and they are those who voted Trump are finding it hard to deal with and insulted that they are being arrogantly mocked for their education and class.

I do fear, that he is a con-man, Trump made many promises on his campaign....and it was bought hook, line and sinker. He campaigned as the anti-establishment candidate but, if he appoints New Gingrich to his cabinet he is as establishment as Clinton. He said he would hire a prosecutor and put her in jail. He wont. I don't believe he cares about that coal mining town whose mine was closed. This guy lives in an ivory tower in NYC. So, in the end he may well turn out to be the same liar that he accused Hillary of being. But, I hope he doesn't and I hope I am proved wrong. I truly do. Because, I don't care about eating humble pie...I want us to be united together as a country, again.

In short, all of the uncertainty, disbelief, shock and anger that the British experienced with Brexit....Large populated cities in America are now going through that with this election. Yet, when the British went through their turmoil it just became late night tv jokes or jokes on our facebook wall. The digital pollution and mockery has become disgusting to me and most of the "liberal elite" who say they care are just facelessly typing that they do. If people truly cared they would get up off their rear and go to North Dakota, go to Washington DC, go to the Peace Corps and truly make that difference. Posting on Facebook isn't going to change anything. It just allows more anonymous typing and talking over and down to people with little true dialog and it perpetuates this elitism.

One more thing I also realized or had a fleeting thought on....many of the silent majority who voted Trump were once a generation that danced with flowers in their hair, took acid and protested the war and for social change. In the 80's these people got love drunk on their own greed and now they are every bit the very essence they once protested against. The 60's created some of the greatest pop music in the world but, what a crock that generation turned out to be. Don Henley once said "I saw a dead head sticker on a cadillac"....exactly.

Sorry for the rant and the ramble....I hope this helps you digest from rusty belt liberal what I see happened. But, I'm also still trying to process it all.

I have heard you all and I am now listening. No more insults or endless arguing. I want to move together for the good our nation.

With respect,

PDXBrownsFan

Trump will no more keep all of his promises than any other canidate would. Reality in always harder to deal with than what you dream and hope to do.

I think most people voted for trump because they believe he is more capable of creating jobs, lower the national debt, and will not go to war with Russia just because OPEC wants us too so they can have their gas line through Syria take away russia's monopoly on Europe.

I don't think many people actually like Trump at all. Yet many people are very anti Hillary and her corrupt policies. Bernie would have been a better candidate and more electable even though he is a socialist and not a democrat.

I also think trump won a LOT of black voters over because he actually talked with them instead of AT them and they came out in droves to vote for him in Michigan.

I for one will hate the damage Trump will do to the environment but I think getting rid of our debt and fixing the trade deficits that are ruining our non college jobs is key to fixing the USA right now.

If only I could ever get a candidate that is smart about business and care about education and protecting the environment. I'd vote for that person no matter what party they were in.

Just finished reading your above post, PDX.

No need for a reply (or "counter-reply") from me.

Just wanted to let you know that you didn't spend the last hour or two composing the above post for naught.

At the very least, that makes two of us. Me and ROD.

(referee-on-duty)

I read it too.

I also will not reply because you are in no shape for it.
You can't handle the Truth right now!(kidding)

Thanks rockyhilldawg. Regarding my long post...actually, I have been emailing family and friends in England who don't understand the complexities of our diverse nation and land. So, I initially wrote them and then decided to post it here with a few tweaks here and there. I know it is long and rambling but, those of us who have been engaged in these election threads have spilled many, many words over the past year. I felt it was only appropriate to post my own thoughts here with you all.

I truly hope and want to move forward with all of you. Even with our profound differences we can still be united for the good of our country and as the American people all trying to navigate through this crazy thing called, life.

People are hurting, and scared, and angry.

Trump saw it. Hillary (and the Democrat Party) did not.

If I was in charge of the Democrat Party, I would be very worried, not only about the Presidency ...... but also the fact that they gained almost nothing in the House and Senate .... and they lost even more at the state level in so many more states. 2018 could be absolutely devastating to Democrats, as they have something like 2/3 of the seats in the Senate that are up for election.

I also think that we saw an electorate who rejected the idea of a welfare state, and really just want opportunities. They want jobs. They want to be able to support their families with good paying jobs. They see the vacuum that is sucking jobs and money away from our country, and they either have lost their jobs, or fear that they are next. Democrats proposed a lot of free stuff, but so many people in the midwest just want opportunities to do for themselves. I don't think that the Democrat party sees this, and it has cost them.

Obama is an inspirational speaker, and people like him personally. However, many of his policies were unpopular with a lot of people. Clinton was, basically, a promise of a continuation of his policies, and even an expansion of his policies, but without his charisma.

Trump was a flawed candidate, in so many ways. The fact that he won should be a huge wake-up call for the Democrats. However, I believe that they will look to the popular vote, and be encouraged to stay on the same path they've been on.

There are so many other things I could point to, but these are just a few that popped into my head right now.

I think people in the rust belt just want to work and be left alone. Trump promised them the stale ideas of manufacturing while HRC ignored the Midwest, probably talking to a mirror like the evil Queen in Snow White

People need to remember that Trump brought many many Democrats with him. He was elected by Republicans, Democrats, and those of no party, many who never voted before.

I cannot speak for every Democrat or liberal, however, I agree with this statement and I hope this election makes us all soul search. As somebody who does lean to the left I have my own priorities and agenda just as those on the right do. But, we need to talk to each other and we need to respectfully LISTEN. We haven't done a lot of that recently and I am the first to hold my hand up and admit I too am guilty. However, I firmly believe we need to get back to respectful dialog and listen to one another.

The worse thing the Democratic party can do is not learn from this and continue down the same path, point fingers at others without looking at themselves. We need to try and pick up the pieces from this internal democratic party explosion and move forward. To be clear, OldColdDawg, I do not mean you...from the very beginning you identified as a Bernie or bust person and you were true to your word. You didn't compromise. No, I am talking about those who did come over to Clinton's camp but, still vocalized what they detested about her. Yet, now they are in fits about Trump winning. Those are the folks I am now trying to work my brain around much more so than the true red conservative or the libertarians.

I admit, I also expected all of the above to be happening within the Republican party. Maybe it is. But, it didn't play out on Tuesday as I hoped or expected. I arrogantly did not see what was happening within the Dem party or, I didn't accept it as a concern worthy of getting worried about. In reality, the Sanders movement was the writing on the wall within the Dem party and many inside the Dem party ignored it. The bogus mourning I now see coming from many on the left who were reluctant to support HRC is a thin veil and can be easily seen through. Those are the folks in the party who need to accept responsibility and now help with the morning after clean-up.

It is time to unite. We have done it many times in our past. I believe we can do it now. It is also time to heal our wounds, listen to one another again and move forward. Together as the great nation we know we fundamentally are but, as a nation that has its own significant problems but, they can only be solved or improved if we are together as one.

Anyway...just my jumbled up thoughts coming to terms but, also extending a hand across the table.

Now, lift your glasses and lets get another drink...I think it's 40's round.

Another thing I find interesting is what has happened to those Companies that came out so hard for Hillary and so opposed to Trump.
Amazon, Apple, etc...

I have always felt that businesses should stay out of politics because as soon as you open your mouth you have alienated half of your customers.

Well, as it turns out, the anti Trump Corporations are being punished as we speak. Trump has done nothing to them but their stocks have plummeted since the election as people know these Corporations do not have the ear or love of this President.

It will also be interesting to see how American these companies are when Trump tells them to make their phones here, by the American People who need the jobs. When he challenges their Patriotism and the Patriotism of Silicon valley for not making their products and services here!

I've rehashed this and the democratic problem has been and always will be getting them out to vote. Over 6 million more people voted for Obama over Hillary. Granted, being a black president helped, but people hated Hillary. I think Trump had less votes than Romney and McCain and still won.

Companies like Apple and Amazon don't NEED America, but it will hurt their bottom line. However, the companies who will fold are the ones a tier below. Don't have much national regconition and need the American market. Apple and Amazon are global, the other companies aren't.

Lowest turnout since 2000. Democrats need to stop running neoliberals like Gore, Kerry and Clinton.

Nobody had answered the question on how a guy who WILLINGLY shipped his jobs to china is gonna somehow force companies to bring their jobs back to America.

Easy, that guy was a smart Businessman.
This guy is a smart President of the United States.

And, if so are the American people willing to pay more for things made in the USA? The workers are going to be paid more so, it will either drive up costs or cut into profits. Will the greedy companies choose instead to rake in less profit and keep the cost as they are by hiring US employees? We shall see on that one.

Right?

Will China begin fully raiding American companies for their intellectual property because companies aren't manufacturing there?

That's fine, but will you guys show up at the primaries in 2 years?

Reps are called the "Party of No." Will Dems earn the title as being the party of "All talk, no action?"

Personally, yes. However Democrats have rarely been able to turn up at midterm elections.

That's right. Are they loyal Americans or are they citizens of the world? Are they here for the superior Patent Laws and stable government in this Nation of Laws or are they here to suck our blood? Perhaps we will look with a tilted eye as they buy other companies or look for mergers. Perhaps we will support any competitor who's products ARE made in Murica. Perhaps we will pay more for loyal Americans.

I could have fun with this stuff all day, wonder what Trump will do?

And that's on them.

They want progressive candidates and policies past? Don't just show up every 4 years.

This is just my opinion but I would guess, priorities. When he was trying to be profitable, he found the way to be most profitable, as a businessman, his success depended on it. His success now depends on growing the American economy so he will have to take a different tact. I know that doesn't answer the "how" part of the question, but that is my opinion on the "why"...

I could ask you the question, if the urban poor in America is such a priority to Hillary, why does the Clinton foundation spend almost 70% of it's money on programs overseas? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with helping people in developing nations... but if you are going to stand on a stage and tell me you are going to do everything you can to help the urban poor standing in front of you but you send millions and millions of dollars to help those in India and Africa, that could have helped feed and clothe my family standing right here, then why should I believe you?

Because we have first world problems.

I understand the reasoning behind helping Africa and India and such, especially when it's a foundation.

And she's done a ton of work throughout her career of helping people here in America. That's how she started.

And IMO, that isn't comparable at all when talking about business.

You said before that people vote and do things based off their own interest.

So why should I expect Trump to fix a system him and his homeboys use all the time?

Will his kids bring The companies jobs back to America from China?

Who by the way, are the kids of the father who use illegal workers and refused to pay his contractors.

It's not adding up.

On topic:

PDX, I hear what your saying.

But let me clear on something. This country has always been moderates who lean a bit to the left or the right.

This far right/far left divide is very recent.

I'm dead ass serious when I say I refuse to stoop to the level of the Tea party.

So if the far left tries some crap like nominate Warren in 2020, then imma pull a Bernie bro and stay home.

Or write in Harambe.

Umm... that would be every two years. lol

I would recommend you read this and send it to your friends in England if you like. I think it does a very good job of explaining some things. Keep in mind, this is just one guys opinion.. a guy who voted for Hillary keep in mind...

The opinion of one gay, Muslim, Pakistani, immigrant

but he says what I have said for many years... if people talked to each other more, if they communicated with people who are not like themselves more, they would come away with a different understanding.

Good post PDX.

Just some quick thoughts. (I don't have the ability to lay everything out there as well as you did.)

My parents were Democrats until they passed. They were blue collar / union. My older sisters were democrats until the last 12-15 years. One as recently as 4 years. I was a Democrat 4 years into Bill Clinton although I have voted for Dems in some local elections. The Democratic party...the party of JFK and of when I was younger no longer exists. It's been hijacked.

I posted in another thread that the Trump phenomena dismantled two parties in this election. He may have created the beginnings of a "third party". It isn't going to be rainbows and unicorns between Trump and the House. They may start with working on the common issues, but Trump was a Dem before he was whatever he is now and when the old GOP starts wanting to push the uncommon ideas, you might raise an eyebrow.

I get the cynicism of those on the left for Trump. I think many on the far right have some of the same cynicism, to be honest. To those who question him getting some of the old guard on his staff, what do you want him to do? I don't think I can be Secretary of State. You do need some experience in there somewhere. Surround yourself with knowledgeable experienced people, make sure you have a devil's advocate and then make the best decision. But you need loyalty. Young QB with committed veteran backup, but be your own person and keep your word if the House will allow it. Don't shred the Constitution.

I had other thoughts, but work interrupts....oh well.

Agreed that the majority in this country are moderates. IF the Democratic party tried to push Warren as the 2020 candidate it could be the death of our party. She is angry and I do not see her as a uniter. But, I say that after a very raw defeat and after taking time to lick the wounds and realize this defeat was as much as a red revolt as it is an internal civil war inside our party. Who knows where the party will be in 2020 or, where a post-Trump America will be.

Warren is the Left version of Trump. There's a reason she is almost as admired as Bernie.

fwiw some of the biggest liberal members of Congress come from the Midwest.

Nobody on here ever talks about Sherrod Brown being as liberal as Bernie and he's in our backyard.

Really good article, and it's very similar to two others I've read recently. A lot of the same points are made about how a lot of middle America is ignored by the press and politicians. And if they think Americas has different problems that what the press thinks, then they are just labeled "racist, ignorant bigots".

He's saying don't just show up only for Presidential elections.

For the people who wanted the media to admit they were wrong about the election watch this.

Especially around 4:00-5:00.

If anyone knows how, its him ... just like with the tax code ... he knows why he did it and therefore he knows how to fix it ...

Any of u libs have a business bone in your bodies? ...

I like YOUR stylE DiamDawg!

Nice overall post.

I disagree with a few things, but I bet that doesn't surprise you.

Regardless - I have a sense that the election was not an endorsement of Trump, but rather an indictment of Clinton. That's just my take.

As well, I know most of the citizens of this country are considered "urban" (last definition I read was "urban" is considered any town/city with over 50,000 population.) Myself, I don't agree with that definition, but when I googled it, that's what I found.

I think the "urban" areas are pretty much dem/liberal. Maybe not by huge margins, but I think at least by small percentages. Again, I'm going off the "urban" being towns/cities of 50,000 plus.

My guess is "rural" America is very much right leaning. I won't say republican - but more conservative.

And I will say I def. feel - this is ME - that rural America gets over looked for too much of the time. (take it for what it's worth: a white male, college educated, self employed small business person. Emphasis on "small")

I'm going to stop now. I think, and feel, a lot more. But I need some time to process how I say it.

Arch, I would like to hear more from you. Like I said at the end of my long ramble...I am still trying to process it all and those were just thoughts off the top of my head. I would like to get your take. This is my way to help me understand and comprehend a nation I feel is on the precipice and I recognize I played my part in getting it there and now I want to do my part to help bring it back from the edge.

Again, I may be liberal in my beliefs but, I do want to listen to the other side. I think it is the least we can do. Peaceful protests are one thing but, staying angry, rioting/smashing and building up internal hatred for "the other" isn't going to solve anything. It will just help push us over the edge, which is the last thing we need.

I think what surprised most is how high the percentage of black people voting for Trump was. Dems always assume if your black that your vote belongs to them. In this election black voters had enough of the empty promises and snapped.

Trump went after the Black Vote HARD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP8Je_T6o3A
Hillary didn't because she assumed it was hers.

Tired of the broken promises of democrats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN8q4rf5Tr0

They like his frankness even if they don't like what he might say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Iq-2f-sbs

They know the issues they care about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFSIbaSL878

I have to admit I was shocked by some of these videos. I was also very proud to see black people being active and informed since most of my personal life experience has been the opposite. I mean I never knew a black person growing up who was not a democrat. Trump went after the black vote and they showed they understood the issues and voted accordingly. BRAVO and it makes me proud to call myself an American. Trump was already making America great again even if he had lost.

It makes me wonder why Dems never have the balls to reach in to areas in the middle of America where whites have struggled under republicans.

Do you guys remember Hillary never visiting Louisiana during the floods? Even AFTER everything was cleaned up and it wouldn't have been as difficult giving her security? I feel that was just a knock on her. I know some would call it a publicity stunt, but her husband went to places like that. Maybe Bill was fake about caring for victims of disasters, but he at least tried to sell it. Hillary wasn't going to bother reaching a Red state. That was a summary on her as a candidate. Trump ran a populist campaign and went after the blue wall. Hillary was too strategic and people knew it.

I bashed the hell out of Hillary for picking Kaine because of the same reason. Kaine was purely to help her win Virginia. If she picked Warren or Bernie she would have got apathetic voters to the polls. Trump ran a campaign as a guy you'd have a drink with (even though it was a complete front) but Hillary came across as a scheming robot. Who do you think your average Joe relates better to? I think people expected Hillary to have baggage, but she showed zero authentic human emotion her entire campaign. That was the nail in the coffin.

Very nice post bro. We disagreed on who should be President. We disagree on religion, hell we might agree on the next 10 subjects that come up. If I disagree with somebody I am not shy about letting them know. If I agree with somebody I am also not shy about letting them know. I am anything but PC with folks. You won't see any 5,000 word replies from me ever, but you will see a lot of short and to the point replies.

As far as that drink in a PUB. It would be an honer if we get to do that one day. As many folks on the board can tell you. I have met a lot of them at Bars, restaurants, training camp, tailgating and enjoyed the pleasure of their company. I don't believe you will find even one who speaks bad about me once they have met me in person.