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This is encouraging and depressing st the same time.
It's encouraging because I wonder how many times tour WR were open deep, meaning they were burning people.
It's depressing because we don't have a healthy QB to get them the damn ball.
No wonder hue looks pissed every time they show him on the sideline. He's watching our WR burn defensive backs and our QB's aren't cutting it.
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Yeah, it's hard to look at that last screen cap and conclude, "damn, why didn't we run more crossing routes!"
One of many frozen images won't tell the story of the game, but that one is a doozy.
Either way, I appreciate the posts with those captures.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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That big hole in the middle on the third pick?
A good QB would've took off and slid
Last edited by Swish; 11/23/16 05:58 PM.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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3-17-PIT 45 (11:54) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler pass deep right intended for 19-C.Coleman INTERCEPTED by 25-A.Burns [91-S.Tuitt] at PIT 4. 25-A.Burns to PIT 4 for no gain (19-C.Coleman).  
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1-10-CLE 22 (2:22) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler sacked at CLE 15 for -7 yards (91-S.Tuitt).  
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Pretty good protection for most of the pictures.....except for that last one of the Greco sack (presumably the play(s)). He had a bad game, but think he's played pretty damn well this year considering he lost guys on either side of him.
Not a fan of Kessler as a starter. Holds the ball too long. Already rattled. Little. As a backup, I think he can be a solid piece.
Hot take-- Cam Erving is getting better.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Yup, Greco didn't have his best outing vs the Steelers. But, net-net he's be good.
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Need to let mac see some of those pockets the OL gave Cody.
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Need to let mac see some of those pockets the OL gave Cody. I was thinking the same thing. Even the sack Greco gave up looked like pretty good protection for a while. I wonder how much time went by on that one?
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Man, 8 man protection ........when the Steelers brought 4? That makes it hard to get a receiver open. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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No wonder hue looks pissed every time they show him on the sideline. He's watching our WR burn defensive backs and our QB's aren't cutting it. Hue's not the only one looking pissed... This makes the drafting of Cody even more questionable.. The plans are RG3... Knowing his durability..Taking a risk..Yep one game and done.. McCown...Seen it...like groundhog day...One game and done.. So lets draft a guy who is known for short accurate passes... Yeah he'll make a great back up for an Offense that wants to throw the deep ball.. He can be used on a short term basis... Pun intended... I wanted Cardale Jones..at least he can throw long...let the receivers run under it...instead of stopping and going back for it.. Oh wait..they don't do that because it's never thrown that far..To even run back to... SMH!! 
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P1-Under throws Pryor on a hitch and go
P2-Steelers dropped 8 vs a 2 man route, Cody "holds" the ball and scrambles to create a pass to Coleman which he drops
P3-Underthrows and is off target on a go route to Coleman INTERCEPTION
2 Vertical routes in the 1st 3 dropbacks to start off the game
In this game, Cody is attempting there vertical shots but isn't showing the accuracy you want....
At the same time it is clear that Hue/Pep aren't working other concepts (possibly higher efficiency concepts) vs 8 man box-Center field FS they are trying to go downtown.
But in regards to deep ball accuracy Cody is not off to a good start in this game.
Last edited by edromeo; 11/24/16 03:06 AM.
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Man, 8 man protection ........when the Steelers brought 4? That makes it hard to get a receiver open. it's sad when you have to resort to that ... smh
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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He underthrew 3 or 4 o his shots down the field ... i think he underthrew every one of them ...
My guess that was a combo of 3 things ...
- lack of arm strength
- wind
- throwing it TO LATE .. thats the one where he can improve .. i've said it since this discussion started a month ago (and why hue screwed this up .. u can't force him or anyone to learn how to "anticipate" and read a D ... thats a PROCCESS that Hue tried to rush ...) ...
Only way Cody will ever throw a "good" out, 20 yarder down the seem or DEEP BALL is for him to "anticipate" the throw and get rid of it much quicker than others ...
He needs to understand the D ... his routes and he needs to READ THE D and know where to get it QUICKLY ...
He simply doesn't have the arm to put the zip on the ball or the ability to chuck it 50 yards down the field w/o an "arc" ... Cody is very smart ... not that smart ... no rookies are ...
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He underthrew 3 or 4 o his shots down the field ... i think he underthrew every one of them ...
My guess that was a combo of 3 things ...
- lack of arm strength
- wind
- throwing it TO LATE .. thats the one where he can improve .. i've said it since this discussion started a month ago (and why hue screwed this up .. u can't force him or anyone to learn how to "anticipate" and read a D ... thats a PROCCESS that Hue tried to rush ...) ...
Only way Cody will ever throw a "good" out, 20 yarder down the seem or DEEP BALL is for him to "anticipate" the throw and get rid of it much quicker than others ...
He needs to understand the D ... his routes and he needs to READ THE D and know where to get it QUICKLY ...
He simply doesn't have the arm to put the zip on the ball or the ability to chuck it 50 yards down the field w/o an "arc" ... Cody is very smart ... not that smart ... no rookies are ... Your post triggered something I had read a while ago on arm strength...it is older post that I found when researching arm strength and its importance... your comment on timing is what stood out. Not sure how relevant this still is as I am no guru on QB's, but I like the part about early vs. late, which I seem to remember from Kosar days -- he would throw the ball to spots before the receiver would make his break. I remember watching him throw thinking "who is he throwing too and then the receiver would make a late break and hit the spot...I'm wondering if that is what Hue's frustration may be with Cody, his anticipation before the receiver looks to be open. I see a decent amount of NFL QB's make throws that look questionable but location become everything where a better throw beats better coverage. On paper stronger arm seems to make sense and overtime I hear of arm strength, I always immediately think of Jeff George for some reason. It just seems to constantly come down to a QB's timing (?) and ability to read the field to make the right throw in the right location, regardless of size and arm strength. It seems if you can find a freak at the position who can do it all, then that is rare. I think the last one drafted that comes to mind was Luck, where everyone said once in a decade or something like that. this is the article [a blog with a broken link to an old CBS Sports arcile] ON QB Arm Strength "The whole arm strength thing has gotten overplayed," said San Diego quarterback Philip Rivers, "and it starts at the combine, where the 40-yard dash is overdone. I mean, how many times do you get in that kind of stance for a 40-yard straight?
"I think arm strength certainly can help you. The more you have it can help you on certain throws and in tight windows. Ultimately, though, a lot of guys make up for it with timing -- a guy who gets the ball out of his hand quickly or who knows where to go with the football. A lot of times anticipation can make up for a guy who can throw it 80 yards.
"I've always said there's something about being able to put 'zip' on the ball -- a guy who can gun it in a window. That's certainly an asset that some have more than others. But the guy who can throw it 85 yards? I've never seen anyone get an opportunity to throw it that far. Most 'go' routes are caught between 44- and 47 yards; you're not throwing it 65 or 70 yards............
"To me," said an AFC quarterbacks coach, "you ask: Is the guy 6-2, and does he have enough arm talent -- whatever that means? From there it's retention, mental toughness, physical toughness and accuracy. Arm strength doesn't even factor into the equation. That's something the bean counters can see and talk about, but it has nothing to do with it."........
"Arm strength can definitely be overrated," said Rivers, "but it certainly can help. What it does is allow you sometimes to get away with being late. It allows you to think: 'Let me take another hitch because I can get it in there; I can throw the comeback late and make sure (a defender) is not sitting on it.'
When I asked a general manager I trust to cite the qualities he looks for in quarterbacks he listed the following: Can he make all the throws necessary? Mobility. Poise. Accuracy. And, is he a winner?
I'm still waiting for arm strength to make the cut.
Arm strength," said an NFC head coach, "is tied into the intelligence of the quarterback. If he is smart, understands defenses and anticipates his throws well -- like a Chad Pennington -- arm strength is not a big factor.
"But if he is young or not the brightest guy then arm strength is more important because he will be late on some throws and need a stronger arm to get the ball in a tighter window."......
The key deal is finding someone who can win. The knock on Dallas quarterback Brad Johnson is that he can't throw the ball downfield -- with one teammate nicknaming him "Checkdown Johnson." OK, so he can't get the ball downfield. He won a Super Bowl, and, I'm sorry, I'll take wins over style points.
I covered Hall-of-Fame quarterback Steve Young for years, and he wasn't exactly known as the Nolan Ryan of passers, either. But he completed a high percentage of passes, made smart plays, was extraordinary on the run and won.
Most of all, he won.
In fact, when the 49ers achieved their last Super Bowl in 1994, they won 13 of their last 14 games, with Young throwing 35 touchdown passes and three interceptions over that time -- including a Super Bowl-record six TD passes.
Steve Young couldn't throw a ball 50 yards from his knees. He didn't break the sound barrier with his fast ball, either. And, to the best of my knowledge, he never reached the parking lot of the L.A. Coliseum from within the stadium.
Instead, he was accurate and smart with the football, and give me that quarterback any day over Michael Vick. Is this still the case? I understand that a weaker deep throw allows topside coverage to make a play but if there are 2 safeties over the top, would that not leave the middle of the field open as a scheme?
Last edited by Dawg_Traveler; 11/24/16 01:47 PM.
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It'll always be the case ... that won't change ...
They used Young in the article ...
3 of the greatest QB's of all time ...
Manning, Joe and Brady ... Brady has a decent arm .. but nothing special .. Joe was below average in arm strength as was Manning ..
I believe the scouting report on Joe coming out of ND was that he couldn't throw the middle, deep outs ... and he couldn't .. *L* .. that didn't stop Walsh from drafting him ... that turned out pretty dang good i'd say ...
Drew Bree's is another example today ... his arm is average at best ...
I've said for years .. give me accuracy and brains first and foremost .. then i want mobility and if u have a strong arm ... thats fine .. but i'll take accuracy and brains over a strong arm all day long ...
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I've said for years .. give me accuracy and brains first and foremost .. then i want mobility and if u have a strong arm ... thats fine .. but i'll take accuracy and brains over a strong arm all day long ... With receivers and a playbook on the same page. Love seeing receivers with a great yac...
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I've said for years .. give me accuracy and brains first and foremost .. then i want mobility and if u have a strong arm ... thats fine .. but i'll take accuracy and brains over a strong arm all day long ... With receivers and a playbook on the same page. Love seeing receivers with a great yac... Joe's biggest asset IMO ... his recievers HARDLY EVER had to break stride when catching a pass from him ... THATS HUGE ..... the stat boys around here wants to run around siting completion % as a sign of accuracy ... well here's a little clue for the stat boys ... - QB's that are accurate will have a high completion % but all QB's with a high completion % aren't accurate ...
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I agree with that. Hit guys in stride.
The DB who is beat isn't slowing down to get back in to position.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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1-10-CLE 25 (:56) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler pass short left to 16-A.Hawkins to CLE 45 for 20 yards (23-M.Mitchell).  Mirrored routes (i.e half field read) double outs, pick a side. Notice the depth of the routes compared to the depth of all the previous routes. 5 yard pass 15 yard run
Last edited by edromeo; 11/25/16 08:35 AM.
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1-10-CLE 45 (:32) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler pass incomplete short right to 11-T.Pryor Sr..  Double outs again,(from snug formation) misses throw off target behind to open Pryor in the (R) flat
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3-8-CLE 47 (15:00) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler sacked at CLE 36 for -11 yards (79-J.Hargrave).  Sack. Erving gets beat; Duke is pushed back by Timmons.  Comeback routes on the outside, middle seam from the slot
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1-10-CLE 25 (4:43) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler pass short left to 19-C.Coleman to CLE 29 for 4 yards (94-L.Timmons; 28-S.Davis). No screen cap, just a WR screen to Coleman. 1-10-CLE 41 (3:44) (No Huddle) 6-C.Kessler pass incomplete short left to 19-C.Coleman.  Comeback routes on the outside. Speed out from the Slot left. Cody misses the pass high but catchable, Corey jumps gets both hands on it but drops it
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2-10-CLE 41 (3:40) (No Huddle) 6-C.Kessler sacked at CLE 30 for -11 yards (55-A.Moats).  Sack. Had Duke on a short hitch may have had a chance to hit Coleman on the deep dig behind and over the middle zone LB.
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ed: perhaps I'm simply getting "dazzled" by the screens, but I've lost focus on the point(s) you are trying to make. Please fill me in...thanks.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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ed: perhaps I'm simply getting "dazzled" by the screens, but I've lost focus on the point(s) you are trying to make. Please fill me in...thanks. Just a continuation of the OP. The discussion was about the passing game focus on attacking downfield (low efficiency) as opposed to the focus being higher efficiency catch and run style routes/concepts (identified in the OP) eg. shorter routes, drags, shallow crossers, RB iso routes etc. These screen caps are from Cody's last game and can serve to illustrate the plays and concepts the offense is actually using.
Last edited by edromeo; 11/25/16 10:26 AM.
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3RD QUARTER: 1-10-CLE 46 (13:05) 6-C.Kessler pass incomplete short left [91-S.Tuitt]. Handoff to #29 Johnson with a lateral back to #6 Kessler  Immediate pressure on the flea flicker throwback, receivers not open yet.  Cody resets has Coleman on the deep crossing route but doesn't pull the trigger, feels pressure off the right edge scrambles then throws ball away
Last edited by edromeo; 11/25/16 10:28 AM.
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2-10-CLE 46 (12:56) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler pass short right to 29-D.Johnson Jr. ran ob at 50 for 4 yards (50-R.Shazier).  1st target to a RB as the primary receiver, swing pass to Duke 3-6- (12:20) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler pass short middle to 29-D.Johnson Jr. to PIT 28 for 22 yards (94-L.Timmons; 23-M.Mitchell).  2nd target to RB as the primary receiver 5 yards pass 18 yards run. After not seeing any drag routes in the 1st half and not targeting RBs as primary's in the passing game. Looks like they made an adjustment in the 2nd half and are targeting the Duke's match-up and using the short passing game routes/concepts from the OP.
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3-8-CLE 47 (15:00) (Shotgun) 6-C.Kessler sacked at CLE 36 for -11 yards (79-J.Hargrave). Sack. Erving gets beat; Duke is pushed back by Timmons. Comeback routes on the outside, middle seam from the slot How much time from the snap til the pressure started? ... did he have 1.5 or 4 secs ... w/o that info on this one .. no clue how to split up the "blame" ...
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I am seriously impressed that some of you are actually still interested enough in this crap fest to dissect and analyze plays. The only reason I can come up with as to why I'm watching the games is that I have some sort of mental illness or an unconscious need to serve a penance for something I've done in the past.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Pretty good protection for most of the pictures.....except for that last one of the Greco sack (presumably the play(s)). He had a bad game, but think he's played pretty damn well this year considering he lost guys on either side of him.
Not a fan of Kessler as a starter. Holds the ball too long. Already rattled. Little. As a backup, I think he can be a solid piece.
Hot take-- Cam Erving is getting better.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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All he had to do was get a sense of the pocket and step up and then slide to the right looking for a WR to get open or run or dump off to Crowell and let him run! Not stay there and get sacked! The OL blocked much better than the 8 sacks indicated.
If "all" any QB had to do was the above there would never be any sacks; lol.
The defender coming off the right edge has already beat/disengaged from his blocker. I can't see how any QB should be expected to avoid that kind of pressure....especially the way you describe it making it sound like a routine play.
There clearly were some sacks that were Cody's fault but for me this one isn't one of them.
Last edited by edromeo; 11/25/16 02:47 PM.
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Where are you getting your all 22 footage from ed? is it gamepass or somewhere else?
I have been thinking about signing up for gamepass, but I hate the fact that I am enabling the NFL to gain more of a monopoly. If there is a better spot for it at a decent price, I would prefer to go there.
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Gamepass.
Its the only place I know that gives all-22.
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Gamepass.
Its the only place I know that gives all-22. Thanks for the quick reply. I was afraid of that.
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All he had to do was get a sense of the pocket and step up and then slide to the right looking for a WR to get open or run or dump off to Crowell and let him run! Not stay there and get sacked! The OL blocked much better than the 8 sacks indicated.
If "all" any QB had to do was the above there would never be any sacks; lol.
The defender coming off the right edge has already beat/disengaged from his blocker. I can't see how any QB should be expected to avoid that kind of pressure....especially the way you describe it making it sound like a routine play.
There clearly were some sacks that were Cody's fault but for me this one isn't one of them.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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...That is because you are watching too much Browns football. I know the sentence I wrote seemed to be a lot to react too... No worries, but your assumptions here are laughably off base. I don't presume to know how much non-Browns football you watch or don't watch so I would appreciate the same courtesy. Let's not assume we know what each other is doing/thinking to frame a discussion. Your comments aren't too much to react to at all. yet I see it over and over from other QBs even Wentz and Dak...it is not too difficult look at the pic you provided. Stepping up is a must in the NFL...Leteral movement is a must in the NFL. I wasn't asking for too much. I was asking for an NFL QB reaction. I could simply repost my previous statement because it still applies. (1) These screen caps are literally catching a snap in time and football is obviously not played in still frames. Unless you look at the actual play...over and over and over in real time you will never get a handle on reality of the situation. (2) When breaking down a play using stills/screen caps anything seems possible. Receivers seems open, QBs seem to have endless possibilities of options. From a still its easy to imagine well IF the QB/RB/WR does X,Y,Z THEN they could have avoided/escaped/completeled/ or whatever outcome On the play we are discussing the edge rusher was already disengaged from his blocker. IF a QB has to do when a blocker gets beat is: "get a sense of the pocket and step up and then slide to the right looking for a WR to get open or run or dump off" then there would literally be NO sacks. Again, I repeat there clearly were sacks that Cody could have avoided. I just disagree that this particular sack was an easily avoidable sack the way you make it out. We can agree to disagree on this one. Anyhow...any comment on the pass game playcalling this game? Specifically the route combinations/route concepts?
Last edited by edromeo; 11/26/16 11:32 AM.
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"No worries, but your assumptions here are laughably off base."
Laughable? You just lost a lot of credibility from me...you don't see the good QBs doing that automatically. I think you must be full of doo doo if you cannot see that. but go laugh away...thanks for the insult!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,041
Hall of Famer
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OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 4,041 |
"No worries, but your assumptions here are laughably off base."
Laughable? You just lost a lot of credibility from me... Yes. Your assumptions are laughable off base. I didn't say your POST was off base just your assumptions. False Assumption #1: That is because you are watching too much Browns football. No, eotab. I'm actually embarrassed to admit how much football I watch but suffice it say its too much and yeah its a lot more then just the Browns I'm not that much of a masochist. I have an alibi though because I'm on a fantasy football radio/podcast. False Assumption #2: I know the sentence I wrote seemed to be a lot to react too I didn't think your sentence was in anyway, shape or fashion a lot to react to. I just disagree with it. ...I think you must be full of doo doo if you cannot see that. but go laugh away...thanks for the insult! So you call me full of lol  doo doo while being upset at phantom insult you claim that I made? Lol. Okay. 
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