DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum RE: The Front Office....continued...

So you are saying Sashi was the only person in the draft room during the Browns draft?

No, he isn't saying that.

Why do you have such an obsession w/this? Let me guess.....you wanna make mac look bad.

Posts like yours are the ones I wish the mods would eliminate. They serve NO purpose other than to pick on another poster.

And because Hue was familiar with him from Cinci (and vice versa).

the FO is gonna have to make some hard choices about which positions they choose to fix in FA and the draft.

I know we restructured Desmond Bryant contract, so if he's ends up being finally healthy( a crap shoot, I know) then we can have Bryant, Shelton, and possibly draft Garrett, and have that unit as our starters.

I would target the best FA FS to play opposite of kindred. I think kindred can turn into a solid starter.

The decision to sign Collins and Pryor will be major. Will Collins stay? Or will he bounce regardless of the contract we offer him? Might be the same with Pryor.

You know, I have been critical of the plan for awhile and want to run something by you guys again.

The last few weeks, I have read the Post Game Thoughts thread and noticed that there have been a large number of posts that criticized Hue and the rest of the coaching staff. Think about that.

Before the season, a couple of us talked about that it was unrealistic to expect too much from Hue. Quite a few posters talked about things like "how good our lost free agents be if we only won 3 games," and "Hue is a QB Whisperer and is worth at least 3 more wins."

Well, I didn't agree w/that nonsense and was ridiculed for saying so. Now, I'm reading about how Hue is to blame for our lack of offensive success.

I think the problem is a lack of talent. I thought that before the season and I think it now. Yet, people are not complaining about the FO. They are complaining about Hue and the other coaches.

This transference of blame from the talent issue onto the coaching ability of our staff is but one of the problems with "the plan." As the losses accumulate, so does the criticism of the coaches.

Can you imagine what it will be like next year when we continue to lose?

Can you imagine a coaching staff surviving all those losses and public outrage?

Can you imagine how ownership is going to react to all those empty seats?

Can you imagine how hard it is to overcome a losing culture?

Can you imagine how hard it will be to attract quality free agents when this team is so putrid?

Can you imagine how it might be difficult to retain our own quality free agents?

Can you imagine that it might be extremely hard to attract other coaches if we dismiss Hue [who is well-respected by his peers]?

The plan has many flaws. It might be time to re-think things just a bit.

Swish, you are one of several people who have been talking about signing free agents next year.

Do you think the FO will? Didn't they say their strategy was to not bring in free agents and to build through the draft instead?

My hope is that they learned their lesson about being cheap asses.

Well, their jobs depend on them learning that lesson anyway, so we will see.

I agree with building through the draft. Their mistake was getting rid of virtually all the veterans, and having a team full of rookies start.

We have the money to get at least one all pro player, whatever that position is will be up to them, hopefully anywhere on defense, or the offensive line.

They don't need to spend like it's Black Friday, but one or two impact players will be enough, and then the typically depth bodies and such.

But they have to be smart about which position they address in FA. That's the biggest issue.

And if they don't spend anything at all....well...anything less than 4 games the following season, and hue might survive, but sashi and Paul won't.

Well, I'm not Swish but... I also think the FO is smart enough to know with as many draft picks as we have this year we need to bring in a few more FA this year to counter balance the sheer amount of rookies we will have. Does not mean we are not building through the draft, but we need some experience to go with that youth. And there is no way they want to go through another year next year like it was this year. So yeah I can see them signing a few top flight FAs this next yr.

I hope you and Swish are right, but I have my doubts.

Unless, they re-think things.....as I stated in an earlier post.

My biggest concern is that Hue is going to end up being a victim in this "plan."

I have my doubts as well.

But there was a glimmer of hope. They did pull the trigger on trading for Collins. The FO knows that are gonna have to make it rain to keep Collins this offseason. And they are already working on resigning Pryor.

So there's a bit of hope. I guess the biggest thing was that they weren't gonna keep players on the wrong side of 30, as well as being unproductive, or a combination of both.

If there's an all pro coming out in the market on defense, around 26-27 years old, I have a feeling they will make a play for that guy.

Same with the o line.

We will see, I guess.

Everybody's still learning on the job. We ALL knew there would be mistakes made and lessons learned. Why do we have to be OFF WITH THEIR HEAD when they do make mistakes? Everybody is a rookie this year. Let this play out over the next 2-3 years. I really don't think Haslam is going to fire anybody at least not for the next couple years.

May I ask who suggested "off with their heads?"

May I also ask if you think ignoring problems and excusing mistakes is productive?

Do you not believe in accountability and improving your performance?

I hate to be a "Sally soul smasher" but I think Hue and the FO men are going to be here for quite some time. I think their plan for continuity is in place and they will stick with it. an why not? we have to stick with something for more than just six months before we tear it all down again.

I don't blame the coaching staff. Some decisons haven't worked out, but it is like that in any year, on any team. A coach doesn't make the right call 100% of the time.


I have concernes about Horton, but agree he is short changed with his defensive talent. We have to give him a few high picks, and then next year usher him out the door if necessary.


Coaching is way over rated. Players win games.



I am a baseball guy. Some years back Sparky Anderson was asked how many games he won by making the right decision. He said none. He could only lose games. Players won games.



I agree.


Football and Basketball may be a little different on the coaching end and baseball on the situational end, but not much.

It still takes players making plays when needed.
.

I'm fine with them staying.

I'm way more concerned about the FO than Hue. I think if we give Hue some real talent, we are gonna be a real contender after a while.

But that only happens if the FO learns from the mistakes of making roster moves.

Of course I do. But you totally ignore that everyone is fairly new and mistakes are bound to happen. Off with their heads is the lashing out about somethings, whether or not it is in their control or not, we'll see how things play out in the next draft and FA. Maybe we'll turn a corner and start moving forward.

Ummmmm you do know that the Criminal couldn't give a damn right? Do you know him personally? Remember Chud...dude's about as knee jerk and shady as it gets. I'm sorry but I'm sure he probably sees this 0-16 campaign as a big hit in the billfold and if he wants to fire people, he'll do just that, no matter what the media or the fan base thinks.

Vers - i was with U before the season .. i said with Lombardi as HC .. Walsh as OC and Billicheck as DC we would be hard pressed to get to 4 w's ... i was right there with U ... one of my first posts when i started posting again was "why is Hue this QB guru?" .. like U, i saw nuttin in his past that told me .. WOW .. he's good at developing QB's .. NOTHING .. with this team I figured two wins .... i said two weeks ago this was to be expected .. its one thing to talk about it before the season .. its another to actually LIVE THROUGH IT .....

so now on to your point ....

U act like Hue had nothing to do with the plan ... like he was an innocent victim in all this ...

One of two things happend ...

A. Hue was lied to by Sashi and the THIEF before accepting the job and was promised things that never happend like being active players in FA and re-signing our own ... witch to me last year meant Schwartz .. not going to get into the other 3 with U as thats been re-hashed a million times ...

B. Hue knew the plan coming in and was a part of it and thought it was a good plan ... not only was he on board with it but a co-architect ...

If it was B ... ummm ... he made his bed, now he's laying in it ... isn't that the way it should be? Or should he be whining and crying and get our sympathy because he helped create the plan that has us where we are ... and u know i love the plan .. the execution so far .. BLAH ... and Hue has a lot of responsibility in that ...

If it was A .. Hue sure is towing the company line for someone that was lied to and put in this horrible position ...

IMO he'd be screaming bloody murder in order to get out of here if that were the case ... see Shanny .... at minimum I'm pretty sure you'd of heard of at least one crack from Hue .. either that or he's the biggest wuss ever ... I mean .. if he got lied to like that, why would he want to stick around ... how does that make sense? ..

Should the guy be fired .. HELL NO .. not even close .. but I don't understand what I perceive as this ... he got "ambushed" with this plan ...

If he didn't have his eyes wide open to this plan than he should be screaming bloody murder if for no other reason than to get out of here ... why would u want to continue to work for/with people that blatantly lied to u ...

IMO last year ... they should have signed a few 2nd and 3rd level FA's .. u can actually find some good players in those two levels at good prices as opposed to way overpaying for the "splash" players ...

Then they should not have traded down so much after the trade down to 15 ... after that they started losing quality ...

This year ... if we re-sign Collins were getting what we paid for .. after watching him allow Odell to score while jogging and then completely giving up on the play ... i could care less how talented he is ... HE WOULD NEVER BE ON MY TEAM ... crap .. not u, but others were applauding trading our punter for not trying to make a tackle in the PRE-SEASON .. now these same menzas are saying .. MAKE IT RAIN TO RE-SIGN Collins .. Please ...

This year i would like to see some of those 2nd and 3rd tier guys signed ... and have us actually use our four top 52 picks on players ... and get a difference maker at 1 ... I would not go for any "splash" players in FA at this point ... for me, its too early ... if they want to overpay and re-sign Pryor I'd be fine with that ... Collins after yesterday .. NO WAY IN HELL ..

After we discuss this ... we can talk about Hue and his play calling and time management .. the first thing I'm going to bring up as a play calling example ..

Why has Pryor had 2 fades maybe 3 thrown to him the entire season in the red zone, specifically inside the 10 ... he's a MIS-MATCH NIGHTMARE .... with our OL and recievers ... he should one every time were in the red zone ... EVERY SINGLE TIME ... he's had a total of TWO maybe 3 ...

But lets discuss this "Hue is a victim of what is at least partially his plan" phenomenon that i don't quite understand ...

I am not completely ignoring it. In fact, I am not ignoring it at all.

We all make mistakes. I just hope they learn from their mistakes. I also think they need to re-evaluate the plan because most of the things I mentioned in the thread where I kept saying....."Can you imagine..." are factors that could help derail the plan. Not individually, of course......but taken in totality.......those problems could be tough to overcome.

Again, I just think they need to re-think things a bit. It would be a shame if they don't get enough time. Gotta win some games next year.

We don't get inside the 15 that often, that's why he doesn't see as many fades, although he was interfered with yesterday on that attempt.

Hue has called some head scratchers - the fake punt with Duke getting the snap being a glaring example, and there's been a few others, but he could be the greatest play caller in the history of football and it wouldn't matter much.

QB guru? Well he helped develop flaccid and dalton, although how much credit he deserves I don't know. But yeah I never got totally on board with him being a QB "guru", although he deserves two more seasons at the least, if for no other reason than we'd look like chumps again.

I agree, we gotta win some games next year. I think were close in thinking the same way. I'm just more of a homer.

Well said.

Peace, bro.

Oh I think the owner does give a damn. I think he gives an almighty damn.not sure why else he would be turning red during the games. Do I know him personally? No. Do you know him personally? Hopefully he has learned that turning over the FO every year just won't work, and now he is in this thing for the long haul...maybe...just maybe. and despite the media and fan base calling for a change, he won't budge this time...idk for sure, but then nobody knows for sure because it hasn't happened yet. time will tell.
me personally, I think this is what we got for the next few years at least. as well we should be.

Well, mac told GM he was wrong when he said that mac didn't know who was in the war room, and dummied up when GM asked him who was in there. I think a lot of people here would like to know that answer.

Wait. You saying Mac doesnt know who was in the war room?

sorry guys the only pic I could find...

The problem is, if a rookie player makes a rookie mistake, you lose a game. If a lawyer pretending to be a rookie gm makes a rookie mistake, you lose for several years.

What FA is going to want to come here? Going to be hard to plug holes if no veterans are willing to come here. Sashi has made things worse.

I was able to find out that there were 7 employees in the draft room of whom the article identified Kovash and Depo as two of them. Assuming that Sashi and Hue were also in there, that leaves 3 as unidentified. You fill out the rest...

in the pic I provided I see Hue and I believe it's Sashi

You forgot Hal 9000 was there too.

Winning itself forgives many mistakes. It also heals problems that nothing else can.

Not giving any passes for losing every bloody game; FO needs to apply analytics to itself before we screw up another draft. Our blunders demand we do some serious triage about position needs and especially most pressing priorities. And at least some FA help to win. By now, we can see progress, but must judge whether it is enough to be in line with what we expected. Not HOPED it would be. And it would help my comfort level if some better football guys could judge our horseflesh in this herd and in this draft.

My point is, this FO needs to prove that they can and that they have learned from mistakes already made and at the very least are trying not to repeat the. It is an area of weakness. Spare me spinning and lies. I need players , not pressers.

That is all.

j/c

I don't understand how anyone can be surprised - or overly upset - at what has transpired this year. We completely tore it down and started building it up...we knew that...we know/knew what that means/meant.

We needed an extraordinary year of good/lucky/fortuitous breaks and healthy players to garner some wins. We got the exact opposite of what we needed in that regard.

The plan - good or bad - cannot be "judged" on what has transpired thus far. Too many factors that are out of their control combined with the known factors that WERE of our own purposeful doing led us to this point.

If we made one of those many missed fields goals against the Dolphins what would it matter? So we'd be 1-11 instead of 0-12. Whoop-dee-do. Maybe we'd get a cookie? However, we would STILL be just as bad either way and just as unable to thoroughly evaluate the plan thus far.

IMO there is NOTHING that has occurred this year to cause me to deviate from the plan. NOTHING. If we get 1-2-3-4 wins what difference does that make other than to make the pundits eat a turd and make the fans feel better? I know what this team is regardless of how many wins they might squeak out.

I don't like it...but I understand it...I know what I see of where we were and where we now are. I'm surprised at ONLY two things: 1.) The ridiculous number of injuries we've sustained; & 2.) How good Pryor has looked. That's it. Nothing else is a surprise to me. If I HAD to pick a #3) It would be the play of Shelton.

You wanna be a fan of a team who SHOULD be PO'd at "the plan"?


Look at the Jacksonville Jaguars. They entered the 2016 free agency period with the most cap space in the NFL. After signing seven players, they are 2-9...WITH a "franchise" QB and it looks like they are about the cut bait with their head coach.

Look at the Bengals. They were a potential Super Bowl team LAST year. Their fans were expecting to make the playoffs this year. They are 3-7-1 with one of those whooping three wins against us...WITH a "franchise" QB. Where is Sanu and Jones for the offense that now can't score points? FO "let them walk". They too are rumored to cut bait with their head coach.

I don't know exactly what IS the plan...I have no idea whether it's a good plan...I have no idea whether the powers-that-be can pull off the plan...but I do know that NO ONE can definitively say that it should be changed or scrapped at this point...regardless of whether we win a game. Culture change is tough when you need 53+ guys to make it work. It's going to take time...we know/knew that...maybe my surprise #4) would be at the number of fans who either forgot where we were/are or are choosing to now be surprised at where we are today.

FA help sounds great, but when you have to overpay for mediocre talent does it really help?

You have to have something to sell if you are going to attract free agents. After this season we don't have much. I don't expect anything more than bargain shopping this offseason. Maybe if we get some wins next year we could entice someone the year after.

We've got a deep hole to dig ourselves out of. We'll have to do it through the draft and development. I hope to see more of the latter in year two.

How the team comes out of the bye will be telling. Can Hue keep them motivated through all the adversity? Injuries torpedoed an already tall task. Cardale spoiled some of us as far as expectations for 3rd string QBs.

Hopefully next year we'll see the results of some "No pressure, no diamonds" rather than a bunch of crushed rocks.

...is there anyone who isn't disappointed?

The rest of the AFC North just collectively stood up waiving their hands.

I am disappointed, but not surprised. I didn't expect us to go through 5 QBs, and to have had to replace 60% of our OL, though.

I do think that the defense is starting to show signs of developing. The are not perfect by any stretch, but they have improved over the pact couple of weeks. (scoring-wise, anyway) However, the offense is not scoring, so wins are not a part of the equation.

I do think that we will win 1 game ... somehow. That falls short of my prediction os 3 or 4 wins, but again, who saw the injury situation we've had?

I never said that, Diam.

I do think the plan was put in place before Hue got hired. Heck, Jimmy the Crook talked to the 76ers guy. I would say Sashi helped formulate the plan.

I don't know because I haven't read anything about it, but Hue probably signed off on it. I don't think he was lied to.

But bro........you're a smart guy even if you can't spell and your grammar sucks...LOL.

Tell me, who are going to be the first casualties if the Browns continue to lose almost every game the rest of this year and continue that for the first half of next season? Jimmy the Crook? Sashi? Depo?

Or, is it going to be a coordinator or two? Perhaps an OL coach? Perhaps even Hue?

Don't miss the forest for the trees, bro.

Because no way will it help this team to start firing coaches AGAIN!!!

Cleveland Browns: The front office went too far with rebuild

by Joel W. Cade

The Cleveland Browns experimented with using analytics in order to rebuild the organization. However, they overlooked one very important detail.

The Cleveland Browns embarked upon a baseball-style rebuild entering into the 2016 football season. It was an experiment not only in the use of analytics for projecting future football performance but also an experiment in whether or not a rebuild of this style can work in the NFL.

After last season, Jimmy Haslam, owner of the Cleveland Browns, went on a journey to see how successful professional sports organizations are managed. He then found a man in Paul DePodesta who has experience successfully tearing down and rebuilding professional sports franchises.

He hired Sashi Brown as the executive vice president for football operations. With him, it was assumed that a full on analytical approach to team-building was underway. The duo of Brown and DePodesta even hired a coach whose major asset was the ability to motivate and get the absolute best out of players.

Once the trio of the Browns Construction Company was in place, the rebuild began. The front office began stripping the roster of older and mid-range veterans whose salary did not match their level of play. In their place, the Browns sought to bring in younger players who could learn on the job with minimal decline in production.

Gone from the roster were players like Donte Whitner, Paul Kruger, Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, etc. The list is almost as long as the number of starting quarterbacks for the Browns over the past 16 seasons.

All seemed to be going as planned. Without a strong analytics base already established in the NFL, the Browns decided to put analytics at work to fill out vision that head coach Hue Jackson brought to the team. The front office did not dictate schemes, styles or approaches. Instead, they let Jackson set the tone for the team and employed analytics to help identify players that would succeed at the NFL level.

The success of the player personnel approach has yet to be determined. However, in this past draft, the Browns have found starters in the first, second and third rounds. Players acquired in the later rounds are still projects to be developed but are contributing nonetheless.

The plan seemed to be working fine. But then a harsh reality that nobody in the front office anticipated set in. The NFL does not have a developmental league. This fact may seem trivial but it is vital to understanding why the Browns are struggling this season.

Most professional sports organizations have a developmental league. Major League Baseball has a tiered minor league system. The same for the National Hockey League. The National Basketball Association is closest to the National Football League. It has a developmental league; but, it is not the main impetus for player development. Player development occurs often in European leagues and other leagues around the world. Only the NFL does not have a developmental league.

The lack of a developmental league means that most of player development occurs at the NFL level. Players often come to the NFL having played in a spread offensive system which does not develop players for the NFL. It is argued that college football is not a developmental league and does not bear the responsibility for developing players for the NFL. Players often arrive at the NFL level unprepared to play NFL-style football.

Paul DePodesta’s experience in team-building has come in organizations that have developmental leagues. Thus, during the initial tearing down phase of a rebuild, there are always professional ready players in the minor leagues simply needing a chance to compete. Those players are sufficient to keep the organization respectable while the front office works to infuse high-end talent into the organization.

The architects of the Browns rebuild failed to take into consideration the level of NFL-ready players actually coming out of college football. In baseball terms, it is the equivalent of drafting high school and college kids and immediately playing them at the major league level. It rarely happens because those players are rarely ready to compete at that level. There are years of player development that must occur.

The same is true for the NFL. Only in his second season is Danny Shelton starting to play like an elite player. Christian Kirksey, who is among the league leader in tackles, is in his third season. Players need time to be developed to play at the professional level.

The Browns front office realized the lack of readiness for rookies to play in the NFL too late. They had already let all the above mentioned players leave. In their place are a lot of younger players who still need years to develop in order to be NFL quality players.

To help the Browns next season, the front office needs to sign mid-level veterans, who may cost more, to make this team respectable while developing young talent. The front office needs to realize that player development happens at the NFL level. In order to successfully develop a player, there needs to be a model of how a professional approaches their job and how successful NFL football is played.

Right now the coaching staff is being asked to develop players and win football games. It is too big of a burden for the staff to carry.

The Browns rebuild was an experiment from the start. Nobody anticipated just how unprepared rookies are to play in the NFL. The Browns paved the way for future rebuilds to take this fact into account. In the meantime, they need support the staff and rookies by bringing in some players who can play (even if they are only mediocre players) to help speed this rebuild up.

Nonetheless, it looks like the experiment will continue and succeed. The abysmal 2016 season is a bump in the road. The future is bright for the Browns but the future may be further off than originally hoped.