DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ray Horton out as Defensive Coordinator

Alright Hue. Why did you hire Horton in the first place?



Alright Hue. Have you evaluated yourself? Your offense was ranked 30th in yards and 31st in scoring, despite the fact that there were a couple of defensive TDs scored.

Let's see how much worse the defense was.

Hmmmmm........the Browns were 31st in yards and 30th in scoring.

So, why should you keep your job while Horton lost his?

Freaking Browns are clueless.

I've been wanting the Browns to switch to a 4-3 for years. Finding the right pieces for a 3-4 always seems to be challenging.... turning DTs into DEs, turning DEs into OLBs, eliminating half the prospective linebacking class cuz they don't meet measureables etc.

3-4 may be more unpredictable and offer more chances for big plays but I believe the 4-3 is an easier defence to run and succeed with. On that basis alone, I'm happy with the defensive transition. Feel bad for Horton though...wasn;t alot of talent on the defence this year to work with.

Will be interesting to see who the casualities of the switch end upo being.

Call it a benefit of being the HC and boss maybe?

From what is being put out there it sounds like Horton being fired has more to do with a lack of compatibility going forward than it does with this past seasons performance in it's own right. The point of contention being the best way to develop the young talent.

Or maybe you are correct and that Horton is being made the scapegoat. In all honesty I have to hold your position as a serious consideration because in the past I used Hue convincing Horton to come back to Cleveland as something that illustrated why I believed the FO has a solid plan developed. If it wasn't a solid plan or Horton wouldn't have fit that, it wouldn't have made sense to bring him in.

I am not calling for Hue to be fired.

I am just a big fan of continuity and think the constant firings are one of the two biggest reasons why we suck. Heck, Joe Thomas believes the same damn thing.

We have the majority of the board defending the FO daily. They say this is year one. Give them time. And I agree w/that point of view. Yet, that same criteria doesn't apply to the coaching staff? Makes no sense to me, especially considering the talent that Horton and the other defensive coaches had to work with.

And Williams' defense was ranked 23rd in points allowed this year. They gave up 24.6 compared to Cleveland being 30th at 28.3. And the Rams digressed as the season wore on while the Brown's D actually got better. And no one can say that the Browns had better talent.

I am not so much knocking Williams, but I am just sick and tired of changing major parts every freaking year. It has never worked for us. Yet, we keep doing it.

No. But, I also wanted stability and think this whole situation was a mistake.

I know it's frustrating. And I get what you are saying. Had we retained Horton I don't think I would have felt all that strongly about it one way or the other. But I have to say, when you get away from the stats, I had some issues with Horton's defense that was not about the talent level.

Our defense in the last 2 games played more aggressive than the previous 14 combined. I agree with you that the defense did start to improve. It's just my opinion, but the turning point I noticed is when we put Reynolds back there. The safety positions settled down, which I think helped the DB's overall, which trickled up front. NOT saying he's All Pro, but he might be a Jimmy Leonard kind of guy for us. But even that said, our defense was pedestrian on things like the pass rush (run defense improved). Rarely did we ever do anything more than rush 4. IF we got a sack or IF we even got pressure it was due to an individual effort. Turnovers? Don't even think about it.

The last game especially we were throwing the kitchen sink... delayed blitzes, safety blitzes.. and in return we got some pressures, sacks, and turnovers.

I get you can't do that with such a young roster early in the season. But when we reached the point where we were giving up nearly 30 pts a game I don't see any reason why we didn't step it up much earlier.

I just didn't see the same aggressive style from Horton this time around.

But Hue definitely owns this move. If Williams doesn't work out I doubt Hue gets to play the "difference in player development" reason again.

Bad stability isn't a good thing ...

If he was this bad, or they didn't think he was going to be flexible going forward, why hire him in the first place.

It was a complete and total whiff by Hue if what he is saying is true. A wasted year for some guys, guys who might not have a lot of years in the NFL in the first place.

Not to mention, for Hue himself, he did no favors to himself by hiring Horton if he didn't think Horton is going to buy into a scheme that revolves around the players.

I guess I could be convinced that now Hue has fixed the problem, but ultimately, I wish he would have gotten it right the first time, or at least stuck it out for another year to see if Horton truly needed replacing.

It was unfair and is another bad look for the franchise as a whole. And I doubt it'll result in more wins next year, either.

It was a total whiff by Hue. I believe he wanted someone with experience he could turn his D over to, just to be that head coach of defense while Hue spent most of his time working to develop his system on the O side. It didnt work out and Ray wasnt the coach he thought him to be.

I think it took more guts by Hue to go ahead bite the bullet and caterize the slow bleeding wound than it would have been to give it another year with lack of trust and confidence growing.

Williams has gotten it done everywhere he has been. He isnt perfect but he can coach defense. Ray just coaches teams to a top 3 drafter pick over and over.

One thing I like about you is your consistent. I see other guys who were high on Hue and down on the FO go from hating to loving this move when they found out it was Hue's call and not the FOs...lol. You were consistent in calling this a bush league move and I for one appreciate it.

As far as this move goes....yeah same old Browns. Now all the rookies get to learn another system this year and start from scratch. Good grief

We don't totally agree, but that's fine. At least you can debate fairly. Much more enjoyable than some other conversations.

I think Williams has "gotten it done" when he had very good talent to work with. Kinda like Horton when he was in Arizona.

I don't get how that understood. Look at Hue. Our very own posters called him a great play caller and a qb whisperer due to his work w/the Bengals. Now, he's a "punk" who mismanages the clock, hurt two qbs, and needs to add an OC to relieve him of his play calling duties. LOL

It's about talent!

I think what some of you need to understand is there are 30 other teams who's fans hate their teams head coach. We are not ALL going to like him, or the decisions he makes. It just comes with the territory.

j/c:

Interesting take from Pluto. I wouldn't have thought this would be his position. Also, some insight with Horton back in 2013.

Cleveland Browns made needed change replacing Ray Horton with Gregg Williams -- Terry Pluto

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Here's basic fact that is seldom mentioned when the Cleveland Browns change head coaches in the off-season -- they have a very hard time putting together a coaching staff.

The Browns hired Hue Jackson on January 13, 2016.

He was their fourth head coach in six years. Here's the list: Pat Shurmur (2011-12), Rob Chudzinski (2013), Mike Pettine (2014-15) and Jackson (2016).

If you are a big-time coordinator, you probably were already off the market by the time Jackson was hired a year ago. Or else, you probably would decide Cleveland is a risky place to work.

So when Jackson was looking for a defensive coordinator, he had two choices:

- Someone who had not been a defensive coordinator before.
- Someone who recently had been fired and had a spotty record as a defensive coordinator.

Because Jackson was going to spend so much time with the offense, he correctly realized he needed an experienced coordinator. That guy would be a like a head coach for the defense.

Ray Horton already had been fired by the Browns in 2013. That was part of the fallout when Chudzinski was fired after one year.

I was told one option was keeping Chudzinski, but the Browns were going to fire Horton. They went for the nuclear option, and started over.

Horton went to Tennessee as defensive coordinator in 2014. In 2015, he remained with the Titans, but was demoted as veteran Dick LeBeau was put in charge of the defense. Horton is a LeBeau disciple, so they were able to work together.

But the fact remains, Horton had problems with his defense with the Browns in 2013 and with Tennessee in 2014.

Jackson knew that when hiring Horton, who was still being paid by the Browns from his 2013 contract.

It didn't work out again.

I'm not going to blame Horton for everything. But if he had a better track record, then it would be easier to make a case for more patience.

By midseason, I was ready for a new defensive coordinator because many of the same problems Horton had with the Browns in 2013 reappeared in 2016.

I'm not going bury you with all the defensive stats. They are bad.

Virtually everyone who closely follows the NFL will say Gregg Williams should make the Browns better.

I'm glad they made the move.

THERE IS BAGGAGE

Williams comes to town as the defensive coordinator who was suspended for the 2012 season for his role in "Bountygate," where New Orleans Saints players were reportedly paid to knock opposing players out of the game.

It was ugly and it's easy to find plenty of stories about it.

I admit to not being surprised when I heard it. I had no clue about Williams. But I had heard players rewarded each other for knocking out quarterbacks, etc.

Williams became the face of this deplorable practice that had been a part of some football teams for decades.

I don't like it. But I also know the league could have found other coaches if it chose to really look hard. Instead, suspending Williams became a warning sign for everyone in the NFL to cut out that practice.

This goes back to original premise of this story: Most coordinators coming to the Browns have something about them...

Inexperience...

Iffy track record...

Or something else, as with Williams.

In fact, the one coach least likely to have a bounty system is Williams, because he is under the most scrutiny.

A NEW APPROACH

Williams is a 4-3 defensive coach, and I greet that with a standing ovation.

Other than the Eric Mangini version of the 3-4 defense, I have seen it mostly fail here.

One of the better defenses the Browns had was the 4-3 run by Dick Jauron in 2011-12. It was basic. Players had clear assignments. It's wasn't great, but it looked organized.

Williams has a history of improving defenses.

One executive told me that Williams is "an upgrade" over Horton, "and he will make a difference if they get him some players."

He also said Williams can be difficult at times on a personal level. We'll see how that works out. But his history is that players tend to relate to him.

Also, the Browns drafted some linemen who are best in a 4-3, such as defensive ends Emmanuel Ogbah and Carl Nassib.

I can imagine Jamie Meeder and Danny Shelton in the middle of the line, with Ogbah and Nassib at the ends. They also will have more options to draft linemen. It's easier to find guys to play in the 4-3 system.

I'm open to what Williams brings to the Browns.

This is not just change for the sake of change. This is a change that needed to be made.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/01/cleveland_browns_made_needed_c.html

Building to his scheme with its repeated collapse was overwhelmingly a problem. There was more might have been done to show some improvement even in low talent people IMO. The secondary was bad, but collapsed and played worse. Coaches can at least attempt to compensate. Can't say we got better. We may have sacrificed some things in Horton's firing, but I see upside in the move. I didn't need to see more of the same with little adjustment and second half losses in a wait and see. Hope we get stronger.

j/c:

I think Pluto should do some research before commenting on Bountygate. Williams was warned to stop the practice of paying players to injure opponents, but he failed to stop the practice.

Pluto has been sounding more and more like a shill than an objective reporter. There wasn't a "need" to fire Horton.

Is it your position that any coach is good as long as he has talent?

If that's the case then coaching doesn't really matter all that much.

I keep seeing this "Why did Hue hire him in the first place?"

Vers, did you not read YTown's post about the firm that pushes minority hires? Even Hue Thanked the Haslams for letting him hire all the people that he did.

I don't think Horton was Hues first choice. I think once he did not get his choice he went for the minority hire. Yeah it aint right but, I think thats how it went down. I think Hue thought he could mold Horton into what he wanted, but Horton showed other wise. So, Like I said, You listen to the Boss or you walk, Horton chose to walk.

My position is that talent is more important than coaching in the NFL. This isn't high school where are you are given raw and inexperienced talent.

I think there is a difference in coaches, but it is not as drastic as people make it out to be.

Tell me, why was the Bengal offense so productive under Hue, but the Brown's offense sucked under Hue? Did he forget how to coach?

Why were Horton's Arizona defenses so good? Why were his Brown's defenses so bad? Did he too, forget how to coach?

What about Williams? His Ram defense was pretty darn good the last couple of years. Then, they lose guys in FA and cut a couple of players and his defense sucked this year. Did he suddenly forget how to coach?

Here is my point............make the right damn hire in the first place, stick w/that guy, and get him more talent. It isn't brain surgery.

Minority hire? What?

Pluto is dead nuts on.

You make it sound as though we're throwing the continuity thing out the window. We're not. We changed DC much like many teams do every year. Coordinator to HC is common. This was necessary.

Hortons defenses have been historical junk in 2 major ways. Make that 3.

3rd down
PPG
Rushing YPG

Best we did this NOW and move forward. Especially since there was a DC available that we WANTED.

We are changing schemes. We are bringing in other new coaches, not just Williams.

This rhetoric about change being necessary is a fantasy.

Look, the Browns lost a bunch of good players in FA. They made mistakes in the draft. They didn't want to pay other vets and unceremoniously cut them. The team went 1 and 15. They were ranked at the bottom of the league in both offense and defense.

Should we fire everyone in the FO? Why isn't that necessary? Their performance looks worse than Horton's.

The answer would be: No, we should not fire everyone. We should give them a chance to improve and see the plan through. That is the same answer for the Horton situation.

And yet how much did Tenn.'s D improve when they brought in Lebeau? They had some talent. His Defense has slipped no matter where he has gone over the past 5 years.

Some nonsense. I could see if Horton was a guy who had zero experience, a name that mysteriously popped out of nowhere, and then Hue just gave him a job. Not the case!!!

Horton has years of experience, and is/was highly qualified to run the defense.

Hue wants to win, and I dont see him bringing someone to run his team simply bc of the color of their skin.

Read YTown's post on it. Hue even thanked the Haslams for letting him bring in all the minority's he wanted. He said that he knew what it looked like but was not the case.

I don't think we should dwell on the minority hire thing. I think it was suggested Hue used that as a tie breaker or something. Not that he picked Horton because of his race when there were MONUMENTALLY better choices out there.

And it could easily be that race never had ANY part of it. Who knows??

Here's this:
In a recent ESPN article, Jackson said, "It's incumbent upon everybody in the National Football League to reach out and see if there are some men of color who can do the job and give them an opportunity, because I think they are deserving." He is absolutely correct, considering that about 70 percent of NFL players are African American, according to Vibe Sports. It would only make sense for NFL offices to reflect the way the players look.

There are a bunch more out there about hiring men of color. I think Horton was on the list at the firm they used to select from and Hue took a chance that Horton would be a good choice.

Come on, man!

This has nothing to do with a "Rooney rule" hire. That is absolute rubbish. Hue hired many African-Americans, not just Horton. He chose people who he felt were the best at the time (early 2016). Now he needs to make changes to help the team move forward from a dismal season. That is what a boss does.

He got it wrong and he has accepted as such. He has since fired a guy who may well have been a close friend. Kudos to him for having the balls and the spine to do so. Pettine rolled with his buddy and it was ultimately his downfall. I respect Hue for his strength and for putting the team 1st over his potential friendship with Ray.

Is Hue perfect? Of course not. He has made his fair share of mistakes along the way but, he is also learning and growing from them. He also has a monumental task in front of him and after nearly going 0-16 he has difficult decisions to make. I trust that Hue has the best intentions and is 110% committed to turning this ship around. He is our best chance and I welcome Gregg Williams to the Dawg Pound!

Did you not read what Hue said? It's about hiring Men of Color to give them a chance. Don't call my post rubbish when Hue himself states thats why he hired who he did.

Again, this wasn't Horton's first rodeo. If it was, and he had no previous experience as a DC, then sure.. go ahead and run with it.

I guess anytime anyone disagrees with your thinking now, the first words on paper from you are "DO SOME RESEARCH"

Ok,, show me where what you say about Williams is fact?

I couldn't find where he was warned by anyone to stop it. Not that he wasn't, I just could not find it.

Again, some are turning this into something WAY more than it most likely is. Unless proven otherwise or told, you are simply speculating and creating doubt, mistrust and cynicism. Something Browns fans are very skilled at doing.

Unless a trusted source comes out and proves you right I think it is fair for fans to accept that Horton was hired in good faith and trust that, at the time, he was the best guy for the gig. I could be wrong, but, I also don't believe he was in danger of being fired at TN before he was headhunted by Hue. Meaning he had a secure job and was poached for a parallel position because Hue Jackson thought he was the guy he wanted. Nothing to do with race, at all.

So, here we are a year later and it turns out he wasn't the best guy for the job so, the boss decided to make a change.

Done deal.

Go Hue!

Okay, fair enough. It's not worth fighting over.

I'm kind of on the "why did we hire this guy?", but in a different way. It was more like, "why would this guy take this job?"

I got a really bad feeling when we brought Horton back for a second go-around. That feeling got worse after I looked up his d's performance in Tenn since his last Browns employment, and the demotion, and the state of our defensive roster. I was really excited for what Horton could do for our D when he came in the first time, but that feeling has soured since that day. The guy has had a downward trend ever since his 'Zona days.

I feel really bad for Horton. We screwed him over once, and then if that wasn't enough, we brought him back and screwed him over again. It really bolsters the argument that our FO is, at best, clueless, and at worst, slimey, shady, etc. We brought in Horton, gutted his talent, and then sent him packing as a sacrificial lamb. That sucks.

Still, I'm torn. This could end up being good for the Browns. Gregg Williams has had more success than Horton on a number of different teams. I'll have to read up on Williams' brand of 4-3, but I'm going to assume that Williams' d is simpler than Horton's.

I do wish that the FO would take a page out of Hue's book, and have a blunt evaluation of their drafting folks' performance. I wouldn't mind seeing some improvement in that area. Having Sashi Brown responsible for any of the upcoming draft work is very worrisome (he was part of the group that watched Trubisky in his bowl game). Let's apply the same rules to the whole Browns org.

I'm also worried about the potential fallout, roster-wise, on this change. We really can't afford to march any of our talent out the door.

I'm a huge fan of continuity but if Hue thinks this is an upgrade, then let's see what happens. I do like the fact that Williams does seem to be more aggressive. Bountygate doesn't even bother me although I do agree that those sort of things should be against the rules and those rules should be enforced.

Okay:



Getting ready for the spin.

But no, I am not going to get into an argument w/you about this.

two thoughts. first I did not think Pluto came across as a "shill" at all. seemed like a pretty informative article to me. i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
second, neither you nor i know if hue had a "need" to fire horton. we do not know the conversation between them or the work relationship they had. i am not shocked that a new hire could be judged the wrong choice after one year. our coach made that call. hue knows our talent level on defense and decided to go a different direction with the defense.
the article on here somewhere written by a former player of Williams impressed the heck out of me. I look forward to a new mindset/attitude on defense.