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The two I addressed ...
Bonefish and predator for starters ... there's a bunch more of them ... include yourself IF and ONLY IF u think hes definetly being traded ... there's a lot of room between as u phrased it "we think" and it being a done deal NO BRAINER like bone and predator and at least a few others are making it out to be ...
"They say" ... i could care less what "they say" about JG ... I .. ME ... u know .. the person i answer for ...... I HAVEN'T SAID ANY OF THOSE THINGS .... not one ... well 6 weeks or so ago when the convo started i said i was leary cause of what all the other back ups that played very good there and then sucked after leaving ... upon further reflection ... i decided that had ZERO TO DO WITH JG ..... if "they" can't figure that out ... thats "their" problem not mine ... i haven't said it it in well over a month now and i only said it once or twice ...
SO ... I'm not part of the "THEY SAID" CROWD .... therefore i feel no need to defend it ...
My only point here is that its not a nO-BRAINER that Bill lets him go because he does have VALUE for them this upcoming season .... weather your foot fits in that shoe is up to U ... not me ...
U want to chat with me about weather he has value or will be traded ... lets chat ... but don't think i'm going to defend positions i don't have cause its where u want to steer the convo with me ...
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I have stated that IF he is traded, this league is so QB starved that there's no way New England takes a 2nd round pick for him.
If he goes on the trading block, there will be teams that will be in competition for his services and N.E. will either get a first round pick for him or he will remain on their roster.
This simply addresses the point that N.E. does have a high value placed on him.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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[quote=mac]
#1.. Are you willing to give JimmyG a Osweiler type contract, 60 or 70 million for 4 years with half of it guaranteed?
Yes, in the 50-60 range.
#2..How much you willing to invest in draft picks to NE to sign Garoppolo?...1st round+more?...a 2nd round pick?...3rd round pick?[/color]
Our #12 for JG and the Pats 1st rounder (#32?)[/quote]
For fun only, mac, but it's a starting point for discussion...
Some pretend like the actual numbers are not important and refuse to go on record.
I guess some are just not willing to backup their support of a deal for JimmyG, hoping they never have to focus on the actual cost and the huge risk the Browns would be taking if they signed Garoppolo to a similar deal that Houston gave up for Osweiler.
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Let's be clear I am not ignoring anything.
If Brady was like normal people then BB plan for Garoppolo as his replacement would take place.
The fact is Brady was signed to an extension and has made it clear that he plans to continue to play.
Unless he has told BB in private something different.
Of course they would love to keep Garoppolo as a back-up next year and that is there choice.
"If" they are willing to pay the price for two premium starters. Franchise tag or sign an negotiated extension. Bear in mind that choice(contract extension) lies with Garoppolo. Why would he want to remain a back-up?
The obvious question is why would they do that when they can get high assets for Garoppolo and they still have Brissett? Plus they can add another back-up at a low cost.
Belichick does not set the trade value. He could ask for the moon. What he will get is what someone is willing to pay.
Belichick in the past has moved these type guys Ryan Mallett, Matt Cassel, and Hoyer.
In this market with the teams that are in need of a quarterback he can take the best deal. Playing them against each other. It is a sellers market.
Why do think that Lombardi "leaked" the Garoppolo market value as a 1st rounder and fourth?
You are entitled to think what you want. Common sense says in this scenario get as much as you can for Garoppolo in a trade. Then prepare Brissett as back-up and sign a another option.
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Let's be clear I am not ignoring anything.
Except that Tom Brady is one play away from retirement, like any other player in the NFL. Nobody is immune to injuries.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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[quote=mac]
#1.. Are you willing to give JimmyG a Osweiler type contract, 60 or 70 million for 4 years with half of it guaranteed?
Yes, in the 50-60 range.
#2..How much you willing to invest in draft picks to NE to sign Garoppolo?...1st round+more?...a 2nd round pick?...3rd round pick?[/color]
Our #12 for JG and the Pats 1st rounder (#32?)[/quote]
For fun only, mac, but it's a starting point for discussion...
Mac: If a person believes that JG could be a solid starter or better, then this is a good deal for us. If you don't believe in JG, then you don't do the deal at all...
Last edited by bbrowns32; 01/17/17 04:04 PM.
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How does that change a thing?
Do you see any team in the NFL paying for two premium starters? A franchise tag would cost $20 mil a year.
You see any team paying $40 million a year on two quarterbacks?
Rodgers is one play away from injury as is Ben. What are they paying their back-ups?
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Vers, I think you;re beating a dead horse trying to argue with these guys. They want to trade down 2 or 3 times and draft Bryan Weeden. Mac keeps worrying about money like its coming out of his pocket.
I would love to get Jimmy G and use our 3 remaining picks on defense, then Oline.
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Let's be clear I am not ignoring anything. U say this .. then u go and PROVE your IGNORING a few things ... along with bringing up IRRELIVENT things that are just baggage ... to me its CRYSTAL CLEAR that u are actually COMPLETELY DISREGARDING his worth this upcoming year .. "If" they are willing to pay the price for two premium starters. Franchise tag or sign an negotiated extension. Bear in mind that choice(contract extension) lies with Garoppolo. Why would he want to remain a back-up? Thats NEXT YEARS DECISION ... don't "manipulate" the debate ... this year .. JG is VERY INEXPENSIVE .... he has NO CHOICE in weather he is traded or not this year ... NONE ... The obvious question is why would they do that when they can get high assets for Garoppolo and they still have Brissett? There u go ... thats 100% IGNORING HIS VALUE for this upcoming year ... 100% .... so why u say your NOT ignoring anything when its right there ... Belichick does not set the trade value. He could ask for the moon. What he will get is what someone is willing to pay. *LOL* ... OK ... your not in business are u? ... Dude .. if Bill decides that JG is worth a 1st round pick and NOTHING LESS ... then JG doesn't get traded unless u give up a 1st .. its that SIMPLE ... don't over think this one ... In this type of negotiation .. the key element is actually being the OWNER ... and at this point NE owns JG for the 2017 football season ... he goes NO WHERE unless Bill gets what he deems him to be worth ... to think anything different is naive at best ... Belichick in the past has moved these type guys Ryan Mallett, Matt Cassel, and Hoyer. The only one even remotely close is Mallett .. and he's not that close ... just because there back up QB's doesn't mean there the same "type" of players .. NOT EVEN CLOSE ... Why do think that Lombardi "leaked" the Garoppolo market value as a 1st rounder and fourth? U really think this is relevant ... OK .. *LOL* ... You are entitled to think what you want. Gee Thanks bone ... thats pretty nice of u allowing me to have my own opinion ... U DA MAN ... *L* ... Common sense says in this scenario get as much as you can for Garoppolo in a trade. Then prepare Brissett as back-up and sign a another option. Its just that simple huh ... damm .. then why haven't we had even a competent QB over the last 17 years if its so simple? .. Gimme a break ... JG has more value than any of u want to give him credit for having ... its pretty shocking to me that u REFUSE to acknowledge that ...
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Look there is no dispute about his value for 2017. Ok, I get that. You don't need to capitalize.
Under your scenario they have him for 2017 along with Brissett. Great insurance not expensive.
Is that insurance worth what they can get this year in trade for Garoppolo? I didn't ignore it because it is obvious.
Given that they will have a sellers market?
Please I don't need snide remarks about my business acumen.
Fair market value will dictate what Belichick can get in trade. Belichick can reject the offers if he is willing to lose the value that Garoppolo can bring.
If he decides that he will only accept a first rounder then his option is to franchise him or try to negotiate a new deal after this year.
Yes he is under contract for this year.
What is your point other than the obvious?
I never said that Garoppolo, Mallett, Cassel, and Hoyer were the same guy. There was no mention of comparing them as players was there?
Free agency is decision time for teams.
==========================================
"Why do think that Lombardi "leaked" the Garoppolo market value as a 1st rounder and fourth?
U really think this is relevant ... OK .. *LOL* ...
It is relevant because it is acknowledging that they want to set a starting market price. Always try to establish a high value.
================================================
" Common sense says in this scenario get as much as you can for Garoppolo in a trade. Then prepare Brissett as back-up and sign a another option.
Its just that simple huh ... damm .. then why haven't we had even a competent QB over the last 17 years if its so simple? ..
=======================================================
What?? What are talking about? How does that statement correlate to the Browns inability to draft or sign a legit quarterback?
Look if you have read anything I have written about Garoppolo since his draft class then you would know that I think very highly of Garoppolo.
I have stated I would make the trade of the 12th to get him if necessary. I would try to negotiate a better deal but if that is what it takes I would do the deal.
Don't try to preach to me I don't need your tone.
You want to have discussion fine that is what this is about. Discuss differences of opinion. Don't try to cop an attitude with how much you think you know.
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I have used logic and reason as my guide throughout this entire discussion. You ignore all of the crap that people are MAKING UP, and then belittle those who are using logic and reason.
Mac is talking out of his butt. He is acting like Jimmy G is a FA. He isn't. You ignore that.
He is saying that Jimmy G is injury prone. Jimmy did not miss a single game during college. You ignore that.
People are saying that BB would not trade Jimmy G if he was any good. We have given a valid reason for trading him. You ignore that.
tab says some crap about Hue saying there is a franchise qb he wants in this draft. That is a fantasy. Yet, you ignore that.
You can LOL all you want, but you are acting as clueless as the other guys who don't even bother studying the situation.
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Thanks guys. Very well put. He was giving me an aneurysm. I had to ignore.
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I don't read mac ....
Your not dragging me into your posse .. so i'll just ignore the rest of that BRILLIANT FOOTBALL POST .... *LOL* ...
PEDATOR/BONE - feel free to ignore me guys ... your both good at ignoring things .... add me to the list ...
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Bro, w/all due respect.............I believe that I made a ton of very good football posts.
I am NOT saying you should agree w/me about how good Jimmy G is.
What I am saying is that I gave logical, valid reasons as to why he is available, his pros and cons, and why he might be our best choice.
I didn't make squat up. Not one thing.
I'm disappointed in you on this take, bro.
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I don't read mac ....
Your not dragging me into your posse .. so i'll just ignore the rest of that BRILLIANT FOOTBALL POST .... *LOL* ...
PEDATOR/BONE - feel free to ignore me guys ... your both good at ignoring things .... add me to the list ... I answered every point you ever made. In English I might add not incoherent thought bubbles such as yourself. Keep perfecting that 12 year old girl snarky attitude while you enjoy your solitude from me. I'm out
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I know I'm late to the party, but I'll get your back on this topic.
You posted some info about Brady wanting to play for 5 more years and caught flak for it. For arguments sake, let's assume he doesn't play 5 more years... as long as he's likely to play for at least 2 more, nothing changes the scenario. JimmyG is not likely to sign an extension as a back up when he can get a handsome starter's contract elsewhere. I know some players like to give a team the "hometown" discount but that would be nuts! lol
The ONLY way I see them retaining JimmyG is IF Brady announces 2017 is his last season and he intends to retire. Then it might be worth it for BB to keep him assuming he his the heir apparent.
Diam... I don't think anyone disputes JimmyG has value being an insurance policy, but how much is that worth? OK, the Pats are Super Bowl contenders next season... so long as Brady is behind center and the team remains largely in tact, no reason to see why it wouldn't, the Pats will be considered Super Bowl contenders for at least a few more years. What does BB do for insurance after 2017? I don't think Obamacare will cover that one lol
And be careful to not overlook the obvious.. BB's hallmark is that he has such an amazing 'plug and play' system over there. He consistently gets average players to play much better. He has a lot of wiggle room in terms of talent level when it comes to putting someone behind center and getting the job done.
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One thing some dont seem to know is that if bill wants to he can have Jimmy G for another three years. 1 year left on his contract and he can franchise twice.
Now you're going to say that is expensive and it is. Here's the thing though. They have the caps space to do it. Bill could always do it to play things safe. Then if something happens to Brady or father time suddenly catches up to him they are good to go. All he has to do is pay money for it. It's also possible Jimmy G. would sign a 2 year extension to stay in NE. Crazier things have happened.
Some of you talking about Brisket like he did something good is crazy. The guy has not even been able to throw a single TD yet in 2 and a half games. How in the realm of logic does that compare favorably to anything?!! Jimmy had 4TD in just a game and a half. Jimmy also had MORE passing yards by over 100 Even though he played less. Even if you don't watch the film its EASY to see Brisket sucks compared to Jimmy G just stat wise.
I am not even sure Bill WILL trade Jimmy G. It sure isn't going to be for chump change like some of you are thinking that's for sure.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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You posted some info about Brady wanting to play for 5 more years and caught flak for it. For arguments sake, let's assume he doesn't play 5 more years... as long as he's likely to play for at least 2 more, nothing changes the scenario. JimmyG is not likely to sign an extension as a back up when he can get a handsome starter's contract elsewhere. Exactly. That is a point that I was trying to make, but it got lost somehow in cyberspace.
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Well, I don't know if Jimmy G will be a franchise level QB, or not. I don't even know i he'll be a reasonable starter, or not.
However, some of the stuff I have seen on this thread is kinda ridiculous.
Belichick keeps his team on top because he maximizes his assets. Jimmy G has perceived value, so he will decide whether or not he wants to move him, or replace Brady when Jimmy's contract is up. However, I see no way that Garappolo re-signs with the Pats when this contract is up. Why would he? He'll get a similar contract, or maybe even a better contract, on the open market. He isn't going to sign with New England for the same money, when Brady very well play for another 5 years. Why would he want to sit through his peak years, maybe until he is 28, 29, or 30? Brady is not a guy who relies upon a monster arm and physical prowess to win. He has a solid arm, but his brain, drive, leadership, and preparation are his primary weapons, and he uses them extremely well.
My only thought is that we better be right if we trade for him. We would have to give up a premium pick for him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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One thing some dont seem to know is that if bill wants to he can have Jimmy G for another three years. 1 year left on his contract and he can franchise twice.
Now you're going to say that is expensive and it is. Here's the thing though. They have the caps space to do it. Bill could always do it to play things safe. Then if something happens to Brady or father time suddenly catches up to him they are good to go. All he has to do is pay money for it. It's also possible Jimmy G. would sign a 2 year extension to stay in NE. Crazier things have happened.
Some of you talking about Brisket like he did something good is crazy. The guy has not even been able to throw a single TD yet in 2 and a half games. How in the realm of logic does that compare favorably to anything?!! Jimmy had 4TD in just a game and a half. Jimmy also had MORE passing yards by over 100 Even though he played less. Even if you don't watch the film its EASY to see Brisket sucks compared to Jimmy G just stat wise.
I am not even sure Bill WILL trade Jimmy G. It sure isn't going to be for chump change like some of you are thinking that's for sure. That's the thing. Garoppolo DOES have value to NE. But there's virtually ZERO chance NE would Tag him. That Tag is going to be near #25 MILLION. Noone has ever carried 50 MILLION in QBs. NE might need to do it AGAIN in 2019. If Brady is still around. When Garoppolo hits FA in 2018 he WON'T sign with NE. They won't offer anything even close to what another team will. So DIAM. You either move him NOW and get the high picks or keep your Insurance Policy for ONE YEAR and lose it afterwards. Don't ignore THAT. Lol
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or maybe we wait until after next year when we fire Hue, hire McDaniles, then sign Jimmy G 
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Two logical posts by you and YTown.
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jc...
What are you willing to give up in terms of draft picks to New England for Garoppolo?
I've read that NE is looking for a 1st round and a 4th round picks, same thing the Vikings gave up in the trade for Bradford.
You ok with the Browns giving up their #12 pick and 4th round pick in trade for Garoppolo?
Once you decided to make the trade for JimmyG, you must decide if you want to have him under contract before the trade is finalized or do you simply make the trade and worry about JimG's contract later?
Either way, Garoppolo's agent is going be looking to land as big of a contract as he can get for his client (JG) and the contracts of the recent past serve as a guideline that Garoppolo's agent will use.
Osweiler's contract serves as a guideline..it was 4 yrs/72mill with 37 mill guarenteed.
Don't be surprised if Garoppolo's agent wants more than Osweiler was paid. The Browns pursued JimmyG so it's not like the Browns would have much leverage.
The 2016 franchise tag is valued at 19.953 million, if the Browns decide to trade for Garoppolo without signing him to a future contract. I believe the Browns would have to use their 2018 franchise tag if they cannot agree on a contract with JimmyG...meaning the franchise tag value for 2018 would grow larger over the 19.953 mill example I used above.
The Browns are going to be faced with resigning Pryor and Collins this off season...and any potential contract deal with Garoppolo should have no bearing on getting these deals done.
Just trying to be realistic about the cost attached to signing JimG.
All based on 1.5 games of play.
..what would you do?
Last edited by mac; 01/18/17 09:15 AM.
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The ONLY way I see them retaining JimmyG is IF Brady announces 2017 is his last season and he intends to retire.
Alternatively, and I do believe it is unthinkable, is if Brady is traded. Remember Bledsoe...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I'd give up a third rounder, and tag him only if he plays well that season as a "show me" move.
He isn't worth more. He hasn't done anything in the NFL to show he's worth more as of right now.
Last edited by Swish; 01/18/17 09:21 AM.
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Yet, you want to draft Watson. What has he done in the NFL?
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One thing some dont seem to know is that if bill wants to he can have Jimmy G for another three years. 1 year left on his contract and he can franchise twice. Wait, I thought at the end of this season he was an UFA. Are you saying he has another year as a restricted FA?
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j/c
I think there is more agreement on here than disagreement...jmo
I also think Diam is in that group, but is basically saying this:
Championship windows open briefly for most teams. If BB thinks JG is necessary to ensure next year's run, he's not going to trade him.
That's what makes the trading of JG NOT a no-brainer. BB may still choose to trade JG, and he may not. Pretty simple actually.
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I'd give up a third rounder, and tag him only if he plays well that season as a "show me" move.
He isn't worth more. He hasn't done anything in the NFL to show he's worth more as of right now.
There are 4 teams and maybe 5 teams that would be interested in dealing for Garoppolo.
49ers..Bears..Jets..Bills and I've read that the Saints might also have some interest in signing JimmyG as the future replacement for Drew Brees.
With that much interest, any idea of getting the Patriots down to a 3rd round pick is unrealistic, imo.
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Yet, you want to draft Watson. What has he done in the NFL? He's not in the NFL. But he's done a hell of a lot more in college, and that's the stuff you keep on referring to when it comes to jimmy G. I'll take the guy that has thrown for over 3500 yards, rushed for over 1000 in the same season, and won a national title over a guy who played.... My bad, I forgot, what conference was he in again?
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I'd give up a third rounder, and tag him only if he plays well that season as a "show me" move.
He isn't worth more. He hasn't done anything in the NFL to show he's worth more as of right now.
There are 4 teams and maybe 5 teams that would be interested in dealing for Garoppolo.
49ers..Bears..Jets..Bills and I've read that the Saints might also have some interest in signing JimmyG as the future replacement for Drew Brees.
With that much interest, any idea of getting the Patriots down to a 3rd round pick is unrealistic, imo. Exactly, I don't want anything to do with him. But if he can be had for a third, which is what he's realistically worth based on his production, then sure, I'll support the guy if he comes to the team. I simply feel like we can do better without giving up major resources to do it.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Ahhh, so arm talent, decision making, accuracy, delivering the ball quickly, being able to go through progressions are not important.
I get it.........you prefer Vince Young and Matt Leinart over Big Ben and Joe Flacco.
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Ahhh, so arm talent, decision making, accuracy, delivering the ball quickly, being able to go through progressions Thanks for saying great and accurate things about Watson!! Have a good one.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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j/c
I think there is more agreement on here than disagreement...jmo
I also think Diam is in that group, but is basically saying this:
Championship windows open briefly for most teams. If BB thinks JG is necessary to ensure next year's run, he's not going to trade him.
That's what makes the trading of JG NOT a no-brainer. BB may still choose to trade JG, and he may not. Pretty simple actually. I agree with all of that. BB will never hurt his team. This LB we picked up from them this year (collins I think) is a prime example of how BB works. He probably knows or believes it will be hard to sign the guy for a price he finds acceptable, so he trades him mid season and gets what he can for him. for the record, I don't think BB will franchise Jimmy G. That's a whole lotta money tied up in two QB's. But he can. Razor said something about this not being his final year with the Pats.. So I checked, but I admit this contract stuff does leave me a little confused. This is what I found Year Age Base Salary Signing Bonus Workout Bonus Cap Hit Dead Cap 2014 Contract details by year 22 $420,000 $213,436 - $633,436 $1,103,744 2015 Contract details by year 23 $578,359 $213,436 - $791,795 $890,308 2016 Contract details by year 24 $686,718 $213,436 $50,000 $950,154 $476,872 2017 Contract details by year 25 $820,077 $213,436 $75,000 $1,108,513 $213,436 2018 Free Agent Year 26 UFA He doens't become an UFA until 2018 if I'm reading that right., Am I?
Last edited by Damanshot; 01/18/17 01:36 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I thought John Clayon had retreated to whatever martian planet he's from, but apparently not... John Clayton tells us asking price for Garoppolo will be more like Alex Smith (two 2nd rounders), not Sam Bradford. @TonyGrossi says same. Not sure on the validity of it, particularly as it coincides with a Grossi take, but I've always thought anything involving a first rounder was too steep.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I thought John Clayon had retreated to whatever martian planet he's from, but apparently not... John Clayton tells us asking price for Garoppolo will be more like Alex Smith (two 2nd rounders), not Sam Bradford. @TonyGrossi says same. Not sure on the validity of it, particularly as it coincides with a Grossi take, but I've always thought anything involving a first rounder was too steep. The asking price is whatever the best offer is (obviously). We don't know what that is at this point (obviously).
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I can't believe U just want to IGNORE the fact he has VALUE for the upcoming year as a back up ... there a SB contender ... he has VALUE for them ... over 1/2 the teams in the AFC started at least 2 QB's this past season due to injuries .. INCLUDING NE who had JG start and get hurt .. then they had Brissett start and he got hurt ... only reason JG didn't start week 4 is that Brissett was "healthier" then he was ....
There's VALUE THERE weather u guys want to admit it or not ...
U guys act like trading him is a NO-BRAINER ... when in fact its NOT ...
At least u acknowledge there will be other teams calling ... there's NO WAY we get him for lESS than the 1st pick in rnd 2 ... that is the LEAST he will cost us ... and that's all about how many other teams need QB's and not the VALUE BILL PLACES ON HIM ...
It seems to me alot of u think just because we need a QB it means he will be traded ... SORRY .. but he has value to the NE patriots team for next season ... the question is ... how much faith does bill have in Brissett if Tom goes down and that will help Bill determine WHAT JG IS WORTH TO HIM in a trade ....
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Legend
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Joined: Nov 2006
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j/c
I think there is more agreement on here than disagreement...jmo
I also think Diam is in that group, but is basically saying this:
Championship windows open briefly for most teams. If BB thinks JG is necessary to ensure next year's run, he's not going to trade him.
That's what makes the trading of JG NOT a no-brainer. BB may still choose to trade JG, and he may not. Pretty simple actually. DING DING DING ... we have a winner ... Ad to that its going to cost a VERY HIGH pick to get him ... then we can say ... WELCOME TO REALITY .... *L* ...
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
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Keep perfecting that 12 year old girl snarky attitude while you enjoy your solitude from me. I'm out Will do ... enjoy yourself with mac and bone ... *L* ... BYE -BYE ...
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jimmy G. trade to the Browns Part
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