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How do you feel about the money we gave Collins? Because, if you wanna play the stat game, I could "whip" a pretty strong stat out that doesn't paint Collins in such a good light.
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How do you feel about the money we gave Collins? Because, if you wanna play the stat game, I could "whip" a pretty strong stat out that doesn't paint Collins in such a good light. Lol. I hear ya. Not to be an ASS and hurt the guys who think we HAVE to overpay to sign anyone including our own. But Collins got EXACTLY what he's worth. We didn't overpay this 20% thing I heard. I believe he would have gotten more if he hit the open market. Not sure where that Spotrac site gets its info but we were right in line with its predicted $. If you go by that site and hit +/- 10% I say you did good. I wanna see what Williams does with this dude.
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If the figures I looked at are right, the franchise tag for a WR is $15.7 mil. That is his value.
I believe Pryor is going to bet on himself and make the team tag him. Why wouldn't he? If I was his agent, that would be my position.
Once that happens, teams can't talk about possibly getting injured. The kid already won a nice lottery pot. Eight or so mil after taxes can last nearly anybody with half a brain the rest of their life, and that assumes the guy. never works at anything again.
He is going to take the tag, and then see where his value goes from there. Why sign for 12 mil a year over 4 years when you can take near 15 mil this year and sign for 13 a year over 4 years next year?
Sign now for 12 a year, you gross 48 mil over the contract. Take the tag at 15, then sign for 4 years at 13 mil nets you 67 mil over the contract plus the tag year. It isn't about betting on themselves for most athletes, most of them believe they can be the best because they have spent their entire lives being the best. It is about betting against injury..just as you lay out $15M cap, plus a better offer next off season..It is a big risk that they get injured and may be forced to take much lower due to an injury that is out of their control. He could just as easily have his hamstring act up again, worse this time, end up with Corey Coleman taking the lead as a WR in year two, and get $7M a year(currently 3nd tier receivers are getting between $6M-$7.25M), and about $12M guaranteed on the open market over 3 years, being an injury riddled #2 receiver...That adds up to $21M + your $15M. Which is about $4M short of what you could have made had you signed the extension. That's as long as he doesn't have a catastrophic injury. The odds are low, but it is still a consideration. Tag $15M guaranteed, possibly another $52M barring injury over 5 years. Above market offer of $10M per with $20M Guaranteed over 4 years. End of the day you are vetting: $67M over 5 years = 13.4M/year, but only guaranteed $15M for one year, not to mention the more per year, the more ways out at the end of the contract teams write in. It's an ego thing, the higher the contract becomes. vs. $40M over 4 years = $10M/year, with $20M guaranteed...then if you become what you think you will become, after 4 years, you get to do it again...this time signing the new market value for WRs. So this is a bet on Player vs. Injury, in most cases in the NFL, the player takes the money because they see injuries every day.
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I would think that it would be in the best interest of Pryor and his agent to get the benefits of a Long term contract with GUARANTEE money. A franchise tag will not guarantee him anything.
jmho
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If the figures I looked at are right, the franchise tag for a WR is $15.7 mil. That is his value.
I believe Pryor is going to bet on himself and make the team tag him. Why wouldn't he? If I was his agent, that would be my position.
Once that happens, teams can't talk about possibly getting injured. The kid already won a nice lottery pot. Eight or so mil after taxes can last nearly anybody with half a brain the rest of their life, and that assumes the guy. never works at anything again.
He is going to take the tag, and then see where his value goes from there. Why sign for 12 mil a year over 4 years when you can take near 15 mil this year and sign for 13 a year over 4 years next year?
Sign now for 12 a year, you gross 48 mil over the contract. Take the tag at 15, then sign for 4 years at 13 mil nets you 67 mil over the contract plus the tag year. It isn't about betting on themselves for most athletes, most of them believe they can be the best because they have spent their entire lives being the best. It is about betting against injury..just as you lay out $15M cap, plus a better offer next off season..It is a big risk that they get injured and may be forced to take much lower due to an injury that is out of their control. He could just as easily have his hamstring act up again, worse this time, end up with Corey Coleman taking the lead as a WR in year two, and get $7M a year(currently 3nd tier receivers are getting between $6M-$7.25M), and about $12M guaranteed on the open market over 3 years, being an injury riddled #2 receiver...That adds up to $21M + your $15M. Which is about $4M short of what you could have made had you signed the extension. That's as long as he doesn't have a catastrophic injury. The odds are low, but it is still a consideration. Tag $15M guaranteed, possibly another $52M barring injury over 5 years. Above market offer of $10M per with $20M Guaranteed over 4 years. End of the day you are vetting: $67M over 5 years = 13.4M/year, but only guaranteed $15M for one year, not to mention the more per year, the more ways out at the end of the contract teams write in. It's an ego thing, the higher the contract becomes. vs. $40M over 4 years = $10M/year, with $20M guaranteed...then if you become what you think you will become, after 4 years, you get to do it again...this time signing the new market value for WRs. So this is a bet on Player vs. Injury, in most cases in the NFL, the player takes the money because they see injuries every day. I am under the impression that most of us agree he won't get franchise tagged. He will get transitioned. At least that's what seems to make the most sense. If some knucklehead team crafts a pot of crapola contact like Jacksonville did us and Mack, then we will have to overpay big time and possibly still get set up with him leaving before all his good years are gone. I'll put myself out and say no team is going to offer him 15 million a year.
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The tag is what ...... $17 million for a WR?
Give Pryor deal in the $40-$45 million range, with $20 million guaranteed, and that is just as good as, and maybe even better than giving him the tag. We have the cap space. If we would need to cut him after 2 years, no big deal.
I don't like using the franchise tag unless there is no other option. Rarely does a guy sign for less than he originally wanted after being tagged, and it creates a lot of ill will, as players want the guaranteed money, and the overall contract dollar amount. (which is often a meaningful as ice cream on the moon, but players want the ego that comes with a "huge deal", even if they will never see the end of the deal.
Just my $0.02.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If the boys come in with 20-23 million guarnteed.
5 year 45 million
He should jump at it and take Hue out to dinner.
I have a feeling they are thinking a lot less.
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The franchise tag for a WR is projected to be $15.7 million.
Giving Pryor $20 million guaranteed is no real difference, especially with our cap room. The rest of the contract is really meaningless. If he signs a 4 year deal worth $45 million, with year 1 and half of year 2 guaranteed, and he completely bombs next year, it is not all that much different than giving him the tag.
Imagine they structure a deal like this:
Year 1: $10 million, fully guaranteed.
Year 2: $10 million, $5 million guaranteed
Year 3: $12 million, $5 million guaranteed
year 4: $13 million, no guarantee.
So Pryor gets $20 million in guarantees. (which is better than the franchise tag) The team is protected in the ensuing years if he flops. Heck, you could even make year 2 gully guaranteed and then make years 3 and 4 non guaranteed.
Players tend to give up a few dollars for contract length. (with guaranteed money and injury protection) The team also has to give things up, and that is on the guaranteed side.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree. Pay him the money w/out putting a tag on him. Make it so you can get out of the deal if he isn't performing after a couple of years. Teams do this all the time and it is one of the reasons the salary cap issue isn't such a big deal anymore.
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Year 1: $10 million, fully guaranteed.
Year 2: $10 million, $5 million guaranteed
Year 3: $12 million, $5 million guaranteed
year 4: $13 million, no guarantee.
I'd read it as this.... Contract is for 4 yrs, $45M, $20M Guaranteed. Year 1: $10 million annual base, cap hit of $20M if you cut him. Year 2: $10 million annual base, cap hit of $10M if you cut him. Year 3: $12 million annual base, no cap hit if cut. year 4: $13 million annual base, no cap hit if cut. If your recommendation is to pay a $10M annual base in the first two years, guaranteed money will already be satisfied. No need to have guaranteed money allocated in year 3. I think the guaranteed money can be broken down in 4 year increments for cap structure purposes, but this still illustrates how much you'd have to give him. Not sure how I feel about starting at $10M to start off, but that's a different topic.
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I agree. Pay him the money w/out putting a tag on him. Make it so you can get out of the deal if he isn't performing after a couple of years. Teams do this all the time and it is one of the reasons the salary cap issue isn't such a big deal anymore. Also, the cap will be between $166-170 million this year, up from $155 million last year. The mere increase of the salary cap along pays for Pryor's potential deal. We need to stop shedding talent, when we can afford to keep them. Now if Pryor wants $30 million for one year, or something absolutely ridiculous like that, then pass ..... but if it's a fraction of the cap aspace we have, then just pay the guy and move on. If it doesn't work, we can always just cut him and move on.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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wish there was some good news about resigning TP. It's a little nerve wracking that nothing is being said.
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He could perhaps push it along. If he delays, he might hit a jackpot or be truly dis appointed.bbHope we get a first offer out there to start. Maybe a partial offer, maybe for one year and multi-year. Not sure a tag has good value. But if he insists on a wait & see, then we simplify. We should make it worth working with us.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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wish there was some good news about resigning TP. It's a little nerve wracking that nothing is being said. We haven't heard anything about anyone in the league really. It's the slow period. Once the Super Bowl is over things will pick up.
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I don't think they will use any tag. Because if you look back, no Team wanted him except the Browns. After 1 yr. who's gonna offer him anything over maybe 7-8 mil a year? If that. I say let him try FA, and then offer a little more to sign him. I just don't see anybody putting big money in him yet.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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I don't think they will use any tag. Because if you look back, no Team wanted him except the Browns. After 1 yr. who's gonna offer him anything over maybe 7-8 mil a year? If that. I say let him try FA, and then offer a little more to sign him. I just don't see anybody putting big money in him yet. So we tender him?
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Now there's a thought. I have not thought about that. Are there any rules about tendering? I say a 2nd round tender ought to do it.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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#GMSTRONG
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wish there was some good news about resigning TP. It's a little nerve wracking that nothing is being said. We haven't heard anything about anyone in the league really. It's the slow period. Once the Super Bowl is over things will pick up. sure hope so,, hate waiting....
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Could it be that we are waiting for him to heal up after the surgery and maybe submit to some kind of physical? I didn't think the injury was anything so major and if he was already under contract I can't imagine it being a big deal, but maybe he found himself in some weird quasi-gray area about being less than 100% healthy looking to sign a new contract?
Just spit ballin'
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I don't think they will use any tag. Because if you look back, no Team wanted him except the Browns. After 1 yr. who's gonna offer him anything over maybe 7-8 mil a year? If that. I say let him try FA, and then offer a little more to sign him. I just don't see anybody putting big money in him yet. So we tender him? You can only tender players who are restricted free agents. For example, Isaiah Crowell will be a restricted free agent because he has not accrued enough service time to become an unrestricted free agent (this was because he was signed to a three year contract as an undrafted free agent, drafted players sign four year contracts). A player has to have four seasons in the league to become an unrestricted free agent. We will likely give Crowell a qualifying offer that will require a team to compensate us with second round pick if they sign him ("second round tender"). We can use the franchise tag on Pryor. We can place the transition tag on Pryor. We can re-sign Pryor. We can let Pryor become a free agent. Those are the options.
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Ahh, did not know that thank you
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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wish there was some good news about resigning TP. It's a little nerve wracking that nothing is being said. We haven't heard anything about anyone in the league really. It's the slow period. Once the Super Bowl is over things will pick up. I think cfrs is exactly right. Also, FA hasn't even started yet.
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Also, FA hasn't even started yet.
March 6, IIRC...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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#gmstrong
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A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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All Pro
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Well low 20's for WR was in the 7-7.5 million/year average range and that's where he ended up statistically.
His lack of experience hurts him in some regards but also points to a potentially higher ceiling.
Taking into account the rapidly increasing salary cap, I'd say his agent is probably looking for 9+ million, but if they can lock him in closer to a 8 million average that would be acceptable.
4 years, 32 million (with likely 14 million guaranteed).
Crazy numbers, but so it goes these days.
People ask me what I do in spring when there's no football. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for fall
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So, if we offered those numbers, and someone else actually goes higher, if he signs with them will I have to read constant whining and crying that we "don't sign our own"?
Can we agree that more than that will be overpaying?
Overpaying for the sake of continuity?
Continuity
(The New Holy Grail)
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its a catch 22... if someone does offer more and he goes there will always be a contingent of posters that will say we let him walk and in effect we did.
By the same token there will be those that say no the choice was correct and we did not want to overpay.
The only thing that can be done is to judge each transaction on its own merit and not paint the FO as idiots if you disagree with one decision nor as genius if you agree.
As with most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle
then you have to factor in long term results... take a Taylor Gabriel for example... if he goes somewhere and has 12 TD's and 1500 yards then the FO looks stupid, if he gets 1 TD and 350 yards they look astute... then again
what are the side issues.... great year because of Matt Ryan versus a Kessler say or terrible year because Ryan blows out a knee and the falcons fold...
Bottom line who the hell knows ... now excuse me while I pull the splinter out of my ass from siting on this fence.
#gmstrong
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So, if we offered those numbers, and someone else actually goes higher, if he signs with them will I have to read constant whining and crying that we "don't sign our own"?
Can we agree that more than that will be overpaying?
Overpaying for the sake of continuity?
Continuity
(The New Holy Grail) And if we let him go, I will have to hear constant whining from the homers who say we went 1 and 15 w/him, so how good can he be. Dude, shut the hell up w/your BS!
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if we let him go then we might end up using pic #12 on a WR.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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No.
Even if TP left... We might take a WR later, but not at 12. We invested in Corey Coleman, and drafted the other wideouts too. Receivers usually make a big jump in their second year. IMO, we won't take Williams.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I am not getting the "logic" of letting Pryor go? He performed better than Collins. He has more "upside."
Why the hell would he let him go?
Now, he might have the attitude that there is no way he will re-sign w/this [censored]-poor franchise, but why would we just let him walk?
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I am all for keeping him =) I was just saying if we can't keep him and they don't want to franchise him.
I would actually prefer to franchise him for a year and see if he continues to improves or stagnates after hitting a wall.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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its a catch 22... if someone does offer more and he goes there will always be a contingent of posters that will say we let him walk and in effect we did.
By the same token there will be those that say no the choice was correct and we did not want to overpay.
The only thing that can be done is to judge each transaction on its own merit and not paint the FO as idiots if you disagree with one decision nor as genius if you agree.
As with most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle
then you have to factor in long term results... take a Taylor Gabriel for example... if he goes somewhere and has 12 TD's and 1500 yards then the FO looks stupid, if he gets 1 TD and 350 yards they look astute... then again
what are the side issues.... great year because of Matt Ryan versus a Kessler say or terrible year because Ryan blows out a knee and the falcons fold...
Bottom line who the hell knows ... now excuse me while I pull the splinter out of my ass from siting on this fence. So if we offer something in the range of 4 years, 32 million, 14 guaranteed and he turns it down and signs somewhere else, are you willing to classify the deal in the "we don't sign our own" "we aren't committed to "continuity" category? Someone earlier made a comparison to Josh Gordon. What kind of numbers would we have paid Josh if he had worked out? I don't see the similarity. At least not in the small amount I've seen in Pryor. Maybe we are just talking "upside" here, but Gordon had unnatural ability to accelerate out of the catch that you rarely see.
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Pryor was shut down by decent CBs...he has wife and kid/s? to take care off, but his character still bothers me...his immaturity getting penalties isn't a positive either...offer him fair value, but don't overpay.....GO Browns!!!!
"You've never lived till you've almost died, life has a flavor the protected will never know" A vet or cop
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And what do you consider fair value? I believe that's the entire premise of this thread.
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Pryor was shut down by decent CBs... There is that making up news or slanting it thing again....
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Pryor was shut down by decent CBs...he has wife and kid/s? to take care off, but his character still bothers me...his immaturity getting penalties isn't a positive either...offer him fair value, but don't overpay.....GO Browns!!!! Why do you question Pryor's character? Because of what happened at OSU? I did not see any character issues last season. I saw a college and pro QB transition to a new position and excel on a bad team. I saw a player that did all he could to win games on a bad team. Last game of the year when he caught the pass that gave him 1,000 yards he pointed at Hue and gave him a gesture that said thank you. It was refreshing to see at the end of a 1-15 season. Pryor needs to be resigned. He established himself last year as a core player on this team. We developed him we need to now keep the player we developed.
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Pryor was shut down by decent CBs...he has wife and kid/s? to take care off, but his character still bothers me...his immaturity getting penalties isn't a positive either...offer him fair value, but don't overpay.....GO Browns!!!! What penalties? When was he shut down and by what CB's? Character? What on earth did he do wrong?
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 380 |
I remember a few games he made an arse of himself. He has a little prima Donna wr to him. Enough hue called him out a few times.
He is still raw. Could be better route runner, and still needs to learn little tricks of the trade. But you can't teach his size and ability. Have to sign him though. His ceiling is to high.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
As long as he WORKS hard and is intense about getting better, which I believe Hue stated that is what he saw from him even after smacking Pryors hands for getting over emotional during games for wanting to win.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Fair Value Terrell Pryor
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