DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season 2017 NFL Draft What are our biggest needs from the draft? minus QB.

It's a good interview Mayock touches on many of the Browns key interest points for the draft.

He has interesting comments on Allen.

If you haven't listened to it...its worth it.

Went to NFL.com and I don't think he's got them out yet. But I suspect he has Garrett as an edge rusher and Allen as an interior DL. Different positions.

It's on there now.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000785722/article/mike-mayocks-2017-nfl-draft-position-rankings

What if we could took Allen(DT) at #1, S. Thomas(DE) at #12 both high motor guys.

And just for comparison, Allen grades out at 6.81. Garrett grades out at 7.63.

Nobody I saw on that list grades out at 7.0

This is about as simple as it gets. You have a player at a serious need position grading out about as high as a player can realistically grade.

Way to much over thinking going on here bro ... way to much what i call "getting cute" ... we've done that in the past ....

This kids the real deal ... draft him and don't look back ...

I agree Diam. Take Garrett. I believe the experts on this one.

I wonder if anyone actually even bothered to click the youtube vid or better yet listen to the previously posted Mayock interview.

j/c

I look at both Jonathan Allen and Myles Garrett. Both guys have super talent. In the end, more and more I look at it Allen seems the better choice.

Just as Mayock stated, Allen can play any position on the line. Second, Browns have an empty spot next to Shelton. Love Byrant but coming off an injury and being 30 years old you have to think replacement.

I keep seeing a front four DL Ogbah, Allen, Shelton, and Nassib surrounded by Collins, Kirksey, and Orchard. I could be wrong here adding Allen allows Williams to move guys around a lot smoother.

Don't get me wrong I'm splitting hairs. I think they can easily make it work with Garrett. In my opinion, Allen seems a better fit.

I like Allen too. He's nastier and has an edge to him. Garrett has more upside, Allen is safer IMO. I'm good with either.

I don't get the Nassib love. A nice guy to have, so don't get me wrong, but he is pretty much a bull rusher. Those guys don't get many sacks simply by running over their opponent. They get most by what i call clean up sacks. Other guys pressure the QB who ends up stepping in to them.

I love Allen. He is going to be a great player. I just think Garrett will have more impact on rushing the QB. It won't be just him. I think Ogbah have a big uptick in his production with Garrett on the other side.

Personally, I don't think Garrett and Allen are all that close.

Garrett is an impact player at the second most important position on the field. He has the ability to change games. He gets OCs to devise schemes to try and neutralize him. I don't see Allen as that kind of player at all.

Picking one guy, with the assumption that another high first round pick will be there at 12 makes no sense to me. Thomas is very highly rated. And Barnett out of Tenn is too.


Yeah, I'm taking the best player in the draft and picking at 12 accordingly. Myles Garrett. Pow

Agreed. Allen is a safe, solid pick. But Garrett is a game changer.



Agreed. Nassib game on strong at the beginning of last year, and then he sort of was figured out. I remember reading an article where it said the DLine coach said he needed to learn another move.

Nassib is fine depth, but I don't think he's a starter. Garrett and Ogbah make a real good 1-2 DE Tandem. They're both bigger, athletic guys too. They should be able to be taught to set the edge.

I'm just thinking NY Giants with teh whole Strahan/Osi/Justin Tuck thing, or the Justin Tuck/JPP thing. That's a huge benefit to a defense. Huge. Then we pack in high motor big DTs. Like Shelton and another guy.

Badda bing, badda boom.

I did.

I said "what if" as in speculation.

A killer DE
A SS
A CB
A center
A RT

Hey, jump on the Allen bandwagon. The more the merrier. Allen is IMO the safer of the two players. And I see the same thing with the lineup you do.Could be very good. Now what if you add another pass rusher or DL in free agency or the draft to that lineup with those guys? Say Soloman Thomas at 12 or whoever you may like in the second round. Then what could Williams do? I do think Orchard will return to playing DE and away from LB where hes a bit stiff. But the guy was very good in that role at UTAH, playing DE even wide 9.

I personally think there are more options as pass rushers than 3-tech tackles - Barnett, McKinley, Harris, Williams to name just a few. Only 3-tech I can recall after Allen are Brantley, Watkins. I may be missing some but my feel is - there are more potential edge rushers than 3-techs but again which position will make the biggest impact?

Now the question is - what sum of parts makes the biggest impact? I really don't know.

You don't get the 20 seconds or so reading the above back. Sorry

Here is food for thought. Why is Garrett more an impact? He will face the oppositions best offensive lineman.

I have given this a little thought watching Donald and Suh. Is there, and I don't know, proof outside pressure better than inside, or is this another we been doing this for years so it must be best?

Most teams move their best pass rusher all around the line these days.

I'm curious why you have the impression that Allen safe/solid but Garrett a "game changer'?


I get the feeling that people know/have heard about Garrett but don't know a lot about Allen:

JONATHAN ALLEN

56 TKLS | 13 TFL's | 8.5 SACKS | 15 QB HURRIES | 60 PRESSURES | 2 PBU | 1 BLK KICK | 2 TD FUMBLE RTNS


Bednarik Award winner
Nagurski Award winner
Hendricks Award winner
SEC Defensive Player of the Year

Because he is an elite pass rusher that teams have to game plan against.

I would argue ditto for Allen.

I disagree. There is video evidence that teams ran away from Garret on almost every play. I haven't seen the same for Allen. If there is, will you please link it?

When all is said and done, I am not sure if Allen is picked in the top 5.

Why would it be automatically be their best lineman? Tons of teams have bad left tackles. He would certainly be going up against the most important lineman, especially if the QB is right-handed, but just because the LT is the most important lineman doesn't mean teams are fortunate enough to have their best lineman penciled in there.

I really am not trying to pick sides here. I would be equally ecstatic getting either guy. I keep picturing two stout DTs and know that a strong interior threat is a nice have. I'm visioning Sapp and McFarland.

I get teams run away from Garrett. Isn't that easier to do than an inside guy? Being Alabama is stacked how easy is it to game plan against one guy?

If you were comparing to a current or former player, who do you say Garrett is similar? Sorry, I hate this comparison thing, I'm simply curious where you are thinking on Garrett.

I see shades of Gerald McCoy when I watch Allen. Garrett I see DeMarcus Ware like.

Just put him at LE. Let one of ours guys devour the St Claires of the world.

I hate doing this, but he reminds me a lot of Bruce Smith w/his elite athleticism, bend, physique, explosion, and size. Garrret is a bit bigger, but so our other players of his generation, so I think it fits.

Hmmm, Bruce Smith...interesting. Thanks, I will give this some thought.

I've gone back and forth between the two a few times, and I can see the allure of Allen. However, I have a hard time pegging his traits. He doesn't have the length you want on the edge or the size you want inside. I've heard the Aaron Donald comp, but I'm not sure I really see it. I want to see it because who wouldn't want Aaron Donald on their team? There are similarities, but I'm not sure they are on the same level. I have a hard time figuring out how much of his stats are a result of scheme and the players around him. He got freed up by stunts and QBs would sometimes run into him when avoiding pressure from other Bama players. He did beat double teams, but at times it looks like both blockers drop off him thinking the other guy will have him when they feel pressure elsewhere. That's not to say he isn't a good player, I do think he is, but I'm not sure how good. I want to see how he does at the combine.

Allen does have eye catching splash plays, but as I dig deeper into the two I find myself looking more into the how they got to the end result. Allen does do a lot of good things to get there. I think Garrett had more "roadblocks" thrown in his way this season, and I think he will test great at the combine. We will have to take a look at Garrett's medical at the combine, too, but I don't think there will be anything long term there. We'll see how it goes.

I don't know I get torn on allen vs garrett. I think Allen next to Danny at DT positions will open things up for ogbah. I mean let's say we trade down to 2 or 3 in the draft and then take allen. Then we use what we got from that trade to move up from 12 and grab solomon. Allen is by far the best DT in this draft. Garrett is the best DE in this draft but unlike DT position there are a lot of very good DE in this years draft.

If we can turn garret into an extra 1st round THIS year and still land allen then I am all over it. I mean Allen plus Soloman or Barnet is awesome. It might even be possible to draft all three if the cards fell right.

Solomon, Allen, Danny, Barnett and Ogbah as the floater... that is a D-line from hell to defend. Every part of the defense would immediately improve as QBs spend their game running for their lives =)

I have them as equal prospects, same as Mayock and Phil Savage...I just arrived at the conclusion sooner


I'm not sure why? I don't see how scouting Allen would be different then any other prospect. *Shrugs* I just watch the tape and to me the tape is clear. Anyhow here's my quick sum of Allen from Dec:




You mean that YOU want. He certainly has enough for me.


Fair enough. But if you don't see the comp and you don't say why you don't see the comp...I'm not sure how to really discuss it?

I consider this a very spurious knock that gets thrown around during draft season. While stats are certainly a part of the draft evaluation they take a back seat to attributes. And attributes are evident with or without statistical production.

But, even in the case of doubting Allen's production because of team talent you have to realize that all prospects that come from power programs have always shared that same knock throughout history.

And we discussed this before but Allen actually played with less front 7 talent this year then he did last year.
Last year he played with Chris Jones and Daran Reed both went to the NFL. If the knock of playing with surrounding talent didn't apply to them when they all played together why should it be leveled on Allen playing without them?

When I watch Allen I see a high skilled DL technician. When asked to play 2-gaps he holds his ground and once he finds the ball he easily tosses OL around to free himself and relentlessly pursues. When penetrating he's quick off the ball and can win with power, speed or hand work. He destroys single blocks, split doubles, can anchor vs doubles, can stunt and he can play every spot on the DL.

And by all accounts he is a leader.

Both he and Garrett are very good prospects.
And again I have them on the same tier/virtually equal prospects.
If I was the GM for this team and looking at the scheme, team deficiencies and depth of this draft I would take Allen.

Re: traits

Allen is strong, but how strong? He's quick, but how quick? It doesn't quite jump off the screen like Garrett. He does use good technique to get the most out of what he has. I want to see how he does at the combine. I think there is a chance he underwhelms there, but I'll wait and see.

I have him close to Garrett, too, but I'm not ready to go all in yet.

Re: size/length

What I want? It seems to be pretty standard that more length on the edge is better, all else being equal. It is the same for size on the inside. Allen isn't really the "ideal" at either spot.

Re: Donald comp

They are similar, so I get the comp, but I'm not convinced he's as good or ever will be. Could he be? Possibly, but I don't think he's necessarily as athletically gifted. Again, I want to see the combine numbers.

Re: Surrounding talent

Jones went to Mississippi St. It was Robinson and Reed at Bama. I don't agree with the less talent take. You seem to be assuming that the players still at Bama didn't get any better. Plus, I think Alabama called things more aggressively this year since the coordinator change/Smart getting a HC gig.

I also don't see as much evidence of teams gameplanning against Allen as I did Garrett. I'm not sure Allen ends up the best player in the NFL from his team out of this draft class. Williams, Foster, and Humphrey have all been projected as high 1st rounders. On the other hand, Garrett was clearly the best player on his team in my eyes, and other teams knew it, too.

I want to see how Allen does on a "level playing field" at the combine where he's evaluated solely on his own. I know the games isn't played in tights and it won't change a ton about what I think on him, but it may be the difference between him being a good NFL player and a great one.

Re: Summary

I agree that he did those things well in college. I'm not sure he'll be as effective against NFL players.

I like Allen and do think he's "safe". I'm not sure how much better he can get.

I have him ranked highly, but those are my concerns that keep me from pushing him to the top.

Mayock has a higher grade on Garrett.

We need a top notch pass rusher in the worst way. Someone that the other team has to game plan for. In my 50 years as a Browns fan I can't remember anyone like that on our Browns. If he is that type of player take him. I'll bet the Pats would if they had the #1 pick and we all know they draft a lot better than we ever did.

Chip Banks was a pretty good pass rusher and Jamar Miller had that one monster season for us, but yeah, we really have been lacking in that department for a long, long time.

Did you watch the youtube clip?

Did you listen to Mayock's interview?

Why do you think Mayock has a higher grade?