I would like you to support your claim with something more then empty rhetoric.
If you actually watched the youtube vid or listened to the interview you would hear Mayock himself say that either Allen or Garrett should be the number 1 pick.
What do you have to support your claim that Mayock has Garrett rated higher?
Maybe you aren't aware but Mayock and other draft analyst update their rankings as they go through more film. That article is from 28 Jan.
This article below is from 15 Feb and the youtube and interview you didnt watch and listen to are more recent:
CLEVELAND, Ohio - NFL Network's Mike Mayock doesn't believe any of the quarterbacks are worth the No. 1 pick, and that the Browns should draft Jonathan Allen or Myles Garrett first overall.
"If I'm Cleveland sitting at one - remember last year they traded down several times, they amassed a bunch of picks which is great,'' Mayock said Tuesday night on Total Access. "But this year I think you want to sit at one and get a difference-maker. It's a tremendous defensive draft. I don't think there is a quarterback worthy of number one so I would be looking at two guys.
"Either Jonathan Allen, the defensive tackle from Alabama, or the big defensive end Myles Garrett from Texas A&M. I think Garrett affects the game on the outside. I think Allen affects the game on the inside. It's a pass-first league and I think the Browns in that new Gregg Williams scheme, that four-man front, one of those two guys would fit beautifully."
Also those grades that you mention are NOT Mike Mayock's grades. Those are nfl.com grades. Big difference.
Someone posted that earlier I didn't correct them then but now that it's come up and you mentioned it I'm going to correct it now so as to avoid further confusion.
The grades listed on nfl.com site are not Mike Mayock grades.
Re: traits Allen is strong, but how strong? He's quick, but how quick?
I can only tell you what I see on film to answer your questions above.
Allen is strong enough on tape that I can see him anchor against double teams, strong enough to effectively win with a bull/power rush, strong enough to hold up OG/OT and toss them aside once he identifies the ball carrier.
Quick enough to win with speed on the edge, split double teams, win while stunting and has exceptionally quick and powerful hands.
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Re: size/length What I want? It seems to be pretty standard that more length on the edge is better, all else being equal. It is the same for size on the inside. Allen isn't really the "ideal" at either spot.
I view him as 3-tech not an edge player. Would you agree that he Allen fits in the range of 3-tech height/weight?
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...Possibly, but I don't think he's necessarily as athletically gifted. Again, I want to see the combine numbers.
I can tell you right now that Allen isn't going to time as fast as Donald....that dude was freakishly fast. But, he should be in acceptable range for 3-tech DT.
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Re: Surrounding talent Jones went to Mississippi St. It was Robinson and Reed at Bama. I don't agree with the less talent take.You seem to be assuming that the players still at Bama didn't get any better.
You are right it was Robinson and Reed and both were second round picks. They are gone. That to me is a clear drop in talent. And on the flip side when R & R were in the draft was playing with Allen held against them? For me you evaluate the player's abilities. Judging players by circumstance is to me is anecdotal and speculative...which for me is unnecessary because we can just watch the film.
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I also don't see as much evidence of teams gameplanning against Allen as I did Garrett.
Completely disagree here. Allen was often doubled and teams wanted to scheme against him but his versatility helped combat that. --------------------------------------------------------
To kinda get this thread back on track to the OP what did you think the biggest needs are from the draft?
To add to what edromeo said watch the Alabama/USC tape where he goes against the 360+ pound Zach Banner, he moves him around pretty good for giving up 70+ pounds. That shows how strong he is.
To add to what edromeo said watch the Alabama/USC tape where he goes against the 360+ pound Zach Banner, he moves him around pretty good for giving up 70+ pounds. That shows how strong he is.
Banner is #73 and played RT. Allen primarily lined up against the LT #70, Sophomore Chuma Edoga who is listed at 290. Allen uses more leverage and technique than brute strength. NFL players are better with leverage and technique than the guys he went up against. I want to see his bench and jumps to see how he does.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Doesn't Garrett play against the same slow college fatties,as you say? I gin't really understand your argument. And I was referring to how he was able to move a mountain of a man that if he got his hands on you you didn't move, except Allen did move him. I think that showed his strength off very well. Don't see how you can dismiss that it didn't. And It wasn't just Banner, he tossed around a lot of Olinemen. Just used him as an example cause he is so massive.
Re: traits Allen is strong, but how strong? He's quick, but how quick?
I can only tell you what I see on film to answer your questions above.
Allen is strong enough on tape that I can see him anchor against double teams, strong enough to effectively win with a bull/power rush, strong enough to hold up OG/OT and toss them aside once he identifies the ball carrier.
Quick enough to win with speed on the edge, split double teams, win while stunting and has exceptionally quick and powerful hands.
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Re: size/length What I want? It seems to be pretty standard that more length on the edge is better, all else being equal. It is the same for size on the inside. Allen isn't really the "ideal" at either spot.
I view him as 3-tech not an edge player. Would you agree that he Allen fits in the range of 3-tech height/weight?
Quote:
...Possibly, but I don't think he's necessarily as athletically gifted. Again, I want to see the combine numbers.
I can tell you right now that Allen isn't going to time as fast as Donald....that dude was freakishly fast. But, he should be in acceptable range for 3-tech DT.
Quote:
Re: Surrounding talent Jones went to Mississippi St. It was Robinson and Reed at Bama. I don't agree with the less talent take.You seem to be assuming that the players still at Bama didn't get any better.
You are right it was Robinson and Reed and both were second round picks. They are gone. That to me is a clear drop in talent. And on the flip side when R & R were in the draft was playing with Allen held against them? For me you evaluate the player's abilities. Judging players by circumstance is to me is anecdotal and speculative...which for me is unnecessary because we can just watch the film.
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I also don't see as much evidence of teams gameplanning against Allen as I did Garrett.
Completely disagree here. Allen was often doubled and teams wanted to scheme against him but his versatility helped combat that. --------------------------------------------------------
To kinda get this thread back on track to the OP what did you think the biggest needs are from the draft?
Whether Allen fits the range for 3-tech depends on what he actually weighs in at.
Reed and Robinson both went later than predicted for most of the draft's lead up, so maybe surrounding talent was held against them.
Allen was double teamed at times, but often it seemed coincidental. He'd stunt and there would be two guys sitting there and they'd be confused about who should pick him up, and he made them look like Cam Erving. It's not a bad thing, but just about all NFL players can beat Cam Erving. OL play in college is rather underwhelming.
Teams were having a TE and and RB watch Garrett on passing downs, and they almost always ran to the opposite side of the field.
Teams ran in Allen's direction more often.
As far as the original topic, we need a QB (which doesn't look to have a plug and play option this draft), a better pass rush, and better safety play.
Garrett seems the best way to address the pass rush to me. Allen may be the best 3-tech, but I think Garrett is a better edge rusher than Allen is an interior rusher.
As far as the best pairing, it is hard to speculate. If S. Thomas makes it to 12, I'd take him and Garrett over Allen and Barnett. Or Hooker/Adams could make it to 12 to address safety.
There's also a chance we pick up someone like Easley in FA to add interior pass rush.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Whether Allen fits the range for 3-tech depends on what he actually weighs in at.
Allen's listed weight puts him in the range for 3-tech. You can question any prospects listed height/weight they are all in doubt unless previous verified at the SB.
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Reed and Robinson both went later than predicted for most of the draft's lead up, so maybe surrounding talent was held against them.
Going later then you may have thought doesn't change my overall point about the surrounding talent. Losing both his DL mates to the 2nd round in the NFL draft is clearly a drop in talent.
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Allen was double teamed at times, but often it seemed coincidental...He'd stunt and there would be two guys sitting there and they'd be confused about who should pick him up, and he made them look like Cam Erving. It's not a bad thing, but just about all NFL players can beat Cam Erving. OL play in college is rather underwhelming.
You can nit-pick any prospect. Allen was doubled often i'm not even sure what a coincidental double team is supposed to mean.
Stunts work because of the very reason you describe but it still requires the person stunting to win. It doesn't make sense to me to knock a prospect for winning when he stunts. Nor does it make sense to knock the OL play when discussing Allen when it applies to any prospect.
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Teams were having a TE and and RB watch Garrett on passing downs, and they almost always ran to the opposite side of the field.
Mean while Allen is getting doubled by Offensive lineman, I'm sure he would have loved to be "doubled" by TE and RBs.
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Teams ran in Allen's direction more often.
NO! Teams ran in Garrett's direction more often!
^^J/k, but I don't want to descend into that type of back and forth.
Unless we are gonna back it up with numbers then I don't think we should express our impressions as facts. You know how I watch film, I count stuff and for me I think Allen faced more doubles then the Garrett film I watched. We can agree to disagree.
But, coming into this season Garrett's run defense was widely considered a weak spot in his game that he improved whereas Allen has always been a strong run defender.
Doesn't Garrett play against the same slow college fatties,as you say? I gin't really understand your argument. And I was referring to how he was able to move a mountain of a man that if he got his hands on you you didn't move, except Allen did move him. I think that showed his strength off very well. Don't see how you can dismiss that it didn't. And It wasn't just Banner, he tossed around a lot of Olinemen. Just used him as an example cause he is so massive.
Ok...most miss matches are due to speed...ergo my remark about the fatties...who btw is my affectionate term for my OLmen...lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Whether Allen fits the range for 3-tech depends on what he actually weighs in at.
Allen's listed weight puts him in the range for 3-tech. You can question any prospects listed height/weight they are all in doubt unless previous verified at the SB.
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Reed and Robinson both went later than predicted for most of the draft's lead up, so maybe surrounding talent was held against them.
Going later then you may have thought doesn't change my overall point about the surrounding talent. Losing both his DL mates to the 2nd round in the NFL draft is clearly a drop in talent.
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Allen was double teamed at times, but often it seemed coincidental...He'd stunt and there would be two guys sitting there and they'd be confused about who should pick him up, and he made them look like Cam Erving. It's not a bad thing, but just about all NFL players can beat Cam Erving. OL play in college is rather underwhelming.
You can nit-pick any prospect. Allen was doubled often i'm not even sure what a coincidental double team is supposed to mean.
Stunts work because of the very reason you describe but it still requires the person stunting to win. It doesn't make sense to me to knock a prospect for winning when he stunts. Nor does it make sense to knock the OL play when discussing Allen when it applies to any prospect.
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Teams were having a TE and and RB watch Garrett on passing downs, and they almost always ran to the opposite side of the field.
Mean while Allen is getting doubled by Offensive lineman, I'm sure he would have loved to be "doubled" by TE and RBs.
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Teams ran in Allen's direction more often.
NO! Teams ran in Garrett's direction more often!
^^J/k, but I don't want to descend into that type of back and forth.
Unless we are gonna back it up with numbers then I don't think we should express our impressions as facts. You know how I watch film, I count stuff and for me I think Allen faced more doubles then the Garrett film I watched. We can agree to disagree.
But, coming into this season Garrett's run defense was widely considered a weak spot in his game that he improved whereas Allen has always been a strong run defender.
Good convo, either way.
At another school losing 2 2nd rounders might result in a drop in the level of play around someone. At Alabama, not so much. They are likely to have 7 players from the defense drafted in the first 4 rounds this year. Humphrey, Allen, Tomlinson, Foster, Williams, Anderson, and Jackson. Bama has 5 star recruits backing up 5 star recruits backing up 5 star recruits (maybe a slight exaggeration). Definitely one of the schools that reloads rather than rebuilds.
As far as double teams I guess I should have been more specific. Teams had the tackle block Garrett, while having a RB and TE help, while rolling the QB to the other side and running quick developing routes.
By coincidental I mean, not by design. The OL was often protecting an area/zone and Allen ended up between two of the zones, thus getting double teamed. With Garrett it seemed multiple people were headed his direction at the snap. (or they were running the opposite direction) Not an absolute thing, but it seemed a trend.
I tried to track down the numbers regarding which directions teams ran against Bama and Texas A&M but I couldn't find anything. Was just kind of a cursory search as this semester is keeping me busy. Not sure how much it would mean as Allen moves around a good bit anyways. It just seems a lot more obvious that teams are running away from Garrett quite frequently.
I like both players. I'm just leaning Garrett.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Just because a team runs away from a player doesn't mean they're amazing at run defense... Prior to this year he wasn't highly regarded as a run stuffer, but proved people wrong this year. But is that because he had a limited sample size? I'll kill a horse defending Garrett's KSU game, but he didn't look good against the run at all.
Yes people ran it towards Allen a lot more, and what did he show on those running plays? That he will throw a LT 3 yards upfield and hit a running back. Dude's a beast. Don't hold it against him.
At another school losing 2 2nd rounders might result in a drop in the level of play around someone. At Alabama, not so much.
That just makes Alabama like any of the other powerhouse schools that produce NFL talent (Ohio State, Michigan, LSU, Clemson etc).
But the fact remains that specifically on his DL he lost 2 NFL 2nd round draft picks. Regardless of what school that is a direct loss in talent that directly impacts his position. In that respect I don't see the knock of surrounding talent applies, Allen played with less DL talent this year then last year.
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By coincidental I mean, not by design.
Completely disagree. Teams didn't double Allen by accident.
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I like both players. I'm just leaning Garrett.
I like both players too. But I lean towards Allen.
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