I once heard their system described as: "a physical force that acts upon the ears, brain and body in equal measure. A physical presence."
I did Luciano Pavarotti's farewell tour at The Palace in the mid-90's. The sound guys were NYC pros. 'Top of the industry' personnel. We had 2 rehearsals the day before: The AM rehearsal was a 'sound check' gig... we'd play 1-2 minutes of various spots in tunes. Loud climaxes. Quiet spots in the middle of tunes. Spots that featured percussion, both loud and soft. Same with brass, strings, and woodwinds. The playing was boring/tedious, but watching the sound guys' process was totally fascinating. 3 hours, and they not only had the entire orch mixed beautifully, they also had the entire PA system tuned to the space- even folks in the cheap seats were treated to better sound than most of them had in their homes!
The second rehearsal was with Luciano... and ran like a traditional rehearsal: full tunes, start to finish- with a couple stops along the way to fix minor playing problems. Cool thing was: during reh #2, they were recording us on a dig/aud hard drive (high-end/cutting-edge at the time) directly off the board, and would run us back through the PA during breaks in the rehearsal. When we heard: "Break. Players take 10," we'd all run up into the seats to hear the playback.
The 'big ticket' seats were on the Piston's playing court. The 'cheap seats' were all the stands. I got a beautiful, blended stereo when sitting on the court. In the nosebleed sections... it was crisp and clear, but mono. There were no bad seats for that concert.
It was amazing to watch those guys tune a pro basketball venue into a concert hall that day. Unforgettable.
You're right about that. I saw Pink Floyd there in the late 80's.
grumblegrumblegrumble/jealousjealousjealous....
One of the things they didn't tell me, when I was studying to become A Playa:
"If you're lucky enough to get a job as a performer, you'll never be an audience member again."
A slight exaggeration, but I can't count the number of great gigs I've missed because of my 'work hours'....
In the early-'90's, I lived 4 exactly blocks from the Stranahan- and had to drive past a gathering pre-concert 'ELP Reunion Tour' crowd to go play a Classics Concert at the Peristyle. I could have avoided the whole thing, and took Reynolds Road to The A.W. Trail into town... but I wanted to see what I was misssing.
Played that concert like Genghis Khan: pizzed-off and vengeful. Not a good look for me...
My first major concert besides the Cleveland orchestra, at least that made a big impression on me, was Pink Floyd at Municipal Stadium when I was in 7th grade, which would have been about 1994 (93?) or so. All other concerts since then are against that as TE standard. My dad took us. It was awesome.
Also took us to see Arlo Guthrie outdoors somewhere when I was younger but I was too young to really be into it.
Dawg: that whole weekend was Pure Drama, from start to finish.
There was a point when we weren't sure LP was even gonna do the gig. He muffed a passage in rehearsal- and toddled his fat azz off the stage. No explanation at all to us grunts.
They eventually dragged him out of his trailer to finish the rehearsal. 40 minutes of 'playa down-time.' 40 minutes of overtime paid out on that paycheck, son. That was Friday. On Saturday eve, we still didn't know whether he'd actually do the gig.
Dude nailed it. Fans were screaming. But it was dicey all weekend.
______________
His entourage... damn. I've never seen so many fiiiiiineazz women congregated in a confined space in my entire life! Italian supermodels, 'a-list' groupies... it was a trip. 'Wretched excess'- taken to the extreme.
It was almost enough to tempt this 'Southern Baptist Son Of Slaves' to The Darkside.
You backed up Pavarotti? I knew you were an accomplished musician, but that's kinda like like Robert Plant calling me up and telling he needs a guitar player to cut an album with, and would I be interested? Holy jumping jeezers....
I too having seen many Dead shows have been to some fine venues across this land, however, I never made it to Red Rocks or the Gorge. I do have a soft spot for Alpine Valley Wisconsin, however, as it was the first of many road trips to see them. We also camped for several days as they would often play 2 or 3 nights.
I have also seen some incredible gigs in various venues across Europe. A few notables to mention....Union Chapel in London. An old Victorian church built in a gothic style that now also hosts gigs. I saw Mazzy Star and Sparklehorse there and it was....sublime. Royal Albert Hall in London is absolutely breathtaking (although not brilliant sound for a rock gig as it was built for classical) and I have also seen gigs at both the Melkweg and Paradiso in Amsterdam, The Elysee Montmartre in Paris and Vicar Street in Dublin which are all notable venues that were beautiful, incredible and made the gig quite special.
(Some of it is crazier than a bedbug. On one tune, this gal had to point the mouthpiece of her french horn into a mic, and sing into the bell, while pressing down the keys to her instrument! Creepywildazz sound that I can't describe in words.)
No, Zappa's a prince in 'modern classical music' circles. Perhaps not one of the kings, but mostly because he didn't stay in academia- but certainly a prince... and considered important in the late-20th c writing fraternity. Rock instruments got used, but there was some serious writing going on there.
Being a musician of sorts I've been blessed/cursed with a mind that while listening to pop I'm also breaking it down, learning, studying trying to understand the music and how it fits within' the theory. Many times my musician friends would ask me, "What do you think of this or that song?", but I wouldn't know what song they were talking about. I wasn't hearing the lyrics, just the music. Often times, once I knew what song they were talking about I'd go - "Crap yeah!, I lived that song for several years." By lived it, I mean I had been submerged in the music.
Zappa was an entirely different listen. His stuff was so far over my head I couldn't begin to figure any of it out. My mind couldn't lock-in the way it did, on it's own, for typical pop music. What this did for me was allow me to follow the journey without the interruption of studying it. I couldn't study it. It was a breath of fresh air like listening to any other classical tunes. All I could do was lay back and let it flow. That is very refreshing for an overworked mind.
I have total respect for Zappa but, I don't listen to him often. My favorite album of his being 'Apostrophe'. We wore that album out in college so it is the one I know the most.
How about Captain Beefheart? Less of a household name than Zappa but, his band, The Magic Band, were equally as wild, eclectic and completely off the wall. "Trout Mask Replica" is not a record I can listen to for enjoyment but, wow...it was quite something when it came out and is quite something even for today! Not sure if it is an enjoyable something but, talk about creative inspiration and ahead of their time!
The BBC did a killer documentary on Beefheart (Don Van Vliet) as he gave up music and focused on painting. But, the documentary was fascinating talking about his band, his music, the infamous "TMR" album and his paintings.
I promise that I don't mean to be offensive on this one, but I never got into the Dead as so many people.
As a music lover, the Dead were always getting a lot of love from "the intellectual sect." It was like they were this ultra-cool, innovative group that only cool people got.
When I first heard them, I changed the channel. However, after hearing over and over about how great they were, I made an honest attempt to see what the big deal was about.
I'm sorry, I still don't get it. I think they are extremely overrated.
With that said, I understand a couple of things here:
--I am far from a musical expert and that might be the reason I don't understand their greatness.
--Musical tastes and opinions are very subjective, so I promise I am not knocking anyone who likes them.
I do like to think that I have an eclectic taste in music. I mean......I love rock legends like Floyd and Zeppelin, Motown, Classical Music, almost all blues, old-time jazz, smooth jazz, Frank Sinatra and other greats of that era, storytellers like Dylan, Young, Croce, Chapin, Lightfoot, etc
I'm just perplexed why so many people [not saying anyone on here is doing this] act like the Dead are the greatest of all-time.
Just my opinion, but I think, to enjoy the Dead, you need to be drunk off your ass, or high as a kite.
I think that explains a lot.
Funny. Actually the Dead sobered me up. I stopped drinking while on tour. Never really went back. I also 'sobered' up after a deep loss in my life took a lot of the joy from my heart. The Dead and the community of people I met re-lite my fire for life. But thanks for playing off an entire American institution as, 'because stoners'.
Anyway. The Dead certainly aren't for everyone. Most of their albums are not very accessible to the non initiated. I started out listening to Europe '72, then Without a Net. Then I saw my first show. I enjoyed it but often times found myself wondering what I was listen to. Was it jazz? It was freeform like that. Was it blues? Sometimes. Was it something that completely stepped out side of any genre? At times was it even music?....the answer came to me at my forth show. I remember hearing the band communicating on stage through gesture as they wound through a jam...I realized they were all those things. Jazz, blues, and everything in between and at times not even music at all. Just sound describing vast spaces. I 'got it'.
Most of their albums are not very accessible to the non initiated.
This is the type of statement that I was referring to.
Not liking the arrogance.
Nothing arrogant about it. Honestly, don't read too much into it nor add anything more or less to what Portland is saying. All he is saying is they are very much a live band. If you never saw them live you are missing out on so much of what made them so great. They could never replicate that magic in the studio. No matter how good "American Beauty" is....it comes nowhere close to their live shows. Even listening to a live show in your living room isn't the same as actually being there feeling the flow of their music.
I say this as somebody who would never consider myself a "Deadhead" but, I did see them a lot. I like them, hell....I love them, but, they are definitely not my favorite band. Not even close. But, I totally "get them". If I hadn't seen them live....not sure if I would "get them" either.
Sometimes, sentences like that aren't meant to be taken as demeaning in any way. As soon as I read it, I understood what was really behind it. There really is music out there that is so unusual that it takes time and effort to re-calibrate one's aesthetics in order to hear what's there.
Case in point: we used to host Easter and Thanksgiving for my wife's family. At dinner, I'd always put on some cool Jazz 50's/60's Miles, Bill Evans, Chet Baker in the background. After years of hearing this music, my Pops-In-Law asked: "What do you get from this music? One guy's doing something weird over here, some other guy's doing something completely different- it all just sounds like chaos to me."
How do I explain how piano/bass/drums all work together to support the soloist? How do I explain whay you only hear the melody at the start and end of the piece? How do I explain how the solos relate to the chords he heard at the beginning?
George didn't "get" the music because he hadn't gone through the process of discovering each of the elements of Jazz and how they relate. And George was not a stupid man. To get him to where Jazz lovers live, I'd have to sit him down and actually teach him how to listen. Not just hear- really listen. With concentration. And intent. It would probably take me a week of daily sessions, 2 hours each to get him there, but ain't nobody got time for that, you know?
So for him, Jazz was an 'audible mess' until the day he died.
I really think it was meant in this spirit, not a condescending one. Typed words on a message board are a poor substitute for facial expression and tone of voice.
Most of their albums are not very accessible to the non initiated.
This is the type of statement that I was referring to.
Not liking the arrogance.
Sorry. No arrogance meant.
I merely meant that their albums are 'weird' and don't capture much of the impromptu strangeness that was the Grateful Dead. Hell, I don't like most of their albums and I'm a huge fan. Many of their albums were over produced, Terrapin Station is a great example. Others are just them with an open studio and a desire to learn everything all at once, Anthem of the Sun. They do have more accessible albums. Meaning more tuned to a general consumer ear. Workingman's Dead, and American Beauty 'bridge the gap' to a more popular sound. Honestly much of the Dead's own music falls outside of a typical box that most non fans just don't like it. It's not pop, it's not rock and roll, it's not...I don't know what to call it really. But I like it.
So it's not snobbery on my part. It's more I can't make you understand why I like it, cuz I don't necessarily know, other than I do. But I can also see why some don't like it. It's inaccessible to those on the 'outside'...all are welcome.
Okay, can either of you explain what this really means?
Quote:
Most of their albums are not very accessible to the non initiated.
Dude...live is about all members of a band playing in sync right there and totally in the moment. It depends on literally every member being totally in the same groove musically, spiritually, artistically. In the studio....you cut a track, you stop, you start, you re-cut it, re-record, you mix, you add this, add that, you produce, you bring in backing vocals, you re-record a guitar solo. Often you may not be in the same room as you rband you are listening to headphones and laying down your part. Things then come together in the studio with the produce. It is totally different. Some bands are awesome at the studio thing....others are strictly live bands.
The Grateful Dead came alive on the stage and it opened up and the music was both incredibly expansive yet also was allowed to breathe. Sometimes even in the most silent moments it was expansive and full three-dimensional. In the studio, however, they were "confined" and restricted. They couldn't find that zone to interact with each other or to pull one song into another....it just became somewhat two dimensional.
Okay, can either of you explain what this really means?
Quote:
Most of their albums are not very accessible to the non initiated.
Dude...live is about all members of a band playing in sync right there and totally in the moment. It depends on literally every member being totally in the same groove musically, spiritually, artistically. In the studio....you cut a track, you stop, you start, you re-cut it, re-record, you mix, you add this, add that, you produce, you bring in backing vocals, you re-record a guitar solo. Often you may not be in the same room as you rband you are listening to headphones and laying down your part. Things then come together in the studio with the produce. It is totally different. Some bands are awesome at the studio thing....others are strictly live bands.
The Grateful Dead came alive on the stage and it opened up and the music was both incredibly expansive yet also was allowed to breathe. Sometimes even in the most silent moments it was expansive and full three-dimensional. In the studio, however, they were "confined" and restricted. They couldn't find that zone to interact with each other or to pull one song into another....it just became somewhat two dimensional.
Aarrrggghhh............Now, I am back to my earlier point of the arrogance of Dead fans.
Like I said earlier..........musical taste is subjective. I have ZERO problems w/people loving the Dead, but I personally don't care for them and don't like the arrogant tone of some of their supporters.
The Dead in their most powerful were a wickedly strange weirdly dark band between the songs.
They were also incredibly organic...."shapes" became notes, melodies and eventually songs. That may sound totally pretentious to you Vers but, Vers dude....it really is the only way I can describe the live Dead experience. Nothing arrogant just something that had to be experienced rather than in one's living room on the tape deck or turntable.
A coworker of mine recently introduced me to Phish. They're a bit jammy like the Dead, but I appreciate them. I anticipate to listen to a lot of them this summer.
A coworker of mine recently introduced me to Phish. They're a bit jammy like the Dead, but I appreciate them. I anticipate to listen to a lot of them this summer.
I hear they put on a phenomenal show.
I dont really care for jam bands, but went to a Phish show a few years ago with a buddy of mone who is a fan, and had a good time. I think they are much like the dead in that they are much better live.
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
First concert was Rush on Permanent Waves tour, 1979; San Diego Sports Arena. Special guest 38 Special. Did not buy the tickets, but you used to be able to get tickets for about ten bucks. First of many concerts in the starting in 79 through the late 80s
I've seen Phish 6 or 7 times. The last time was well over a decade ago. While I appreciate their musicianship I struggle to connect with them deeper. Their lyrics don't do anything for me. It often seems like they're afterthoughts. Meaning the band writes these crazy, off rhythm, unwieldy songs, then has to try to force lyrics into them. So they do just that. No story, no attempt at something to think about. Just words in time to music. As I tell my Phish fan friends. I tried Phish on. They didn't fit.
Trey Anistasio, the lead guitarist for Phish, plays solo gigs with a side band, The Trey Anistasio Band. One of my favorite concert experiences was at the first Bonarroo. Trey's band closed out the weekend. A great show. A stage filled with horns, percussionists, keys, a full full stage of musicians. The sound was rich and thick.
I've seen Phish 6 or 7 times. The last time was well over a decade ago. While I appreciate their musicianship I struggle to connect with them deeper. Their lyrics don't do anything for me. It often seems like they're afterthoughts. Meaning the band writes these crazy, off rhythm, unwieldy songs, then has to try to force lyrics into them. So they do just that. No story, no attempt at something to think about. Just words in time to music. As I tell my Phish fan friends. I tried Phish on. They didn't fit.
I have many Dead friends who have tried to get me to understand the cult of Phish but, it just doesn't work for me. I have tried, trust me, but I have never seen them live. However, I have live tapes given to me, I have gone to watch live streams (most recently was a VT benefit gig they did for after the VT floods) but, it just does nothing for me.
However, as I said above with the Dead....I always liked the Dead but, was never as totally focused just on them as some of my friends. Some of my friends to this day that is ALL they listen to. Literally. I was constantly listening to other bands and when we were following the Dead from city to city I would always check out the local record store and bring things back and show it off to my buddies like it was Christmas morning. I was obsessive about the records not warping in the car or my friends feet kicking them while on our road trips. So, they always used to give me a hard time about the weird records I bought and being OCD about them.
Now those guys are all into Phish and they were convinced I would be too but....as Vers said about the Dead...."I just don't get it". Or, maybe I just don't wish to invest my time and energy into getting it? One or the other.
Just my opinion, but I think, to enjoy the Dead, you need to be drunk off your ass, or high as a kite.
I think that explains a lot.
Funny. Actually the Dead sobered me up. I stopped drinking while on tour. Never really went back. I also 'sobered' up after a deep loss in my life took a lot of the joy from my heart. The Dead and the community of people I met re-lite my fire for life. But thanks for playing off an entire American institution as, 'because stoners'.
Sorry. My statement, upon re-reading it, well, I can see how you, or others, may have taken it as a slam.
Quote:
Anyway. The Dead certainly aren't for everyone.
This sentence of yours sums it up for me.
I don't care for their music. It's just that simple.
As I said, I tried Phish on. Just didn't fit. But I gave it 6 or 7 shows to try to sink its hooks. Around show 4 or 5 there was a moment where I sort of 'felt it'. So I tried again a couple more times. Nope. Trey is a bit too showy for my tastes. As I tell my phriends, it's Trey's "crescendo to nowhere". Musical masturbation.
So I ended up finding Widespread Panic. They wrote songs. Told stories. Even with that it took time. JB's voice isn't pretty. They write weird dark songs, like Nebulous, and Immitation Leather Shoes. Their music isn't radio friendly. But I implore any music fan to put on their album, Till the Medicine Takes, from the opening track, and not be able to appreciate their talent. Or listen to songs like Fishwater, or Little Kin and not dig the dark southern sound. I saw them about three times before it was like a switch went off. I was hooked. From 1997-2002 I'd never loved a band more. Then Michael Houser, their lead guitarist, died of pancreatic cancer at too young an age. The band plays on to this day but their sound has changed so much I just don't find the same joy in it. One of my favorite Panic shows was up in Seattle. Trey Anistasio came out on stage, to everyone's surprise, and tore the roof off the place. Playing a couple songs and jamming. Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here was one of them. But the jam they went into after that song...so so good. Here's a link to a quality stream of that show if anyone is interested. http://www.panicstream.com/vault/widespread-panic-10162001-seattle-wa/ Track 16 is the jam I referred to above.
Did you know that he actually wrote out traditional full conductor's scores for lots of those tunes? Every note for every instrument. Including dynamic variances, individual note attack indications, and specific tempo markings. Every single sound depicted in ink on paper. Think about that, when you listen to something like "Igor's Boogie."
Yeah when I saw Zappa his usual bass player had some sort of issue and they had a stand in to play bass. 1974 I think, in Clev. He read from sheet music and had a conductor. I'm not sure who the conductor was but he focused just on the bass player helping him turn the sheet music and hand conducting. It was interesting to watch. Didn't seem to miss a note.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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