DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Thee Cody Kessler Thread

I'd like to see Kessler stay healthy and start all year just to see what we have in him before moving forward with anyone else. SIck of the musical chairs at QB. I personally think he will be at least serviceable and has the ceiling of a lower end franchise guy like Dalton.

I have no problem if he stinks it up bad this year as I think there are a few Franchise QBs in next years draft eligible class. This is no slight to Kizer, but we have to plan for the worst case and hope for the best.

You brought up the Oline...

I don't see where anyone on this board is doing that. The CK 'optimists' are saying that they want to see more before labeling him...the CK 'pessimists' have already determined that he's nothing more than a backup or below-average starter.

Cody has said himself that he has many things to improve upon... his comments mirror Hue's in that regard. So he knows what he needs to do...now we will see if he can do it.

Hue Jackson - ever the optimist - had this to say recently:

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...a0-f71f5969fbea

Head coach Hue Jackson on Saturday said second-year quarterback Cody Kessler will open OTAs next week as the team’s No. 1 signal-caller, adding that the former USC standout made significant improvement during the offseason.

“That’s really why I brought his name up first,” Jackson said. “He’s really improved. He’s worked his tail off. He deserves the right and the opportunity to walk into this building and walk out there first.”

Nice post. Not all on the o-line, but wow. Hard to succeed with that type of cast for any QB.

I think it was wise that Hue virtually made it his job to lose. It's now Cody's turn to prove to Hue he can cut it and show improvement on the areas needed. He's got a lot "assets" to work with this year than he was granted last (even minus TP) that I think all can benefit from with a better structured o-line. Those FA signings were very key for us IMO.

This is his chance. He really has zero room to lay off the throttle IMO.

Fair point Vers. To be clear, I'm certainly not pretending the Oline was the cause of his problems but I'd say that the Oline perhaps compounded his problems.

At the end of the day, his unwillingness to go deep was an issue and I'd agree with you that he struggled in his willingness to pull the trigger on deeper shots. I feel like this could (hopefully) be a rookie problem as he's not used to the tighter windows that he has to throw through compared to the college level. It was actually worse when Hue called him out on it as I remember the following game he just started launching rainbow ducks that my grandmother could pick off.

He says he's made some adjustments to get more velocity on throws. Hopefully that, plus a year of experience, gives him the confidence to push defences a bit more.

At the end of the day, he's not a guy with cannon but its also not a Ken Dorsey pop gun. If he can maximize his skill set and continue to advance the mental side of the game, then I think he can be effective. If not, we'll see Kizer a lot sooner than most will be comfortable with.

My hunch is that he will be better this year and will remain the starter so long as he's healthy for 2017.

The O-line probably was responsible for some of Cody's problems as it was a problem for all our qb's last year. However, the biggest problem was he was forced to play too soon because of all our injuries and was not ready to play. It's as simple as that. He may be just a back up or if he has improved could be serviceable. Personally, because he's a Brown I hope he turns into another Tom Brady but time will tell. I like Cody and wish him the best!!!

Just heard on 1-3 pm show an 850 a.m. (Bruce Hooley Show?) ....

Cody was the most pressurized QB in the NFL - 47% of dropbacks.

Cody was the most accurate QB under pressure - 84% (I think).

Now - I am sure someone will make the observation that Cody held on to the ball too long and created his own issues regarding the pressure he was under. . . . I think that will subject to opinion as well [1] He was a rookie QB - what do you expect? [2] There were plays he was definitely guilty of not throwing on time and when there might have been a small window that that a more experienced QB would have thrown to .... but overall I don't think Kessler is holding on to the ball WAY WAY WAY too long like some of our past QB's.

It's another area that will need to improve if he's going to be good .... but I thought the amount of pressure and the accuracy under pressure was interesting.

I think Cody displayed qualities that are sometimes hard to find in a rookie QB that have been brought up in this thread. He needs to develop those to a high level to succeed. I really pray he can improve and make the leap as I'm rooting for him. It'd be great to have our own success story for a change. If not, Kizer can sit and soak it up.

Bottom line, we don't have the answer to our QB needs in Berea yet.

If we are in position to draft what this FO and coaching staff sees as a franchise QB in next years draft, he's a Brown.

Completely agree, 100%

+1. We'll have the ammo next year to trade up if we need to do it too (two firsts and I believe 3 2nds), so we can trade up for a QB, with only picks from the 2018 draft if we want

I caught a little of DPD today when Nathan Segura was going over Cody's stats from last year. A couple jumped out (I may be off slightly on my numbers but as close as I can recall) something like 93 of his 120 completions went less than 10 yards in the air, and his completion percentage on undefended passes over 20 yards was less than 30%. I was like

I'll see if I can find the actual numbers some time tomorrow.

Here is another stat: He was 0 and 8.

my 2...

Nothing can be implied in a vacuum.

The QB would be better if the OL held their blocks a little longer, if the WR were able to get better separation, if the RB's ran a little harder or smarter.

The OL play would be better if the QB didn't hold on to the ball too long, or if he read the rush /blitz better and was able to process information post snap faster, or moved a little better in the pocket, if the RB was quicker to the hole.

WR play would be better if the QB was more efficient at throwing them open, if the OL gave the QB clearer passing lanes.

RB would be better with a deeper passing game that would prohibit stacking the box.

All of them would be better if the coaches were a little smarter and quicker to make changes in game plans of if the FO found better / kept players

bottom line we were 1-15 , we lacked most if not all those bullet points,
Stats can support the argument for or against any grouping, they were all lacking and need to get better.

Kessler wasn't 0-8 the team was 0-8 when Kessler started.

That's a fact!

In isolation - which fact or stat do you think tells more of the story?

0-8 wins/loses
or - Pressured an NFL high 47% of drop backs
or - 84% accuracy when under pressure - NFL high %

Or do we need to look at multiple factors?

I've already looked at it and feel that his game is limited. The stats are not going to change my mind.

Well he gets the opportunity and there won't be any excuses this year. If he's good enough he'll rise to the challenge and overcome obstacles. If he isn't good enough we'll see Kizer by week 6 ... or Brock.

I hope you guys are right and he proves me wrong. I'll gladly eat crow.

Dude. Read that again.

Ewwwwwww...........

I also feel that if there is a franchise QB in next years draft and we are in a position to draft him we will. Who knows, we may be able to get something for 1 or 2 of the guys we have now if they show something this year.

Just wrong !

Kessler was beating Baltimore when they pulled him for McCown who handed the Ravens the game. Unfortunately, they don't track blown saves in football.

We'd have beat Miami if our Kicker made makeable kicks.

We lost by 2 to Tennessee and we put up 26 points with him at QB.

He got hurt in the Bengals game and the Steelers game. (Think his 2 concussions, hard to keep track of all the injuries to QBs)

He only threw 8 passes against NE (had a ~126 rating) and then got hurt. (Chest & Ribs)

So, yes, he was 0 and 8, but it's not the whole story.

We were a bad team, and we almost won games with him at QB, while he was constantly getting pummeled. (some may have been on him, but a lot wasn't)

I'm willing to take some time and see how he does with more reps (wasn't supposed to play last season) behind a (hopefully) better line. Plus, he's supposedly also improved physically this offseason, and he's been working with his fellow year 2 guys.

You could very well be right about Kessler, but it seems like you are being awfully hard on him.

Did you critique the stats that made excuses for Kessler? Did you fail to notice I only posted that stat AFTER people posted stats to defend him? See, you guys don't like when I post like you do. And somehow.........you completely miss what I'm doing. LOL

I am trying to be objective. I don't believe you are interested in objectivity. Not much else for you and I to talk about.

You say you're trying to be objective, but it seems like you go too far the other way to do so at times. I try to bring it back to the middle. The positive side/view of the middle because otherwise why bother?

Confidence breeds success. You get back what you put out.

Do people go overboard with the positivity, of course. Sometimes you just seem to enjoy stomping on other people's sandcastles, though.

You posted a one line response with almost no explanation. At least some of the people using stats before tried to explain themselves.

I was trying to talk football. You go straight to the "you and I" personal stuff.

Can we go back to talking about football instead of what you believe about other posters?

What exactly is objective when people have written the kid off as a bench rider when you haven't even allowed him to show any evidence that he has improved upon last season?

IF we were being objective Kessler would be allowed to prove himself one way or the other this offseason/preseason before you write him off and throw another unprepared rookie in there and rip him apart at the end of the season. On and on the Browns break another rookie QB, next guy up.....the merry go round never ends cus 8 games or less is not the way to develop QB's.....

At some point this team needs to say "lets invest time into a guy and see where it goes" All this take a QB every season and watch the starters falter or get hurt and immediately throw the next one in there then draft another rinse and repeat is not working. Draft a guy put the time and effort into whomever it is and see what happens but this merry go round fair weather BS roulette we have been playing isn't and hasn't gone anywhere.

Just think instead of hoping against Kessler perhaps we should be hoping he gets it has a solid year and allows Kizer to grow and show the coaches something in the mean time to sway the fact we don't need to use any of our top 5 picks next year on a QB and we can focus on even more impact skill players. Wouldn't that be great??

More stats

He had no INT's, fumble recoveries, sacks, tackle's for losses, passes defended, or even pressures on Defense. We also gave up more than 28 points per game on defense when he started at QB

When I gave "stats that defended him" - I didn't say, man look at these stats, they prove he is great. In fact I went out of my way to highlight that as far as pressures go - Cody probably contributed to his own issues by holding on to the ball too long. And to finish I said I thought the perspective was interesting. I thinking it's interesting enough with all the other factors to have an open mind. Additionally I have already said that your opinion of Cody is the statistically more likely to be correct - but I think Cody has a chance and I am pulling for him. . . . It is not like I am out there with pom-poms and a rah-rah skirt blindly wishing on a star.

I'm still searching for the stats that Segura was reading from, not having much luck, but as long as we're talking stats, there this:

1,380 yards, 6 TDs & 2 INTs - Thats a pace of 2760 yards, 12 TDs & 4 INTs. While the TD to INT (and his completion %) may be impressive, those numbers will never get it done in the NFL. The Titans game, only game he had three hundred yards, and the only game he had 2 TDs. Miami game, no TDs. And I'm not sure how we were "beating Baltimore" with one TD on the board and trailing 13-7.

You are right, the stats don't tell the whole story, but they are telling in many ways. Primarily, he wasn't very effective. However, like you, and many others, I'll be looking to see how he does after the off-season strengthening, the additional time in the system, more coaching, a better O-line, etc. I hope he does well, but I don't think he'll last. I imagine he'll either get hurt or pulled in favor of one of the other "bigger" guys. And even if he manages to stay healthy, Hue will need to see Kizer at some point. And frankly, I will too. I'm just hoping the season isn't completely over when it happens.

I give all due credit to Vers on this thread as, near the beginning, he made a very fair assessment of what he sees as the pros and cons of Kessler.

Vers has a defensible position as do others that point to his potential and that precisely lays out where we are right now.

We've got a second year QB who played better than most thought he would last year but was challenged in stretching a defence. One can argue that he was impeded by poor O-Line performance and its just as easy to say Kessler didn't pull the trigger on longer routes quickly because he just doesn't have the arm for it.

Whether you're a believer or not, this year...hell...this PRESEASON will show what we actually have in Kessler as the OLine looks like good again, we've got a solid RB and competent (not great but competent) pass catchers. If Kessler doesn't make a jump this year, it will solidify his rep as backup material.

Sidenote- I wish the Browns would pick up one of the veteran wideouts kicking around...hell, bring Hawk back.

Those stats look so good..... on paper.

Some of Kessler's struggles can be blamed on the Oline. The oline has had it's issues. That being said this is Cody's year to prove or lose. The oline has a new coach and this is also their year to make a big splash as a solid dominate Oline.

But by that rationale the Eagles need to start over. Wentz had 5 games with less than 200 yards. He had another 6 games with less than 255 yards. He started all season and was preped preseason for the starting role..... No I don't think Wentz is not going to make it in the NFL. Just using the argument that you sort of judged an incomplete season by Cody on. Bottom line - stats are not proof of anything very much - especially when you look at Cody with a 93 QB rating.

I don't think anyone is saying he is a shoe in to be the man - but I think there are plenty of factors to say that the book isn't written. I think some have decided already that he is a perennial bench warmer - and I think that judgement might turn out to be right but too soon to pronounce.

I don't really believe that any of your points can be debated. But you do realize where you are at, right? You do understand what fans do here, right? Heck, it starts before players are even drafted.

People have opinions, project and forecast what players are and will become. It's one of the main things people do on a message board.

Debate and offering of alternate opinions is always good when it's done in a civil manner. I think the board seems pretty civil at the moment. Having a winning football team will only make that civility stronger/better Winning cures a lot of woes. . . . Even a 6 win season based on where we were last year should help!

It was still 7-6 us at the beginning of the 3rd quarter after he had his last snap. I had forgotten about his 3 and out to start the second half. I kind of blocked that awful game out. We did promptly give up a TD and then McCown turned it right back over.

Against Miami we did have to settle for FGs too much (3 of which were missed), but he didn't throw any picks and he did have a 2-pt conversion to Barnidge. Also, Pryor was pretty much the only threat we had with Coleman out with the broken hand.

How many games did Kessler have with both Pryor and Coleman?

It looks like just the Dallas game to me which was Coleman's first back from the injury. Kessler did have the 2 half games after that against the Ravens and Steelers, but Coleman still wasn't the same as he'd been in week 2.

So he was pretty much throwing to a slumping Barnidge and a double teamed Pryor for all of his starts. His next best receiver for most of his snaps was either Louis with his dropitis or the diminutive Hawkins.

Who wouldn't struggle in his situation? Thrown into the fire without a lot of reps, revolving door at Center, only one legit receiver, defense didn't give much help, etc.

He wasn't great, but even if he was it might have been hard to tell.

Hopefully he'll have better support all around (OL, D, and healthy targets), and more experience will allow him to operate more quickly and confidently. Did his arm strength improve? We will see.

I don't want to see Kizer this season. He needs a lot of work before he's close to ready, and Kessler needs all the reps he can get. Kizer should focus on himself and learning the playbook. Team reps can come next offseason. I understand wanting to see what he has before next draft, but I really don't think they should affect each other. If a stud QB is there, take him. At worst, Kizer becomes a trade chip. He could be our version of Jimmy G.

I agree with the analysis, and we can argue how effective he was and reasons as to why. Rather than putting effort into explaining away to whatever degree, and it may sound unfair, he was not effective enough, and our secondary and lack of pressure cut our throats, even with a rare lead. Kizer doesn't look as ready. Reps for Kessler seems prudent; Kizer later.
Let the games begin. Hope these four are good enough consistently to pressure each other. Huge question mark for me.

I wasn't ripping you for providing the stats. I was upset because of the double standard by another poster. You can use this stat, but not that stat.

Look, there are probably a dozen positive posts to every objective, or what some term "negative" post. That's fine in and of itself, but I don't like when people feel the need to shoot down every damn opinion that isn't completely homeristic.

If you go back and look at my evaluation of Kessler, there is no hate there. I'm just reporting what I see. And I don't like when guys like Grimm try to claim I am not being fair and objective.

That's all.........and I was not taking a shot at you. In fact, I thought the stats were a good addition.

Thank you, sir.