McCourty should be playing CB. He should be competing for the 2nd spot or nickel spot. I think he would do well at nickel.
I don't think he has the quicks to play in the slot. I would guess that he plays outside when he's on the field with Taylor moving to the slot when there are three corners.
Realistically I think McCourty is our fourth corner right now behind the two previously mentioned players and Boddy-Calhoun. He's only guaranteed $2 million, so I don't think we're expecting much out of him. If he can contribute any value whatsoever I will be excited.
Didn't we just sigh Meder to a 2 year extension? if so I doubt he will be a late cut...I see that as being Des. With Brantley and Ojunjobi (spelling) as new editions to the D-line...Cooper must likely gone before Des.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
I hope Meder makes it. I rarely wish for a player to "not" make it.
To me it is just going to come down to a numbers game. How many D linemen are we going to keep. It may not even come down to competition with other linemen. It may be a corner or runningback are kept over another d lineman.
I just think Meder might be on the bubble.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Nobody is going to out work Meder for the job, and he always has the idea that he is on the bubble. He just shows up for work every day with a great attitude, works his ass off, and does what ever is ask of him. I wish every Browns player had that attitude.
So we know that Kirksey and Collins are going to play most - if not all - the snaps on D. We know that teams - and especially GW - are in the nickel 60+% of the time.
So...who is the 3rd LB in the 4-3 base? Is it Peppers with Kindred @ SS? Or is it someone else?
I think the answer is both...and I get that...but which other player is worthy of being that occasional, third LB? I'm not sure that guy is on the roster right now.
I could be wrong...Statistics aside I think Collins came to us from the Pats with a pretty good reputation for his coverage skills. So the stats of a half a season after Collins got here I don't think reflects in his skills.
So If correct that in the past Collins has had a good rep in coverage I agree Kirksey is decent in coverage as well. I think we will be mess apt to change sides when we are in nickle or dime D One will cover the TE unless he lines up on the outside.
jmho. In running downs I expect 3 LBs out there and SAM with Will will rotate as long as it is not a 2 TE set.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I hope not...I think Davis is better suited for a 3-4 ILB more than a side line to side line Mike. Their discipline is different. jmho
Between Alexander and schobert I would hope one is able to come through to replace Davis though I think we'd only use 3 lbs on short downs so that somewhat suits Davis to play downhill between the tackles
So we know that Kirksey and Collins are going to play most - if not all - the snaps on D. We know that teams - and especially GW - are in the nickel 60+% of the time.
So...who is the 3rd LB in the 4-3 base? Is it Peppers with Kindred @ SS? Or is it someone else?
It seems like you're asking 2 different question here.
In the base 43 which Gregg doesn't use often ~30% the 3rd LB would be an actual LB not a Safety.
My thoughts for base would be: SAM-Collins MIKE-Davis WILL-Kirko
ID Davis is gone then you could shuffled the deck of LBs with Schobert or Alexander added in. Schobert could probably play any of the LBs spots and Alexander could play the WILL:
So we know that Kirksey and Collins are going to play most - if not all - the snaps on D. We know that teams - and especially GW - are in the nickel 60+% of the time.
So...who is the 3rd LB in the 4-3 base? Is it Peppers with Kindred @ SS? Or is it someone else?
I know I'm in the minority here, and if a reporter is going to report he's not going to be here then there may be something really missing, but, I see it a completely different way. I go off of 2015's production and say that Orchard is the better Lb than Kirksey, especially coverage wise.
then, Kirksey is the obvious 3rd Lb and special teamer, he's been a plus on special teams anyways.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Another angle though is we have Taylor, boddy, Caldwell and stribling as developmental talent at cb. Fs has.....Powell and nacua? Potential there but zero proven commodities.
It going to be interesting how the secondary shakes out for sure.
I think Boddy's quickness makes him the best bet currently on the roster to cover the slot so in my mind i always picture him at NB.
Depending on who Haden is this training camp will have a lot of bearing. IF its the Haden from last year i'm not sure he's one of the top 3 CBs on the roster.
When looking at FS (single high/single post/center field) they only guy returning with any experience is Reynolds. After him everyone else is an unknown at the NFL level. Kai Nacua and Powell have college experience at FS and they bring good measurables to the table. I haven't watched any of Kai's tape I have no idea what kind of player he is....i liked Powell's tape enough that i was surprised he went undrafted. But with that being said those guys have an uphill climb. I add Peppers into the FS mix as well. But because he didn't even play the safety spot in college he has the steepest climb to ascend to starting FS. BUT imho based on his skillset alone its worth the experiment to see if he can learn the position. Although its a longshot Peppers does have the measurables to develop into the S he said he admires...Earl Thomas.
There are so many questions in the secondary....
Its gonna be interesting to me where these guys take their reps during OTAs and training camp.
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If Mac isn't considerably better than Taylor or boddy(I don't think he is) would he be more useful for us as a fs? As an 8 year cb it'd be much easier for him to jump in at cb in an injury situation rather than jump out of position to fs.
I don't know much about Mac's game, i've only looked at his PFF grade. But i think he would at least be #2 on the CB depth chart behind Taylor and maybe #3 if the ghost of Joe Haden 2014 shows up to camp.
In the case where Taylor and Haden emerge as the top 2 CBs and Boddy as the slot defender by training camp then i would be all for Mac attempting the move to FS.
Ed, just for clarity I dug into the sub package stats on the 16rams further. The 3rd and 4th lber only played 11 and 8% respectively.
That hard part becomes that their Nickle stat at around 85% is a Nickle with Mark Barron playing LB so it's basically a heavy dime. Heavy dime at 85% is unheard of even today. Some of that is personnel but if Williams continues the trend I could see us using 3 traditional lbers(none named peppers) almost never.
Ed, just for clarity I dug into the sub package stats on the 16rams further. The 3rd and 4th lber only played 11 and 8% respectively.
As some that searches that stuff from time i appreciate whenever someone else does it.
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That hard part becomes that their Nickle stat at around 85% is a Nickle with Mark Barron playing LB so it's basically a heavy dime.
Hmmmmmmnnnnn.....I have a question then....when they play Nickel i'm assuming its: 4 DL, 2 LBs and 5 DBs?
But you're saying that when they play Nickel they have a Safety playing "LB" But does that mean Barron is playing "LB" by positional alignment OR does it mean that they're actually only playing 1 LB and 6 DBs?
That brings up a lot of questions about there personnel that i want to look up....e.g.
-did they have more talent at DB then at LB? -how did the Rams make out against the run? -i wonder net-net how the Browns ILBs and DBs compare to the Rams
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Heavy dime at 85% is unheard of even today. Some of that is personnel but if Williams continues the trend I could see us using 3 traditional lbers(none named peppers) almost never.
Yep, it appears that IF Gregg continues his trend then ILBs outside of Collins and Kirko are fighting for a couple of spots and will have to be studs on special teams and be able to back-up multiple spots.
I wonder if having 2 capable ILBs like Collins and Kirko will allow Gregg to play more 'regular' Nickel.
I like him, but I envision him as a late camp cut.
Who are you talking about? I'm confused.
I was replying to Guard.....his comments abour Meder
I'm already on record as someone who sees value in Meder. However, I did see a very small video sample of his play with commentary that suggest he was sub par in last year's run defense. A single video doesn't adequately reflect his play but it does raise questions about his fit in this scheme that will need to be answered. So I'll give closer attention to his play going forward.
Here's the video.
In this video, what I'm seeing is Meder getting nudged off his block just a tad, and then the linebacker that's right there to make the tackle at the line getting lit up by the fullback. I'm talking about the first 2 plays where he's critiquing Meder. The video commentator is saying how Meder is getting blown away at the line, but I don't see it.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
My guess is that Barron was considered a linebacker in the Rams' scheme. Which means they went with four linemen, two linebackers, and five defensive backs.
Lamarcus Joyner was the real hybrid guy for the Rams. For 2015, on Pro Football Reference, he's listed as a corner, defensive back, linebacker, and left corner.
My guess is that Barron was considered a linebacker in the Rams' scheme. Which means they went with four linemen, two linebackers, and five defensive backs.......Kirksey and Collins will probably be in the Ogletree Barron roles. Peppers in the Joyner role.
I think you and pred are right that Barron played in an actual LB position in Gregg/Rams defense "nickel" defense last year....which means their nickel was actually a "big" dime going by personnel.
I think with the personnel here it makes sense to play more "true" nickel because of Kirksey's versatility. I don't think you gain anything by removing Kirko and putting in any one of the safeties other then Peppers. But to me that wouldn't add talent it creates a hole by taking Kirko off and fills it by taking Peppers away from playing somewhere's else.
TLDR-I don't think Gregg will use a S at LB in nickel here.
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Lamarcus Joyner was the real hybrid guy for the Rams. For 2015, on Pro Football Reference, he's listed as a corner, defensive back, linebacker, and left corner.
I remember Joyner being used in multiple spots like a Tyrann Mathiu. Somewhere between a slot+FS. I'm not sure if there is a player like that on this roster because imo the key trait is coverage ability....maybe Peppers fits there like you say...i think Peppers could develop at SS and maybe even FS but covering the slot may be a bridge too far....my pick/guess for a slot/cb/safety would Boddy or McCourty.
I heard yesterday on CBD that the starting S were Ed Reynolds at Free and Kindred at Strong....i'm eager to see where Peppers will fit in.
[/quote]Hmmmmmmnnnnn.....I have a question then....when they play Nickel i'm assuming its: 4 DL, 2 LBs and 5 DBs?
But you're saying that when they play Nickel they have a Safety playing "LB" But does that mean Barron is playing "LB" by positional alignment OR does it mean that they're actually only playing 1 LB and 6 DBs?
That brings up a lot of questions about there personnel that i want to look up....e.g.
-did they have more talent at DB then at LB? -how did the Rams make out against the run? -i wonder net-net how the Browns ILBs and DBs compare to the Rams
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Heavy dime at 85% is unheard of even today. Some of that is personnel but if Williams continues the trend I could see us using 3 traditional lbers(none named peppers) almost never.
Yep, it appears that IF Gregg continues his trend then ILBs outside of Collins and Kirko are fighting for a couple of spots and will have to be studs on special teams and be able to back-up multiple spots.
I wonder if having 2 capable ILBs like Collins and Kirko will allow Gregg to play more 'regular' Nickel.
[/quote]
Yes their Nickle was a 4-2-5 with Barron being one of the two lbers. That's what I mean when I say dime heavy. I think on most other teams Barron would be a thumper ss still albeit an average one. Tj MacDonald is pretty average himself but with Barron being more stout and their lb depth being so poor I think he decided to use Barron at lb for those reasons and it relatively succeeded. I think this was easily Barron most productive year.
As far as straight lineup I would say...
DE: unless garrett implodes we are better and potentially much better. Quinn has been very inconsistent and Hayes was at ogbahs level but Emmanuel has upside tbd.
Dt: Danny's above average and all but the rams murder us here. Donald and brockers with depth is tremendous
LB: they have ogletree who id say is similar to kirksey playstyle but slightly better. We have collins who they have no comparison so lber wise we have a pretty big up on and at least similar if not better depth.
WS: while stats consider Barron a lber he's actually technically a will safety which is what I project peppers as(though he'll likely play more true strong safety thanks to us having collins). While barron came into his own this year under williams i think pepper is the better prosoect all around. Itll be interesting to see how peppers does in comparison and where barron goes wothout an exotic coordinator.
Ss: MacDonald is average at best but it would take kindred more polish to even be his level. Probably similar players down the road imo
Fs: both horrible
Cb: if not for trumaine johnson I'd say talent wise we are equal and we probably outproduced our own talent level last year.
Overall I'd say we are maybe washed now with us having superior potential.
Without looking it up I remember that they were poor in total run defense(tends to happen With a horrid offense) but per play was slightly above average in run stoppage. Nothing crazy but not as poor as many people suggest. I'm also of the opinion the greatest run defense you can have is to score on offense so I don't care for total defense as a stat.
...Yes their Nickle was a 4-2-5 with Barron being one of the two lbers. That's what I mean when I say dime heavy. I think on most other teams Barron would be a thumper ss still albeit an average one. Tj MacDonald is pretty average himself but with Barron being more stout and their lb depth being so poor I think he decided to use Barron at lb for those reasons and it relatively succeeded. I think this was easily Barron most productive year......{moved out of sequence: Without looking it up I remember that they were poor in total run defense(tends to happen With a horrid offense) but per play was slightly above average in run stoppage. Nothing crazy but not as poor as many people suggest. I'm also of the opinion the greatest run defense you can have is to score on offense so I don't care for total defense as a stat.
I hear yah, i'm not a big fan of total yards stats...figuring out what they're really showing you requires too much work and the number alone doesn't tell me too much.
In regards to the Rams run def i went to my source for quick and dirty but meaningful team stats..Football Outsiders...http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
Rams Defense: Overall: 16th Pass Rank: 20th Run Rank: 6th
Yeah it's my phone lol it's so difficult to post from it but my computer should be back soon.
That's really interesting numbers. So for LA it shows they have the top run stuffing DL but surrender yards in the open field. Where as we have the worst DL but were average once the runner pierced our line.
I'm surprised how poor they were in open field. Their safeties are poor but with ogletree and decent corners I thought they'd be average.
That leads me to believe that having Barron playing as a true lb hurt their open field run game. That combined with a lack of talent at safety and poor scoring offense but it definitely seems like his presence hurt their run support at the 2nd level.
Even more interesting is that chart that differentiates between run lanes. We were average when ran at danny and poor when ran at outside. But my god we were terrible at setting edge. That shows our weakness as mostly 5T and partially ILB and OLB. The new alignment helps and the combo of Garrett and ogbah not playing 5T at 260lbs should really improve that. With peppers in the fold I think he could help turn our outside run stop into a strength too.
..That's really interesting numbers. So for LA it shows they have the top run stuffing DL but surrender yards in the open field. Where as we have the worst DL but were average once the runner pierced our line.
+1
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I'm surprised how poor they were in open field. Their safeties are poor but with ogletree and decent corners I thought they'd be average.....That leads me to believe that having Barron playing as a true lb hurt their open field run game. That combined with a lack of talent at safety and poor scoring offense but it definitely seems like his presence hurt their run support at the 2nd level.
I guess it depends on how you chop up the credit/blame....
I would attribute 2nd level yards more to the backers (Ogle/Barron) and Open field more the safeties/corners TJ Mac and their CB.
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Even more interesting is that chart that differentiates between run lanes. We were average when ran at danny and poor when ran at outside. But my god we were terrible at setting edge... That shows our weakness as mostly 5T and partially ILB and OLB. The new alignment helps and the combo of Garrett and ogbah not playing 5T at 260lbs should really improve that.
Amen brother. I hated, hated, hated every single snap where Ogbah (or Nassib) lined up as 5tech...didn't make a lick of sense to me (of course back then it seemed like no one agreed with me). And once an OL gets the 5 tech moving good luck to anyone else in the front 7 getting a stop. If they get movement on the 5 tech on the LOS they are taking him for a ride and getting to the next level backer either blocking him outright or just getting in his way and creating trash for them to work around/through/over.
DE: unless garrett implodes we are better and potentially much better. Quinn has been very inconsistent and Hayes was at ogbahs level but Emmanuel has upside tbd.
Agreed. Ogbah as a rookie has already putting up numbers on par with Hayes. And Garrett....well Garrett could be every bit as good as Quinn or better.
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Dt: Danny's above average and all but the rams murder us here. Donald and brockers with depth is tremendous
Yup, they got Easley too. Right now its Shelton + a bunch on unknown quantities. Will Bryant return healthy and be the player from a couple/few years ago? Will Cooper a journey 3 tech DT benefit from not having to play out of position at 5 tech?
Then you got the 2 rookie DTs that I really like they will go a long to determining the quality of the DL which in turn will go a long way to determine the quality of run defense and the defense as a whole.
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LB: they have ogletree who id say is similar to kirksey playstyle but slightly better. We have collins who they have no comparison so lber wise we have a pretty big up on and at least similar if not better depth.
Agreed and they might be good enough to play more 'true' nickel as opposed to big dime.
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WS: while stats consider Barron a lber he's actually technically a will safety which is what I project peppers as(though he'll likely play more true strong safety thanks to us having collins). While barron came into his own this year under williams i think pepper is the better prosoect all around. Itll be interesting to see how peppers does in comparison and where barron goes wothout an exotic coordinator.
If there is a big nickel package I think Peppers could be better then Barron also.
question: its nickel situation. you have 2 safety spots to fill and 1 hybrid spot where you play either a LB or S. you have these 4 players to choose from: Collins, Kirko, Peppers, Reynolds, and 1 of (Kindred/Powell/Campbell).
Where do you play them?
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Ss: MacDonald is average at best but it would take kindred more polish to even be his level. Probably similar players down the road imo
If Peppers is allowed to learn 1 position I think he could be good quickly. If Peppers was to focus only on SS then I think he could quickly surpass Mac.
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Fs: both horrible
Alexander stepped up for them last year and they play/played Joyner there some snaps. I think there FS is both better and more settled. Again...because of Pepper's skillset I wonder if he could learn to play FS if that was his sole focus. I can think of anything better for the secondary then Peppers stepping up and owning that FS spot....but its not likely....Powell is another guy that I can see making the transition and holding down the FS spot...but that could be residual belief in him based on my film study and his measurables.
For me Rams wins FS by far.
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Cb: if not for trumaine johnson I'd say talent wise we are equal and we probably outproduced our own talent level last year.
Tru and Taylor match-up closely via PFF. And with the addition of McCourty + Boddy they're only a nose hair behind Joyner and Nickell Robey....and IF Haden returns to form then it would tip the scale to Gregg's boyz.
If Gregg's ends up using a lot of 1 LB defense I would like to see Collins get some chances to rush off the edge ala Giants of ole nascar package:
Collins--Ogbah--Cooper/Brantley--Garrett
random thought....I would love to see Collins play a Khalil Mack type role...or at least that's what I would do with him....43 under he would be the rush SAM backer.
Opportunity Arises for Browns CB Channing Stribling
Despite 24 draft picks over the last two years, the Cleveland Browns still have massive holes along their secondary.
In April, the team added Michigan's Jabrill Peppers in the first round to play strong safety and selected Houston's Howard Wilson in the fourth round to provide cornerback depth. But Wilson suffered a fractured kneecap during the second day of rookie minicamp, per ESPN's Adam Schefter. According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, the Houston product is expected to return within 12-16 weeks.
With Wilson out of the picture, another rookie can rise to the occasion.
Joe Haden, Jamar Taylor, Briean Boddy-Calhoun and recent free-agent acquisition Jason McCourty comprise the team's cornerback crew. The Browns have yet to commit to McCourty as a corner or a safety, though, per Andrew Gribble of the team's official site.
Quality depth is still required. Undrafted free-agent Channing Stribling has the tools and mentality to succeed in the role.
"I like Cleveland, I like that underdog and bringing teams back and being a part of that and building up a program,” Stribling said, per Patrick Maks of the Browns site.
At 6'1", the Michigan product brings a different dynamic to the team's defensive backs. None of the veteran corners on the roster are taller than 6'0". Stribling excels as a press corner, and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams employed Cover 1 over 25 percent of the time last season, per Pro Football Focus' Eliot Crist. In fact, the lanky defensive back allowed the lowest completion percentage among college cornerbacks last season, per PFF.
With Wilson's timetable running through training camp and uncertainty in the secondary surrounding the team's veterans, Stribling's skill set makes him a legitimate option for a roster spot and a potential contributor.
PFF started to post about him when they were introducing 5+ rounders. I thought he'd be drafted. Doesn't have the speed to cover a few guys, probably. He plays press pretty well (although he had 5 at the bench press) and it covers up those speed deficiencies, especially if he can hold downfield. I still really like him though and thinks he makes the team.
..That's really interesting numbers. So for LA it shows they have the top run stuffing DL but surrender yards in the open field. Where as we have the worst DL but were average once the runner pierced our line.
+1
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I'm surprised how poor they were in open field. Their safeties are poor but with ogletree and decent corners I thought they'd be average.....That leads me to believe that having Barron playing as a true lb hurt their open field run game. That combined with a lack of talent at safety and poor scoring offense but it definitely seems like his presence hurt their run support at the 2nd level.
I guess it depends on how you chop up the credit/blame....
I would attribute 2nd level yards more to the backers (Ogle/Barron) and Open field more the safeties/corners TJ Mac and their CB.
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Even more interesting is that chart that differentiates between run lanes. We were average when ran at danny and poor when ran at outside. But my god we were terrible at setting edge... That shows our weakness as mostly 5T and partially ILB and OLB. The new alignment helps and the combo of Garrett and ogbah not playing 5T at 260lbs should really improve that.
Amen brother. I hated, hated, hated every single snap where Ogbah (or Nassib) lined up as 5tech...didn't make a lick of sense to me (of course back then it seemed like no one agreed with me). And once an OL gets the 5 tech moving good luck to anyone else in the front 7 getting a stop. If they get movement on the 5 tech on the LOS they are taking him for a ride and getting to the next level backer either blocking him outright or just getting in his way and creating trash for them to work around/through/over.
Wait was there a stat for 2nd level run stopping? Maybe i missed that? I thought it was just DL and open field. That's why I grouped them in. I think ogbah had a great build for a 5T(with time to add weight) but he needed a year or two.
If Gregg's ends up using a lot of 1 LB defense I would like to see Collins get some chances to rush off the edge ala Giants of ole nascar package:
Collins--Ogbah--Cooper/Brantley--Garrett
random thought....I would love to see Collins play a Khalil Mack type role...or at least that's what I would do with him....43 under he would be the rush SAM backer.
I could see that. I think collins and Kirk will play as close to 100% snap count as anyone but Kirk will be our anchor. I see peppers in a similar light as collins. Obviously very different bodies but skill set I think is close. I could see collins rush while peppers fakes a blitz from the slot and vice versa. I'd even like to see some 5 man fronts with just Kirk standing with stunts.
My perfect lineup would be collins and Kirk with 4 DL, 2 CBS, a single high fs(player not on the roster) and a balanced safety/Nickle player(like mccourtey or taylor?) And use peppers as a chess piece. I'd line him up all over. Slot blitz followed by fake blitz into zone with collins screaming behind Garrett. There's just so much you can do with his closing speed imo. I want to use him like Troy P.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
I wonder did FO break down these stats on quarters. Interesting whether big plays came equally throughout or more later in games. I'll bet Rams defense was top five in time on the field.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
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