DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum DL...who makes the team?

I ask myself the same thing. I tend to think not, at least long term. I think he is a one trick Pony. Pretty much just a bull rusher. At least at this point.

High motor guys impress when you aren't very good, and coaches like that, but in the end they have to do somethig, and thus far, be it early, Nassib hasn't done much.

I hope you're right. I hope he makes it....I just don't think so, at least long term. I don't know that we will cut him after just one season. That just means we will have to cut somebody else.

You make a good point about already being cut if we thought he doesn't have it any longer. I am not calling for the guy to be cut. At this point I am not calling for anybody to be cut. I said that early on. I just don't think he is a lock to make the team compard to a guy like Garrett as an example. So are Ogbah Shelton and Ogunjobi.

I only say Ogun because as a 3rd round pick, you don't see many, if any 3rd rounders not make the team their first year. It is simply a odds pick. I can't say I have ever seen the kid play other than some of the reels posted around here.

To your first point...True with anyone.

To your second point..."anyone" you are talking about the two rookies who will make the team baring injury anyways. Of the players who where here already, I think that they already know what their potential is as far as their ceiling.

LOL...........perfect timing after KWhip's post.

One more thing. Seems like most people are saying that our dline is going to be good and it's a nice problem to have to make so many tough decisions.

I am optimistic, but we really don't know if the guys we drafted are any good or not. They haven't even played an NFL snap.

Our D was atrocious last year. I've read threads like this for almost two decades. I'll wait to see how they play before I claim they are good. Again, I am not bad-mouthing them and I do have some hope, but it's too early to proclaim our dline as good.

LOL

Yeah, that was the point that I was trying to make to 16.

I also think that the two rookie DT will be getting alot of chances to prove themselves and that leaves less reps for the guys we already had here, to further surpass the Coach's expectation of them.

True. I just don't really have a reason to rule them out is all. As I've said before I don't like making assumptions I stick to likelihood and possibilities.

I don't know if well be above average(good). It seems pretty much certain well be improved. What I look at is we've invested so unless a top 10 type 3T shows up this DL is basically a finished 2 year minimum project. Ogbah, Garrett, nassib, ogungobi and Danny are pretty much locked in through 2018.

C Brantley
D Bryant
M Garrett
J Meder
C Nassib
E Ogbah
L Ogunjobi
D Shelton

I like Nassib, Orchard, and Cooper, I do, I really think the sky's the limit with them.

I think Dt'ers would have cut Ray Lewis his 1st two years in the league.

in light of Nate Ochard being moved to DE, I have revised my 8 D-line men to--

C Brantley
D Bryant
M Garrett
J Meder
C Nassib/ N Orchard (leaning strongly towards Orchard at this point)
E Ogbah
L Ogunjobi
D Shelton

I think that we will keep 9 or 10 DL.

My projected breakdown is 10 DL, 6 LB, 10 DB, 1 P, 1 K, 1 LS, 9 OL, 3 QB, 3 RB, 3 TE, 6 WR.

Williams loves rotating his DL, so I see this as a unit that will have a ton of depth. I could also see us going with 11 DB and 5 LB, given Williams proclivity for playing a lot of nickel. If I'm a LB not named Collins or Kirksey, I might be worried about my roster spot.

The Rams, week 1 last year, really loaded up on the offensive side of things. The defense appears to have opened with 8 DL, 5 LB, and 9 DB. I don't think that Hue will do that to Williams hjere in Cleveland.

sounds good to me lol. I really like the way this defense is shaping up. I'm excited to see what they look like this year.

I can't wait to see Garrett and Ogbah on the Browns DL. Who gets doubled?

lol Who does get doubled? Shelton? Garrett? Ogbah? can't double them all...

damn why can't preseason start tomorrow? lol

I se a ton of potential on defense. I am also excited to see the season start.

It's not perfect, but I think that we'll have an improved pass rush, and that should improve the secondary.

I'm looking at the D-line and LB's and am having a hard time finding any holes in those two units.

Our defense was really bad last year. Many of the same players are returning. I think we'll be improved, but it might be wise to curb the enthusiasm a bit.

Bad things tend to occur when reality sets in.

We could definitely have a more settled 3T but we have a nice mix of experience, production and upside

1) C Brantley DT 3-tech

2) D Bryant DT 3-tech [b]IF[/b] 100% Healthy...provides a proven player at 3-tech...but there is a lot of injury and age risk there and a lot of youth is behind him that needs to play

3) X Cooper DT 3-tech more proven then the rookies, getting fresh start at his natural position

4) M Garrett DE

5) C Johnson DE Returns to his natural position was productive edge rusher in limited snaps backs up Garrett/Ogbah

6) J Meder DT -I think longshot to make them team with all the youth, if he's not clearly better then the rookies....?

7) C Nassib DT/DE Where does he fit? Wasn't twitchy enough to turn the corner as an edge rusher last year nor was he stout enough against the run. Can he improve? I would like to see him this year...

8) E Ogbah DE

9) L Ogunjobi DT/NT

10) D Shelton DT/NT

Then I would like to keep another edge rusher. Personally I like Holmes more then Orchard due to health and productivity....but then again I could see Collins being used as an edge rusher in Dime personnel and special packages.


Sure seems like there are gonna be some 1 on 1 opportunities that the DL is gonna need to win to be the defense we want.

My guess...to start off the season Shelton will get doubled because he was doubled at time last year. So he'll get the attention of Center+1 Guard, I wouldn't be surprised if Garrett comes out the gate being doubled....but being that he's a rookie lets say they try him 1 on 1 vs LT, Ogbah got doubled at times last year BUT if a 3-tech emerges that penetrate they'll likely get attention from OG+RT but at a minimum:

Shelton vs Center+OG
Garrett vs LT + RB
3-tech vs OG + RT
Ogbah vs TE

Because coaches tend to get fired once reality sets in.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with a fan's level of enthusiasm.

ed:

Ogbah vs TE. Love it!

[quote=WSU Willie]

They were not coaches, but my enthusiasm soared when Lombanner were shown the door...

If they 2B Garrett because of his reputation look out for Ogbah, I think he will have 2B digit sacks and would not be surprised If both were in 2B digits ... JMHO

lol Vers, I understand the defense struggled last year. And there are more than a couple reasons for that imo.

1) personal
2) scheme (dont like Horton's)
3) play calling. our guys were out of position more than once.
4) rookies didn't know the whole playbook. (over complicated I heard. and they put themselves out of position)
5) offense (didn't do the defense any favors.)
6) injuries (Haden as I understand it, had to get two shots before the games for his groin injury)

curb my enthusiam? sorry can't do that. lol

and here is why?

if our front four looks like this
Garrett
Brantley (I'm high on. cuz he was projected to go in round 2, and we got him in round six. steal. and I read somewhere he was the #2 DT in this years draft...well...lol)
Shelton
Ogbah

no holes I can see. even if it's like this..

Garrett
Ojunbodi
Shelton
Ogbah

still damn good to me or

Garrett
Des
Shelton
Ogbah

lol or this...

Garrett
Meder
Shelton
Ogbah

not to mention Cooper and Orchard are still in the mix...what hole is there?

LB"s imo

Collins
Kirksey

no depth but damn good players both for our starters...again no depth, but the starters have no hole there to me.

our front 7/6 is damn solid to me.

that is what makes my nips get hard.

CB's

Haden
Taylor
Boddy

all solid imo

FS Reynolds (to me he really came on strong at the end of the season)

SS Peppers (Kindred is a head hunters...I like that but he struggles covering)


lol buddy Vers I see a lot to be excited about. It's ok if we see things differently.

Oh and by the way "reality" is relative.

there is no reality just yet, as we have not played even a pre season game. So our defense could suck, or they could go lights out. top 10 style...we don't know yet

cheers from the dawgpound

I like Brantley as well. We will see it the motor issues get worked out under Williams. I think they will. He is also going to have a chip on his shoulder after some bimbo caused him to lose 4 rounds of draft position.

I think the bull is going to play like his hair's on fire.

I think I am pretty good at recognizing schemes. It was mandatory that I understood such things when I was paid to scout. I didn't see any glaring problems w/the Brown's defense in terms of scheme or alignment. I will say that there was an issue after Poyer got hurt and we tried to play Kindred and IC together. One of those guys was always getting torched because neither can cover at all and they certainly were not free safeties. That situation improved quite a bit once Reynolds was inserted at FS.

I think the main problem is that the personnel sucked and that the unit really lacked experience. Too many young guys had to play a large role.

Williams is a pretty good DC, but he's been fired before just as Horton has. His Rams' D last year wasn't all that great and they had way more talent and experience than the Browns did. In fact, they allowed:

28 points to SF w/Blaine Gabbert at qb

32 points to Tampa Bay

30 points to freaking Buffalo

31 points to Detroit

49 points to New Orleans

42 points to Atlanta

44 points to Arizona

I am not saying he is a bad coach. What I am saying is the same thing I said at this timelast year when people were claiming that our D would be so much better w/Horton than it was w/O'Neil.

Too much hope is put on coaching changes and then too much blame is assigned to coaches when there is a personnel problem.

And I don't care ifsome posters may scoff at my proclamation that coaches end up getting fired when reality sets in, because Haslam's history shows that he does indeed listen to what the media and public has to say and he has a history of firing people.

My bottom line is that I think we have added some talent. I think the future looks decent on that side of the ball. But, our secondary is still trash and we are still lacking experience. It's going to take some time for this unit to become very good and I don't think the coaching staff should take the blame when they aren't as good as some people [such as yourself] think they are going to be.

I like how you said it's okay if we see things differently. I agree w/that. I hope it doesn't come across as me attacking you. That certainly isn't my intent. I am simply voicing my opinion on how good the D will be this year and I am mainly doing that because I don't want to see more coaches get fired again. I want us to stick w/these guys for awhile.

IDK Vers, a scheme needs to be matched to the talent ( or as you noted lack of talent) that is on the field and therein lies the schematic errors from last year.

to avoid writing a Diamdawg Short story ( J/K Brother),I will give the cliff notes:

I have said for years the biggest problem we have had on defense was our ILB, that position continues to be neglected and is one reason my enthusiasm for Williams is tempered, but I digress,

To compensate for our ILB inabilities to stand tall in the interior holes we constantly crashed our DL and many times our OLB down exposing our edges.

Since our ILB also lacked the closing speed to cover the edges we got gouged there.

Again to compensate we walked safeties up to the edges , exposing the center of the field to deep seam routes.

To compensate for that they tried what appeared to be a match zone in the secondary that either was not implemented correctly, mis-understood or we did not have the horses to run, I assume it is the latter but it is hard to watch secondary play on TV.

Regardless this type of zone requires quick recovery time from safeties and the ability to turn, ( our safeties hips are to stiff), hence seam routes. BUT because of that they played deeper than you would normally want on walk up safeties in the box and because our ILB were so porous and they played closer to the line that you would want, all this exposed us to middle depth crossing routes once the safeties were cleared by deeper routes coming through the zone.

So we were exposed on the edge; deep in the center; and on crossing routes n( also skinny flag patterns). YES lack of talent played a roll but a scheme that did not put them in their best position based on their talent played an even bigger one.

JustIMO

j/c

Im excited about the new DL but also realistic that it likely won't result in a huge jump in defensive rankings.

Adding talent to a bottom rung DL only gets you so far up the ladder.--
----------------
texaslostdawg 

I agree w/ a lot of what you said. but I think our ILB were and are a strength on this team.
I think the D was weak on the edge due to a mix of personnel and scheme. Didn't have enough good edge defenders and they were poorly deployed.

Vers-
same, agree with most but I def agree Horton made some schematic decisions and use of personnel that I found puzzling eg using Ogbah at 5tech in base defense....playing some much zone when the guys weren't ready for...not blitzing enough....towards the end of the season when the defense was more aggressive (proly at the behest of Hue) the defense looked better

Honest question to anyone who wants to respond:

Why are some folks up (and some down) on a 5-2 as the base - rather than a 4-3 with an ILB?

Don't know why but I have the feeling that Cooper is the "Erving" on this DL. Dude has really shown nothing, and with all the new depth I doubt he gets much of a chance.

I don't know what you mean by 4-3 with an ILB. I'm assuming you mean 4-2 with a S instead of MLB?

But, I can tell you why I'm against 5-2 as base defense.
Gregg and the league as whole are moving towards playing more nickel as "base" defense in response to offenses being in 3 wide formations more often.

Playing a 5-2 as a base defense doesn't fit the aim of being better against the pass. 5-2 is more of a run stopping front then pass.

My bad...I could have asked that much better than I did and should not have generically used the word "base"...here's what I meant to ask:

When we are in an alignment other than the nickle and would be expected to play a run-stopping front (aka 4-3 with an ILB)...say on first down with the offense not running (3) WRs...

Why would a 5-2 - given our personnel - be worse (or better) than running a 4-3 on said run-stopping intentions?

I was just watching NFL redzone replay....(yes I'm a football junkie/nerd)...just saw Steelers vs Browns 3rd and 7.

Kirko broke up a rushed pass form Rothlisberger.

Shelton got the pressure to rush throw.

The line-up was Nassib-Meder-Shelton-Ogbah.

Ogbah was being blocked 1-on-1 by the LT and slanted inside.
Shelton faced the LG 1-on-1 disengaged from him and looped around Ogbah.
Meder (of all people) got doubled C + RG.
Nassib got stood up 1-on-1 vs the RT.

when I think about inserting the new additions into that line-up....

Garrett vs LT

Bryant or insert you favorite to win the 3-tech here vs LG

Shelton vs C + RG

Ogbah vs RT

Okay I think I got you now...(also when you write 4-3 you don't have to say/write 'with an ILB' b/c a 4-3 already explains that)...

Its a more complicated question then it seems because there are several ways to end up in a 5-2 front. It could be 43 over or under with the SAM playing on front.
Could be 34 with both OLB playing on the LOS..or it could be a true 5-2 with 5 DL down on the LOS.

If you mean a 'true' 5-2 with 5 down DL I wouldn't like that as base defense because its too limited in what the defense can handle its almost purely a run stopping front. I would reserve 5-2 with 5 DL for special situations only.

Now, if you're talking about flexing into a 5-2 look from a base 43 with Collins on the LOS I could definitely see some packages or playcalls like that.

I guess I disagree. I don't see how adding Garrett, Brantley, and Ogunjobe isn't going make significant improvents when added to a few of the others.

Sure, they have to make it happen, but pre-draft both Garrett and Brantley were big time targets for me. I'll have to be honest, I hadn't heard of Ogun until we drafted him.