DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavs: Time To Reflect and Look Ahead

The other thread is locked. I think it is time to reflect on what the Cavs have accomplished and also discuss what the team should/can do moving forward. I'll collect my thoughts and post them shortly.

I think what the Cavs has accomplished is great. That one championship is worth a ton. However, it is just very "Cleveland" to build a team that could win multiple championships at the same time the best team (maybe in history) is being built in the other conference. On the bright side, when it was the Bulls, they kept us out of the finals, at least with GSW being in the west, we can still get to the finals.

As far as what we should/can do going forward... I don't think we are going to be in a position to add a "star" like Paul George, we just need to be more physical. Whether that means adding an enforcer under the basket or just convincing TT, Love, and James that they need to be more physical, I don't know. GSW is a 100% finesse team and if you get bodies on them and make them work, that is when you can have success against them. I don't advocate hurting people but if we are going to foul them, then we have to FOUL them. Watching KD and Curry get these minor touch foul calls (that LeBron never gets because of his size) while they continue on to get the easy +1 shot off is ridiculous. If you are going to foul them, then make them pay for it just a little, make them think twice about wanting to do it again.

And the defense has to improve, not the tactical part of the defense, the "want to" part of defense. Giving up easy buckets because folks are standing around or just jogging back has to stop. You work for 20 seconds to get a decent shot off and score a bucket and they score a layup or dunk in 4 seconds because you are jogging back is just flat out unacceptable. Defending GSW's break is difficult because if you leave your man to stop the ball you are leaving a good 3-point shooter alone, I get that part. So the best way to stop that is for all 5 guys to get back in a hurry and set up the defense to stop it early. If just 1 or 2 guys don't get back in a hurry, you end up with GSW having the advantage that they will exploit 90% of the time.

Ahhh....the old adage 'Defense wins championships'.

The Cavs had a great 3 yr run and its been enjoyable to watch with exception of this teams defense....ALL YEAR!
They were ranked 10th IIRC last season and win in historic fashion. This year they were ranked in the 20's and damn near got swept.

There's been something to cheer about the past few years and for the next few if LeBron wants to keep playing. It has to be frustrating for him knowing the Warriors will stand in his way for the rest of his career.

If they trot out this same lineup next season the result will be the same, lose in the Finals. The way I see it, Paul George is a must. We need his defense along with his scoring. That makes Love expendable. I hated giving Wiggins up for Love and I still do.

Players will have to take less money to be a part of the Finals for the next few years.

I'll echo what I said last night ... The Warriors "celebration" was probably the tamest I ever seen. You would of thought they won a vacation to San Francisco and not an NBA Championship. Just some handshakes and hugs and that was about it. Compare to last year were people were running around the court, piling on each other, crying, yelling, showing true emotion and acting like they had really accomplished something special. Even the fan reaction videos from last year are something special to watch (Granted a 52-year drought probably helps that matter), but I get the feeling any fan-reaction videos to this year's Championship will be a few fans clapping at the bar, then sprinting out to their Teslas in the parking lot to beat traffic. So enjoy your hollow victory Golden State, you've earned it. And judging by your reacting to winning it, you know how hollow it was too.

I don't know what moves we can or should make, but we need to defend better. Although, it's an odd expectation to defend KD, Curry, Thompson and Green over 7 games.

We take another run at it next year. If we win, great. If we lose in 5, oh well. There is the possibility that Lebron might leave, which I'd be totally fine with. He delivered a championship, so it's okay if he bolts for another run at a title.

After last season, I'd root for him regardless, even if he joined the Celtics.

A hollow victory is better than a loss (and I think you are wrong about how they feel about it).

I'll defer to the other guys on the board since I'm no basketball guru, but Wiggins doesn't impress me. He can score in volume, but is that it? He can't rebound, pass and I thought someone told me his defense is horrible.

Would he really improve this team over Kevin?

As for the Cavs, there is no easy answer. Anyone who doesn't understand the NBA or the salary cap will say, "Just go get more stars", but it's going to be really difficult to do much of anything.

Shump, TT, JR are all tied up to pretty hefty deals. It's doubtful we can swap them for anything substantial. We aren't getting Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Jimmy Butler or anyone of that caliber by trading a team a combination of those three. They'll want draft assets or a young up-and-comer. We don't have that.

The other obvious option is to trade Kevin Love or Kyrie for an equally equivalent star. But what's the best we're going to get for that? I keep hearing Kevin Love for Paul George, but would that Pacers even want to do that? If they are giving up PG, they'd likely want to go into rebuild-mode. Not build a team around Kevin Love. They probably would take trade packages from Boston or LA before anything Cleveland could offer them. At any rate, say they made that deal anyway. Who's rebounding for us now? We would have to play Lebron at Power Forward (which he hates) and we still have the same issue of matching up our 3-stars with Golden State's four.

The only valuable trade assets the Cavs have are LeBron, Kyrie, and Love. I would only trade one of those guys (Love), but I don't know what you can get back for him. Say the Pacers do want to trade Paul George, they would be able to get better packages from other teams (Celtics).

The Cavs also can't sign anyone because of the giant contracts they have on the books. I believe they don't have the mid-level exception available to them because of their time spent in the luxury tax. That means they can only sign free agents to the veteran minimum. Players are willing to take a pay cut to win, but not that big of a pay cut (if they are still good players). The best they can do is sign more guys like Jefferson, Williams, Jones, etc.

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Would he really improve this team over Kevin? [/quote]

Wiggins defense is terrible but he was advertised coming out as a Paul George type defender. I really believe it's the team he's on now that's not allowing his defense to develop as advertised.

Timberwolves are young with no real vets to school this kid. Imagine him playing with LeBron. Another guy who can create his own shots, play ISO like this Cavs team so annoyingly loves to do. This alone would free LeBron up to expend more energy on the defensive side because he would have a much better scorer to depend on than Kevin Love.

Love doesn't fit IMO. Wiggins game does and he'd learn so much playing with LeBron. Plus his rookie salary wouldn't handcuff this team signing a Paul George. But hey...what could have been.

Love is too inconsistent other than rebounding. Dump him and sign Paul George.

I agree completely with the tone of your post....there is little we can do. I think first things first, the Cavs will want to address the bench/role players. Some guys will be rolling off the roster and will need to find vets who want to go for that championship and will take vet minimum-like deals.

The bench needs to play better and I assume that's what will be the priority considering the lack of moves we can make.

The Shump and TT contracts make me nauseous. Both are decent-to-good players but NOWHERE near the amount of money they are getting, IMO. BUt admittedly, I'm not aware of what the same position/ player production equivalent is getting paid. But I doubt any team would be interested in the those contracts this upcoming season. The same thing could be said for JR but I think there were some emotional things going on this season for him. Still, those three contract plus the purging of draft assets puts the Cavs in a tough spot to make moves.

That being said, I think we're still the favorite to make to the Finals in the East again. So maybe it's just a couple bench pieces and a few better performances from our guys and we're singing a different tune.

This Cavs team was better than last year's. It's one of the best teams in recent history IMO ... the Warriors are just THAT good. Durant puts them at an all-time great level ... maybe the best team ever.

How do we acquire talent needed to compete/beat them? Maybe Paul George is the only possibility. He can defend and has the skillset that would fit with us (wing scorer) and play against them.

Yeah, I agree with JR. I'll give him a pass for this year. He was injured a few times and then he had the whole ordeal with his daughter as well which must of made things really tough. I doubt he was very focused on basketball through much of it. I thought he did really well the last few games of the series as well, he just wasn't getting the touches. I was begging for the team to pass it to him in the 4th quarter.

The one that bugs me is Shump. He looked like he could be an up-and-comer. Played with tons of energy and defended well. Now he's a guy that drives you nuts on offense and can't defend like he used to. I almost wish we passed on Shump and signed Delly to that deal. (They both ended up getting about the same). At least with Delly, you know he'll bring the energy and it hopefully rubs off on the rest of the team.

TT is just inconsistent. He played up to his contract through the Eastern Conf playoffs, then disappeared in the Finals.

As many have stated, defense has to get better, and we need to get younger. I think that could lead to better defense. I think derrick Williams can be a decent bench piece, I think he should have got more playoff minutes. We need a legit 5, TT needs to be a bench and energy guy. Maybe Edy is that guy. Having squandered 3 first round picks on scrubs like korver and mosgov have really handcuffed us in what we can do. Taking a guy like Harris over jokic hurts. I don't think PG13 is the answer nor Carmelo, both play lebrons position and now you traded away your best rebounder. I think we are done until warriors break up the band. We simply can't acquire what we need without wearing another area, draft was the only way. Else you end up with a nursing home for a bench

I don't think we're done, we've beaten this team with it's current roster, I have no doubt we could do it again. Hell, we could get Andrew Bogut back and he could be our rim protector. Losing him was one of the things that cost them last year.

You throw Iggy and Livingston into the mix and they are very hard to defend.. but it's not like you need to shut them down or hold them to 90 points to beat them. We scored 113, 113, 137, 120 on them...

We just have to make them work harder... they had 15-18 points a game in simple delayed fast break dunks for the simple reason that we didn't even get back to put ourselves in a position to defend. That's not about having elite defenders or the right scheme, it's just about hustle and the Cavs not falling asleep at times.

FWIW: Good thread. Not a basketball swami, but some reflections/reactions/ thoughts following a loss.

They had already achieved plenty. Some sacred cows need to be examined. This mix is wanting as a squad, and in the way it plays. Defense died last night when needed in the 4th. LBJ was incredible as often as he wanted to be, which was not always. TT played maybe his best game of playoffs, but it was long absent and long overdue. He grew some and showed up. The level of hustle was a thief. We got outrun and outshot by a more talented group who seemed to want it more. Our coach seems random; his bench has not produced as advertised. Whatever fixes better be made while LBJ has something left. When he sits, we become mediocre. I think we oversubbed and failed to gel. They put up an incredible string of scoring and rebounding. We didn't shut much down or get all the stops needed.
Losses are sad. Some grew up. JR, Kyrie, TT somewhat somewhat, and you can get some others who got tougher. Some are too old, some were too cold, and it wasn't enough. I think we caused them trouble early on working indoors. Then we fell in love with threes, one man ball, missed layups, turnovers, missed foul shots, and bad judgment. We chased. Sums it up. By comparison, we see how to be better. But the effort wasn't even and consistent. Not sure we need a bunch of new players, but they have to play harder much more than we did.

I think we already have the talent. We can play with those guys, but for some reason we just don't for long stretches. As others have said, we were outhustled, not getting back on D, not making open shots at critical times. We are however, a crappy turn of events in the 3rd game from returning to Cle for game 6. GS is a great team, but so are the Cavs.

I doubt that a “small market” sports franchise will ever have another dominant team - for instance multiple consecutive championships. The “rules” are stacked against small markets.

Being in several consecutive finals is as good as it’s gonna get for the Cavaliers. And this may have been the Cavs last Finals series for a generation.

There’s too much money involved. And the league basically loses billions of dollars when a New York or California or Boston or Chicago team isn’t involved.

I wish I was wrong. Or I wish I was a Yankee fan.

I'm lying. No I don't.

I agree that it's becoming more and more highly unlikely. There aren't many LeBrons in the world who will WANT to stay in a small market and will have the influence to draw other good players to that market.

Then the small market owner is going to have to be willing to absorb the extreme salaries it would take..

I think Lebron has a lot left, how old was Michael Jordan before he hung it up? Lebron said it himself last night, training is part of his lifestyle, he's as fanatical about his health as Tom Brady.

Dan Gilbert has never been shy with the check book trying to keep a team together.

quote above by Ted:

"Dan Gilbert has never been shy with the check book trying to keep a team together."

It's not about small market owners. Owners come and go. It's about larger scale economics.

For instance, the Yankees won 25 world championships during the 20th century. That's 25 out of 96 years (no championships in 1900, 1901, 1902 & 1994).

That's out of over 20 major league teams. The average team should have won four or five world championships during the same period.

You are assuming all teams are run the same way by effective people.

A lot of my points have been made, but here goes:

--I'm sad today because we lost. However, I am thankful that one of my teams is good enough to have made three straight Finals and won one of them.

--I do not think we should blow-up the roster.

--I do not think we should fire Lue.

--I do not think we should trade one of the big three.

--I think that David Griffin has made a series of very good moves and that Gilbert needs to do everything he can to retain him. I believe his contract is up at the end of June, but I could be wrong about the timing.

--I will defer to guys like Excel who know WAY MORE than I do about the cap and possibilities for obtaining new players. I do wonder [not sure] if we can make a few minor moves and bring in a couple of role players. If so, I'd like to see us get a big man who can get some boards and lay dudes out when they drive to the hole. I could care less if he can score at all. I think we can probably afford one of those types of guys. Bogut could have helped this year. We need a guy like that and there are usually a few of them available each year.

--I think that the team can compete w/Golden State and perhaps even beat them, but they are going to have to commit to playing better defense. I think they need to make it a point of emphasis during the season. Make it a strength. We simply cannot be in the Finals and have guys jogging back on D!!!

--I think the Cavs play best when they are passing it a lot. I hope that we tweak things a bit on offense and try to incorporate more ball movement. I want to see our slashers slash due to weaknesses in the D and our spot-up shooters have a ton of looks because the D is moving around so much. Nothing kills a defense more than ball movement.

--I hope we don't do anything drastic. I'm comfortable w/most of our pieces. Add a big who can rebound and be a rim protector, increase the defensive intensity, and rely a bit more on ball movement rather than Iso.

I can't wait for Cleveland vs Golden State IV: A New Hope

Or, Cleveland vs Golden State Part IV: Time to Even the Score!

Or Cleveland vs Golden State V, The Greatest Rivalry, Best of Five.

That is of course after we win it next season. Then in 10 years a Disney Movie is made about it.

I guess the days of the center are gone, but it seems to be we need to protect the rim a little better.

Ok, I will make my biggest "look ahead" comment now... if LeBron never wins another championship in Cleveland it will be HIS fault. His ego has decided that it is more important for him to be the highest paid player in the NBA than to win championships.

LeBron has a net worth north of $400 million and a lifetime deal with Nike... he currently eats up over $30 million a year in salary cap and he will want a raise every year the salary cap goes up. This is important to him.

He has the power to call a meeting with Griffin and Gilbert tomorrow, walk in and say, tear up my contract and rewrite it for $15 million a year for the next 5 years. With the caveat that Gilbert will use the other $15 million to find a couple better role players, bench depth, or put it toward another superstar... however Griffin feels best to spend it.

Using round numbers of LeBron's net worth at $400 million, LeBron has to ask himself this question... "Next June, do I want to have $430 million in the bank, 3 rings, and bragging rights as the highest paid player, or $415 million in the bank and 4 rings."

I don't think it's fair to say any of that. Sure, in a perfect world where all the rules are made to benefit Cleveland sports teams, you'd have Lebron willing to get paid $1 per year so we can use his normal salary to go get PG13 and someone else. That's just not practical and the union would be crazy pissed off about it too.

And if it backfires and they lose in the ECF against Boston or in the Finals against Golden State? Lebron gave up $15-30 million for nothing.

I think Griffin, assuming he's still with the team, improves where he can. Maybe we trade Kevin for PG13, but we'd then need massive help rebounding. We bring that team to the playoffs next year and see what happens. Heck, the Warriors were an inch away from not having KD a month+ back when he hyper-extended his knee. Who knows.

I do remember reading somethings years back about how LeBron wants to be the first billionaire player in sports. Not sure if he feels that way today. A lot of that might have been a 20 year old talking.

You are right, he could dump some salary to be spread out to bring in a player or two.

Just so everybody can get an idea, here's the salaries and such for 2018. For the most part these are guaranteed contracts that you just can't tear up, or re-coup if you cut somebody:



Even if Lebron were to somehow tear up his contract (which I don't even think you can do) and sign for the vet minimum (which the player's union would not be happy about), we'd still only have $5 million in cap space to sign anybody. That's not even a Mid-level Exception.

If so, we are a bit boxed in.

The top 4 players are just fine. After that is where we have question marks.

LeBron isn't going to become a billionaire because he makes an extra $45 million over the next 3 years... that's only 4.5% of a billion dollars. If he is going to get from his current place of +/- $400 million to a billion, it's going to be because his "brand" is significantly increased and continues to grow even after his retirement and the only way to do that.... is rings.

The fact that he has lost in the finals 5 times (even though most of it was not his fault) is arguably hurting his long term net worth more than making the finals and losing is helping it. Every time he loses in the finals more and more people scoff at the "LeBron is better than Jordan" argument.. and it is that comparison that will carry his net worth higher and higher after he retires... and right now, in most people's minds, that argument is dead... they have moved on to the new flavor of the month, which is KD.

Which is utterly stupid, but it's today's media for you. At this point, I really wouldn't fault Lebron if he just left and signed with Golden State. Because, according to the media, it doesn't matter how you get the title, it's just that you got it. That's the big reason why these dumb super-teams are formed. It doesn't matter how good the player is, if he can't beat a stacked roster and win a championship, then he's no good.

I'm surprised there hasn't been a movement to change the NBA logo since it features Jerry West. That dude lost in the Finals 8 times! What a loser! /sarcasm

I'm not sure what to do. We need to find a star who wants a championship and is willing to accept a little less. People think Wade will come here but he's making the money and I think the green is more important to him.

I don't know. Will be paying close attention to the roster moves. People like James Jones and etc, I don't see a fit here.

So who hates durant? Curry? Green? What we have is not enough. Not the way we play about half-speed by comparison to GS too often.

Can Sashi -speak help the Cavs?

LeBron is not going to become a billionaire playing basketball regardless of the amount of rings. The only tried and true way to grow your net worth is by investing. He's doing this with numerous venture like his game show production.